i’m just saying, that’s all:
nothing more, nothing less

On the third paragraph. I respect Kim and Richard and believe they are very smart but I have made coherent theologic rebutalls but their lack of address towards the Scriptures I mentioned shows how the same concern you have towards me (even though I do look at their “rational arguments” and to suggest otherwise is a misconception even though the appearance may look otherwise). Does that make sense? I have given theological reason why they are wrong and the response I get is no response. I believe it is understandable because the Scripture says about itself that it is “the sword of the Spirit able to discern soul and morrow” (I say this with no harshness or attack but to give you insight into the discussions I have had with them and how it has played out.)

Beth, I don’t want you to get the idea that all of us that believe the acting upon homosexuality are so harsh. I understand many more harsh than me on the subject have given us who believe the action is sin a bad name. I hope you appreciate the posts where I have shown my strong disagreement with them. I know many who have tried to help homosexuals away from the behavior did so with wrong motives. I just think we shouldn’t characterize the entire ministry with regard to this subject. I felt the same harshness you felt toward me with your response toward those who have helped people (some have been hurt but to deny those that have been helped seemed irrational). I know the process for us to come together on this is hard and difficult but I do believe if we truly love Christ this is necessary. That doesn’t change my belief on the subject in anyway but it does give me respect for you as a person. As you know we have appologized and I believe we can move forward. I want to apologize again for not following my mothers lead on this by having an attitude different than hers on this. My goal is to love the person but disapprove of the action. When the accurate disapproval of the action is greater than the love for the person then the love is not love. I would add (you will disagree) that when love for the person is greater than the accurate disapproval of the action that too is not love for love is not the condoning of sin. We disagree strongly between us but as a person Beth (even though I don’t approve nor ever will approve of homosexual behavior) I totally respect you and have the love of the Lord for you. Does this make sense? Do you sense my care for you? Do you know that I want all of us to have attitudes of repentence including myself on anything God says is wrong, that goes for our sins combined? Lets move forward and not have conversations clouded by what we appologized for between us. May God bless you Beth.

I can see you truly believe you’re being rational in what you say. I don’t want to get into another long argument here, but I am simply going to explain the background to some things you have mentioned, which I hope will help you understand where a lot of this is coming from.

Firstly, homophobia is not just about thugs and skinheads, it’s about an institutional attitude that runs through many societies. Not hating gay people and not wanting violence towards them does not stop ideas about the wrongness of homosexuality being homophobic. Any views that consider homosexual people to have different rights, responsibilities or status because of their sexuality are homophobic. Just because an idea is based in a sincerely-held religious belief does not stop it being homophobic. It’s on this basis that I consider your views to be homophobic, and I don’t consider that to be a harsh judgement to have made.

Secondly, yes, you did cite CDC, but can’t you see that a big part of the problem is that you then refused to accept any statistics from other reputable sources which appeared to contradict what you said? Richard B (I think it was he?) and I offered figures from e.g. the Terrence Higgins Trust and the WHO, which you appeared not to want to accept. In this light, can you understand why people are frustrated and consider that you are incapable of listening to reasoned arguments? I accept the CDC statistics whilst a) seeing that they do not give the whole picture, even for the US, and certainly not worldwide, and b) not accepting that they say what you think they say about the dangers of homosexuality. But you apparently would not even accept the statistics offered in rebuttal. You certainly refused to deal with what they said about the correctness of your argument.

Thirdly, there are people on connexions and elsewhere who are very, very profound theological thinkers and who really know what they’re talking about as far as the Bible is concerned. I’m thinking primarily, of course, of Kim at connexions. But when such people make coherent arguments based on their own knowledge and understanding, you have a habit of rubbishing them in a single sentence, rather than engaging with what they’re saying and trying to show good theological reasons why they are wrong. If you don’t agree with them, that’s absolutely fine, but to me it seems that you do not accord their arguments any respect in your disagreement. This makes it look as though you are absolutely entrenched in your own ideas, to the exclusion of all rational argument and thought - as though even God himself coming down to tell you you’re wrong wouldn’t move you! Do you see my point?

I hope this goes some way towards explaining people’s (or at least my own) frustration with your style of argument.

All the best,

Beth

This post is about a bad law that punatively thwarts children and adults. I have written about adoption before, and I’ve written about Canadian laws. Go read Richard’s experience at his blog. This is not theoretical stuff.

There are 150 thousand children in the US that need parents. There are about 80 thousand in Canada.
Kids that need homes, need parents.

I couldn’t care less if you agree with me about the law, say so and move on. I couldn’t care less if my experience or Richard’s experience is meaningless to you, say so and move on. Agreeing is a none issue, disagree and move on.

I believe your apologies are sincere, I believe you don’t need to play the resident fundamentalist. I think you have the ability to listen and be part of an online community. I respect you for going to blogs from other countries to learn to communicate outside your experience.

But I’ve had it with this homosexual fixation of yours.
I’ve just about had it with the labels you put on people. I’ve been to the states enough to know that is your cultural reality, and I’ve tried to cut you slack.

I don’t know if I can anymore DH. We might be further ahead to keep your conversations at connexions where there are more eyes available to help you listen, hear what you are saying and how you are saying it without you feeling picked on. And more eyes that understand your culture and exercise patience. And eyes and ears that will help me not to fall into poor communication traps.

My frustration is cumulative DH, not limited to this thread and I honestly don’t know yet as owner of this blog what I need to do about it.

Beth, I too don’t want to upset people. We may be different but I still respect you as a person and have never thought any differently in every comment I have made. What I said didn’t relate the attitude I truly had behind the response and that is totally my fault and I take responsibility for it. May God forgive me for how I said what I said like Paul says about words “Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.” I never intended for people to quarrel about words but I do think people can speak what they think in love. I may think certain actions are sin but that doesn’t change my love for them. I’m reminded of the story I referenced between my Mom and certain members of the homosexual community. They in turn respected my mom and at the same time understood that my mom didn’t believe their actions were proper. I long for this type of attitude without the clouds around the subject. I appologize for contributing to those clouds. I try not to but we all fail just as Beth referenced as well “…I have expressed myself in such a way as to upset people.” However, I take the stronger blame for this. Beth, we may disagree but will you forgive me. We can come together on this withn our disagreement. I disagree strongly with you but I even more strongly respect you as a person. May God bless you Beth and may you know God even more in the future. I definitely didn’t mean to make you feel sick. I appologize. Bene, I still feel a little singled out and am trying to figure otu what I said in this particular thread.

BeneD - I’m afraid I can’t apologise for most of the remainder of what I’ve said here. I meant it quite literally when I said that such attitudes make me feel sick. But I do apologise that I have let my feelings get the better of me and that I have expressed myself in such a way as to upset people.

Asexual, transexual, homosexual, hetrosexual, bi-sexual, ambiguous genitalia, intersex, sexual dysfunction and disorders. Unfit parents?

Beth: FYI - read the site policy for BDBO, okay? You are welcome - express yourself passionately  - the policy only asks you be respectful to yourself and others. The readership here is extremely diverse, over 100 countries, media people use this as a source site, people come with various interests and from many cultures and not all are religious; some are of no faith or Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc. and I don’t personally see courtesy in BDBO comment threads as an option.

My experience indicates DH can’t stop Beth, his obsession with homosexuality cuts off discussion and people have learned they can’t have conversations without DH reading things into what they are attempting to say - his preaching and crushing others leads even patient, emotionally readers to find difficult to remain civil.

He has indicated a willingness to read, but there is fixated ideation and I don’t know how to help him listen to others and show respect. He preaches at others here and at other blogs without listening - even none sexual topics. If I ask him to stop he blames other commenters, and they leave because they don’t need the hassle. I dont think DH grasps this blog is centrist and that mature and respectful disagreement is allowed.

DH, I don’t want to block you, but to come home to this - again - is depressing and I’m worn out. What do you think we can do to help you stop harming your position and others?

Britain

*sigh*

There are children - from babies to pre-teens -
in Canada, in Great Britan, in the U. S. of A… and right around this world God created -
who need the love that a parent - or parents - can give.

What does a parent’s same or opposite sex relationship have to do with their ability to parent that child? (Other than two people can (often) support each other in those moments when parenting makes one want to rip one’s hair out. *chuckle*)

My experience as a sibling to one who was adopted into our family, as an adoptive parent… and as a birth parent… says to me - in all of three of those cases - that what I desperately want is to make sure that the person being adopted is safe, healthy and loved - and has the chance to become the person that God calls them to be.

For me - if two people in a loving, covenanted relationship - be it two daddies, two mommies, or a mommy and a daddy - can offer that - then I’ll support their desire to parent.

Blessings and peace - Richard B.

I avoided that mess at connexions for a reason. Anyhow, I sincerely hope you don’t think I regard homosexuals as second-class citizens and/or responsible for AIDS.