I believe there are two great hungers in the world today. One is for spiritual integrity. The other is for social justice. And the connection between the two is what the world is waiting for. And I see crowds like this across the country who don’t know there are so many other people who feel the way they do, who are thinking the same things… and I hope you go away tonight feeling “I am not alone any more.”
Conference today in Washington D.C. sponsored by leaders of the religious right and the most right wing leaders of the Republican party, and it was called The War on Christians. I’m concerned too–I’ve got a 7 year old and a 3 year old. My son called me on my cell phone earlier and said, “Dad, I want to talk about baseball.” Wallis coaches son’s Little League team and there’s a game on Saturday. Says “I am concerned about the moral pollution of this culture. Parenting indeed in this culture has become a counter-cultural activity whether you are liberal or conservative. I care about the dignity and sacredness of human life. I care about family values. But you know what? It seems funny to me that the richest and most powerful religious leaders in America were in Washington, with their allies who are running the government of the world’s most powerful nation, and they said there’s a way, against them.
The real war is against half of God’s children. Three billion people who live on less than two dollars a day, who are not on our agenda, and were certainly not on the agenda today at that conference.
Report on Jim Wallis‘ speech in Ohio March 28th, 2006. (Sojourners is not a user friendly site!) I’ve haven’t been able to find the text of his speech online yet.
The Canadian equivalent of a War on Christians (Vision America) leader would be Tristan Emmanuel of Equipping Christians for the Public Square. (ECP Center)
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The irony of it all is so frustrating. The richest and most powerful people on Earth complain about persecution while ignoring the actual poor and persecuted. The DC conference, like many other such events, was intended to scare people into supporting a political party. It had little to do with Christ at all.
I visited the link you included to read some more about the supposed war on Christians. The rhetoric reminded me of the Minute Man project website - http://www.minutemanproject.com
The MMP speaks of Mexican immigrants as “invading armies” and “mobs” making “anarchist demands” and declaring “We demand your rights! We demand your jobs! We demand your future!”
This is all intended to frighten people and foment hatred. And for that reason, it’s hard to blame those that follow along, because they’re being deceived. It’s not easy to see through such cunning personalities.
I saw a southern US border ‘minuteman’ say that if illegal immigrants didn’t leave there would be civil war. He didn’t look like the type that would pick lettuce or clean homes.
11 million is the approximate estimate of illegals in the US - they didn’t show up overnight. They are the new scapegoats or new ‘communists’ of a new ‘cold war.’ All the rhetoric is geared for fear.
As for some of the religious right - cultural warrior and Christian aren’t the same thing, in most cases not even close. You are correct Drina, a lot of people are being deceived, and it’s sad.
I personally believe we can focus on “cultural issues” as well as the needs for the poor at the same time. The left continues to promote things that are contrary to Scripture and the right needs to do more for the poor. So I’m in agreement but not to the extrent and emphesis that Wallis is saying. He still seems to downgrade the “moral problems” or focusing on one moral problem rather than all of them.
On immigration. I’m for immigration just legal immigration. I also support a way for an easier way for immigrants to come and work but not to the extent of Bush with the amnesty problems. Why do we have to say to people who violated the law “that’s okay you broke the law”? What standard is that? We need to have people repsect the law. I think we need to do more to help people to immigrate legally and at the same time crack down on ILLEGAL immigration. To say this is a “race issue” when legal immigrants are upset at those protesting seems obsurd to me.
Do you really believe that immigrants are invading occupiers that demand your future?
There is a post that addresses the larger citizenship of our neighbours to the south that goes beyond law, beyond denomination to address our real citizenhip and our roles as ambassadors of reconciliation, that is is clarion call to anyone who claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ.
The first person I read to stand against wrong political response and poor law was a Catholic leader and he is being joined now by others. And this post provides some practicalities, to help people go beyond being too heavenly minded to be little earthly good, or so earthly minded they lose sight of their real kingdom.
http://onlyimagine.blogspot.com/2006/04/sermon-aliens-among-us.html
Poor law? What poor law. There has to be regulations to allow for legal immigration but at the same time limit it to a point.
Drina, I never said or thought that immigrants are invading occupiers. In fact if you reread my post I mentioned LEGAL immigration. Also, I have seen many LEGAL immigrants who are very upset that there are protests going on and who very much against illegal immigration. You need to rethink your response on that one for I gave no impression or thought or implied invading occupiers. Protection of our borders? yes but that is different than the extreme invading occupiers.
[The first person I read to stand against wrong political response and poor law was a Catholic leader and he is being joined now by others.]
Bene, it’s great that some Christian leaders are standing up for the least of us.
[I never said or thought that immigrants are invading occupiers.]
DH, your previous post brushed off everything I said in mine and changed the focus of the discussion. What other conclusion can I make than that you support the Minuteman Project?
Did I ever say that I support the minuteman project? All of what I said was in relation to illegal immigration not the minuteman project. The reason I responded is that people look at the extremist within the camp against illegal immigration and project that onto those like myself. All I was addressing was that we need to do more against illegal immigration and it appears those who are protesting in CA and the like want things that make totally open borders. Thats all.
When I first mentioned immigration, it was in the context of the Minuteman Projects use of fear-inducing rhetoric and hyperbole. I’m curious as to why you changed the subject.
Because you changed the subject to Minuteman projects, an extreme group, implying that my position is extreme when it is not. To me the protests going on ARE reminescent of some of the anarchy protests in other countries. We need to be honest on that. Tat is not to say I 100% support Minuteman projects in that they have problems with even legal immigration as a whole but to lump the two together, my position with minuteman projects in light of legal immigrants being upset at illegal immigrants protesting, seems strange to me.
I was comparing the wild and emotional rhetoric of the Minuteman Project with that of the War on Christians conference, which have strong similarities. Both are intended to arouse fear and animosity.
I don’t know about animosity when legal immigrants are very, very upset about illegal immigration. I personally believe that the protest ARE intended to arose fear. I believe it started with the protests. The fact remains illegal immigrants need to stop breaking the law and coming over to America. Can we make the laws a little easier so there can be more legal immigration? absolutely However, I believe that the problem with illegal immigration is too so great that something needs to be done.
Again, I’m don’t have any animosity towards legal immigrants but I do have major problems with illegal immigration. Do I believe that ministries can help those people who are illegals in America? yes and I too have been involved in those ministries but that doesn’t change my support for the Immigration Department, legal immigration and laws that show a stand toward the rule of law against illegal immigration.
Again, this isn’t fear and animosity. If it was than you wouldn’t see legal immigrants so upset and probably even more than US nationals. If you came across an average legal immigrant from Guatemala or any other third world country and asked them what they think about illegal immigration you will get a harsh answer toward. From me I would be upset but not harsh. This “attitude” is never acknowledged by those who want no restrictions at all. Why do they want no restrictions at all? I have no idea it makes no logical sense.
protests were refering to the immigrants protest not the other protests. Sorry for the promotion of confusion on my part.
Just found this out today. What do you all think? I personally like it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12184299/
[Again, this isn’t fear and animosity.]
What then do you make of the Minuteman Projects statements that I quoted?
What do you make of people who say we need to crack down on illegal immigration? I believe if people want to monitor people and help border patrols crack down on illegal immigration I feel that is okay. I at the same time believe we need to make ways for legal immigration. To me it is equivilent to people who turn crimals in. To me they the two views cracking down on illegal immigration vs. making legal immigration easier don’t have to be mutually exclusive. For me it is all about the rule of law.
Your response was evasive and didn’t answer my question. Again, what then do you make of the Minuteman Projects statements that I quoted?
I see absolutely no connection between minuteman project and war on Christians conference. With regard to my support and disagreement with the minuteman project I feel I have answered that as well. What other answers are you looking for? Have I answered your questions and do you have any additional questions?
Where did you answer my question? I asked, what do you make of the Minuteman Projects statements that I quoted? I believe their statements are radical and intended to promote fear and animosity. Thoughts?
I answered and said I believe that they are radical and promote fear and I answered and said they were extreme. However, I mentioned that I support some of their things that happen to not be radical. To me monitoring the border, the protests by immigrants being similar to anarchy protests, etc. I do support. I believe lumping legals with illegals like the minuteman project and not supporting somewhat easier way for people to come legally is where I diverge from minuteman. These are my thoughts on minuteman and I believe they are extreme. I think at the same time you need to reread my previous posts to understand my views which are not extreme.
So you acknowledge that the Minuteman Project is radical and uses extreme rhetoric, which is good. I’m not used to seeing this kind of honesty and candor from you, so I’m very impressed. What then do you make of the WOC rhetoric, which is the topic of Bene’s post? It is similar to the MP’s in that it promotes fear and loathing of entire group of people.
This may be off-topic, but why is it that when non-conservatives stage demonstrations, they are characterized as anarchy protests, but the same standard is not applied to conservative-friendly protests?
I must clarify I do believe they are extreme but at the same time I agree with them with regard to the wall, stronger borders, and their view on amnesty. I disagree with them with regard to my view that there are to be somewhat earier ways legally to immigrate as long as they contributing to society by working.
Also, with regard to the protests it isn’t a conservative/non-conservative thing. Whe people raise the Mexican flag in their protest it shows to me a strong form of anarchy in my opinion. If there were no Mexican flags flown in the first place I might have had a different view but this is different.
I don’t agree that it promotes fear and loathing in that they are not against some loosening of the immigration to accomodate legal immigration. That is the difference we cannot condone illegal immigration but at the same time make the legal part somewhat earier. How about the legal immigrants who are against the protests they are part of minority group of people, immigrants? That is the issue illegal. Legal immigrants? I’m ALL for. We have a major problem with illegal immigration and something must be done or it is going to get worse to the point where the US cannot contain all of these undocumented people. That isn’t fear but a reality. 10 years ago they ammnestied 1 million undocumented workers thinking that that would stop the problem now we have at least 5 million or more. What do we do have open borders? That is what is obsurd and that is what the protestors want. The result would be anarchy if they got what they want.
My view in no way condemns legal immigrants. Some who are against are against immigration all together. I’m for immigration just legally. Question: Do you think letting illegal immigrants in is fair to those who came here legally? Also, do you think it is fair in light of people who want to come here when people come here illegally just because it is on the border?
Do you think these are race issues, Drina, in light of these things that are unfair?
Also, Drina, what is this conservative/non- conservative thing? My view is not based on any predisposition. It is based on what is fair and what is best for the citizens.
[If there were no Mexican flags flown in the first place I might have had a different view but this is different.]
What do you make of the march on the mall, in which hundreds of thousands waved American flags in support of immigrants?
[I don’t agree that it promotes fear and loathing in that they are not against some loosening of the immigration to accomodate legal immigration.]
I find this a little hard to believe. Calling immigrants “mobs” who “demand you future” doesn’t promote fear and loathing. Come on, dh, be reasonable.
[The result would be anarchy if they got what they want.]
You’re sounding more and more like a Minuteman here, making wild threats and trying to scare people into supporting your position.
Words to live by…
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=31&search=Leviticus 19:33-34
I think you misunderstood me. I support the wall, stronger borders to keep ILLEGALS out. At the same time I’m for waysfor people to come over legally easier.
Also, Drina, you didn’t answer my questions: “Do you think letting illegal immigrants in is fair to those who came here legally? Also, do you think it is fair in light of people who want to come here when people come here illegally just because it is on the border?
Do you think these are race issues, Drina, in light of these things that are unfair?”
My wife is from Asia and is way more moderate than me and she mentioned that what about letting people come here illegally is fair to those who worked hard and came here legally? Also, how isit fair that people come illegally just bacause they border a country like the US? How about those in other third world countries outside of the border who are following the proceedures? I think when you honestly address these questions you will see your race associations breakdown?
I probably should wait to answer your questions until you answer mine, but in courtesy I’ll go first.
[Do you think letting illegal immigrants in is fair to those who came here legally?]
As a Christian, I’m not really interested in what’s fair, because God isn’t interested in what’s fair. Grace makes life not fair. God tells us to treat aliens like our native-born, and I believe that’s the only appropriate response for a Christian. Of course, our government is a secular one, so I can’t expect it to do the right thing. But what I can do is express my personal beliefs concerning the matter.
[Do you think these are race issues, Drina, in light of these things that are unfair?”]
Your question isn’t very clear, but I do believe this is, in part, a race issue. Listening to proponents of deportation talk about the “evil” of multiculturalism forces me to consider the race factor.
I guess for me we must define alien for me alien is legal immigrants not illegal immigrants. For me Grace IS fair in that it requires us to respond. I believe caring for the poor and needy IS fair. So to say God isn’t interested in fair seems a stretch.
A minority of proponents of deportation call “multiculturalism” as “evil”. I know many, many more people who came over legally who support deportation. To say in anovergeneralized way that supporting deportation is “race or cultural” is astretch in light of the overwhelming support for LEGAL immigration.
I’m all for treating legal immigrants as native born. So to suggest God wants illegals treated the same way is a stretch. Also, there are times that God told the Israelites to do something different than treating them as native-born. I think theonly thing that rectifies the issue isthe legal part. When God told theIsraelites to do something different than treating them asnative-born it was because they were breaking God’s law by worshipping idols and they deceived (sinned) to stay as well. For me the similarities in support legal immigration and being against immigration are overwhelmingly supported in Scripture. Deportation by the Israelities occured and was authorized by God in the bible and there were reasons that were understandable and don’t go against the Leviticus passage due to the understood part of the people who are aliens not deceiving, breaking the law, etc.
[I guess for me we must define alien for me alien is legal immigrants not illegal immigrants.]
I find this to be a little too convenient.
[So to say God isn’t interested in fair seems a stretch.]
No, it’s not a stretch. Grace makes life unfair. Without it, we would all get what we deserve. You and I would both suffer the eternal consequences of our actions. Our lives would be ruled by fairness. But grace nullifies fairness.
[A minority of proponents of deportation call “multiculturalism” as “evil”.]
I have no reason to believe this statement.
[I’m all for treating legal immigrants as native born. So to suggest God wants illegals treated the same way is a stretch.]
It’s not a stretch unless you want it to be.
It isn’t convenient in light of God in the OT sending those who were aliens who went against God, deceivedthe Israelities and the like. So is it astretch in light of what God did in the OT?
Fair is defined by God not by us. I agree in the physical natural by our sin we deserve eternal damnation but by Grace through Faith we deserve Salvation. Yes it seems unfair but in God’s eyes it is fair in light of what He did on the cross and His resurrection and the Salvation we have by Faith in what Christ did.
God doesn’t condone illegal activity.
I don’t see any understanding in anywayaswhy weshould treat legal immigrants and illegal immigrants the same way.
To say it isn’t a minority is wrong in light of theoutrage that legal immigrants and non-US Born citizens.
I just don’t appreciate overgeneralizations and we should look at ALL scripture in light of scripture.
We should treat immigrants like our native-born because God told us to. He didn’t add a qualifier; you did. You may not see this as being fair, but your idea of fairness isn’t God’s idea of fairness. Don’t blame this rush to deport these people on God.
I agree weshould treat immigrants like native born and those immigrantsare legal immigran, those who didn’t violate laws or came here through deception. God makes the clarification on those aliens who were in Israel based on deception. The Bible shows they were “sent away” (they happened to travel to modern day Jordon and Saudia Arabia).
Again you are neglecting what God did with regard to those who used deception. If you want to be truly consistent with scripture you would see how God looks at illegal and legal immigration differently. Don’t say God doesn’t want illegal immigrants to not be deported. Yuor idea of fairness is not God’s idea of fairness.
I do what God told us as well as follow God by doing what He showed us to do with regard to deceptors and the like.
This is like watching a game of tennis!!!!
Reminds me of something Ovide Mercredi (former Grand Chief of the Assembly of First Nations here in Canada) said a few years ago. Someone asked him what he thought of the new immigration policies which the current government was bringing in - they were tougher and more restrictive, of course - and he replied “Really good - too bad they’re five hundred years too late!”
[Don’t say God doesn’t want illegal immigrants to not be deported. ]
The desire to deport illegal immigrants does not come from God. Do not put words into God’s mouth. It is a sin and an abomination.
True Tim!
I often wake up and find DH has left three or four comments, essentially talking to a post, and by extension himself.
I appreciate Drina’s patience and outstanding communication skills, any thread she participates in is in very good hands.:^)
Bene, sorry for taking over so many of your threads! I sometimes get so wrapped up in a discussion that I fail to realize that this is not my website, especially when the exchanges get serious.
::lowers head::
Perhaps I should take a break on this one? I can’t say I haven’t felt exhasperated trying to answer non-existant Bible verses. I’m a sucker.
Drina:
I don’t see you taking over threads! I see you taking a burden off me with DH’s needs and teaching me grace.
Hold your head up high, please.
I am delighted you are here, and are so willing to engage with thoughtfulness and the steely strength of meekness. At the same time I don’t wish to see you worn down, so on this particular thread I shall do what I’ve done once before, instead of expecting you do what I should do as the blog owner from time to time.;^)
DH, it’s time to move on. This discussion is closed.