The Charles McVety, Garth Turner debate

Garth Turner  (Conservative MP-Halton) and Charles McVety had at it on the Micheal Coren show this evening.

Halton MP Garth Turner has been targeted by the head of Defend Marriage Canada, to make a long story short.

Update: 14/09/06 Here you go. The video, so you won’t have to take my word for it.

Segment One

Micheal Coren framed the discussion between the debate about moral and social conservatives – the division between Conservatives.

Charles McVety started off saying he had a number of issues with Turner.

1) The MP attacked Steven Harper and his values
2) The MP had called McVety and his friends Taliban and evil flowers
3) He did not believe Turner espoused demographic principles
4) McVety started his national campaign to espouse moral views
5) McVety focus is to put forth a moral point of view

Segment 2

Again the distinctions between divisions in conservatism were stressed. It was Garth Turners turn.

1) I have no problem with moral conservatism, I serve a constituency, they are who I answer to.
2) I don’t attack Steven Harper, I have a brain and I will disagree on issues and when I do I will say, just so like I would expect anyone to say so.
3) My difficulties with Charles is that I am asking him to please be more accurate, he pulls selective things and glues them to my face.
4) I have no trouble with MP’s that may be elected to advance a single issue, this is a democracy, but I do not view the world monochromatically.
5) Turner says in hindsight he should not have used the word Taliban regarding McVety’s tactics, he has explained why he used it on his blog and explained again on the show.
Turner stated he believes there can be serious problems in a society when ideology dictates policy.
6) Turner explained the poetic reference to Fleur de mal and one of his favorite poets, and how McVety translated it into an English talking point, flowers of evil.

Segment 3

It was McVety on the attack. (trying to attack, he fell surprising flat for a friendly venue) The more I listened to the man, the less credibility he had. I think I sat down to watch this fairly, but unfortunately McVety reinforced all that I distrust about his agenda and methodology, after awhile the ‘how’ of the religious right methods are quite clear. I think there are times you need to give someone enough rope to hang themselves.

He keep trying to make ‘you’ accusations, while Turner responded with ’I’ statements. If I didn’t take McVety’s determination, connections, finanancing and drive so seriously this would have been funny. One of the things he used continuously throughout the show was the verbal hammer.

Doesn’t matter, Turner was gracious, clear, gave ground, and did not mock. I think in debates where the issues are so polorizing, I would not have been as patient; impatience only gives ground to the authoritarianism of fundamentalism.

McVety:

1) The spin isn’t working, you mention me and Defend Marriage Canada 130 times on your website
2) You continue on your blog rage against me
3) You are an atheist
4) be a man and stand up

Segment 4

I credit Coren, he was an fair moderator and asked Turner why he and McVety were at loggerheads. It was a bit of humour in what really wasn’t a discussion. Both guests were given ample time to make their points. 

McVety went off again, as if he hadn’t heard a word that had been said.

1) I ask you not to go into senseless name calling, but you are the one that called us Taliban, flowers of evil and wrote about us drinking the kool aid.

(Coren broke in and gave Turner the opportunity to point out he has a blog and people can check this out for themselves)

2) If you called homosexual people Taliban, flowers of evil you’d be ousted
3) You make us Christians sound evil, we’re nice guys
4) You call us intolerant, when the broader issue here is a civil debate
5) We can get into a debate, but you aren’t religious

Again Coren gave Turner time to respond, and he pointed out McVety needed to be clear (having watched this, it wouldn’t have mattered how many times that point was made!)

Turner reminded McVety he was the only MP to defend an MP of faith (Maurice Vellacott) when he got himself into difficulty for something he said. He reiterated that he is open (TV, radio, print, blog) and believes MP’s get elected from all walks of life, and it is important we do not have a government where those serving come out of a cookie cutter. (Nice one!)

McVety ended the segment with an attack saying Turner was the one fostering a conspiracy, the flip side was true, Turner just had a liberal agenda. It was patently apparent he is very good at making his point, very good at attacking others, very good at repetition but not very good at conversational flexibility or listening. I think he is more comfortable in a pulpit with a captive audience, here he was in a round table with two very intelligent people and it was a bit disconcerting to watch him repeat things without much substance.

Segment 5

McVety went right back at it.

1) Turner is a half conservative, like libertarians who are against marriage, they don’t espouse traditional conservatism
2) You attack Harper and Harper is fighting for marriage.

Then it almost turned into a discussion. Both Coren and Turner clarified the fall vote, with Turner telling McVety he does not believe it should be re-opened even though he thinks the Liberals debate was shallow and too short. Both Coren and Turner made it clear Harper is not ‘fighting’ for marriage the way McVety attempted to make Harper sound.

And again, Turner asked McVety to be clear and careful about what he says (lost cause!) and looked him in the eye saying, “Charles, I am not pro same sex or anti marriage.”

When Turner mentioned his meeting earlier that day both Coren and McVety were surprised the faith leaders told Turner they’d be praying from him, that sounded contemptuous to McVety.
(That was a no win for sure, the fact McVety holds public prayer meetings to further his political base or the fact he has people praying for him got a bit lost here)

Turner clarified, Coren was fine with it and McVety went barrelling down the track.

McVety says with Bill C-38:

1) clergy are exposed now,
2) they have zero protection,
3) your faith leaders (Halton) you spoke with today are exposed
4) mentioned as an example the Knights of Columbus Hall in BC

Even Coren step into clarify and correct McVety on that one.

McVety went right on scolding.

1) There is no protection and you (Turner) as an MP should know that
2) You keep doing the classic liberal spin, saying one thing and doing another
3) You are outspoken against marriage

and he went off again about the Taliban and flowers of evil and attacking Harper.

Turner spoke about his marriage, clarified his position, his history with the Conservative Party and said he was voting not to reopen the issue.

Segment 6 

 McVety:

1) You actions speak louder than your words, this is just spin, you are against marriage, so why not just take off the red jacket and put the blue liberal one on.
2) You have a sense of entitlement
3) You attacked D’Arcy Keene like he was the devil incarnate
4) You attack people who challenge your entitlement
5) You demonize others

(McVety kept on and on about the Taliban and flowers of evil – it’s politics - clarification or apology doesn’t suit his POV, he was like a kid stuck on a point, like a hurt child, it has gotten him a lot of face time and mileage)

6) Defend Marriage Canada has had 300 rallies around the country with about 2 thousand people attending and he repeated his top points.
7) You over react to Christians
You have to make sure you shut people down who don’t agree with you
Segment 7

There was a drift toward the Ontario liberal government education and back to federal issues. Turner clarified he had some trouble with the judiciary at the top of the mountain in Canadian politics, acknowledged it is a fallout from the Trudeau area and would like to see a return to parliamentary supremacy.

McVety:

1) Defend Marriage Canada has had 300 rallies around the country with about 2 thousand people attending and he repeated his top points.
2) It’s open season on Christians

Again, I give Coren credit, he was extremely fair, understood the issues well, and gave each guest time for clarification without interruption and the discussion about differences in the Conservative camp was understood.

Turner basically ended by again asking McVety to be very clear about what he said and what he accused him of. He ended with his concern that in our culture we are seeing a death of tolerance.

These are hand scribbled notes, not a transcript, and any mistakes are mine.
I’m glad it was Coren who moderated this, I don’t know if this would have worked on most political shows.
One thing for sure, McVety/Turner are going to be polarizers until this vote is taken.  I think the people of Halton have elected a good MP who is serving them well.