I’m sorry you feel that way Jared.

“I only meant to comment on the characterization of the SBC’s stance on homosexuality as hate speech, and rather than respond to my claim (that saying something the Bible calls sin is sin is not hateful)”

Read SBC leaders, read SBC blogs.
Read the Cdn SBC.
Read Soulforce, Tuscano, Straight Not Narrow, the Baptist Press.

While we understandably differ on what hate speech is, I have no trouble with your opinion, if my commenters do, you are a grown up. Engage accordingly.

I honestly don’t believe SBC leadership is interested in seeing past ’sin as behavior’.

Spent time in the US in November, had a great time, assuming I perceive my neighbours as stupid, oppressed or ignorant is obviously a strongly held opinion for you that I’m not going to be able to refute. If you need to discuss feeling put down, you know where to reach me, it must be very uncomfortable to feel and believe you are perceived that way.

This post is about SoulForce - do I commend the (SBC) students that provided water for riders that stood vigil during the arrests? You bet.

I’m talking about the SBC as a block, organization, denomination and business - a group with a history and leadership that is following the classic Allport model.

There was a similar incident in the Catholic Church last month involving Ava Marie University. The provost (Fr. Fessio) made a statement similar to Mohlers at California Catholic.

http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=89297ac1-a1d8-404c-aed7-d623bd9f98cd

The uproar was immediate and vocal. The facts aren’t fully available, he was rehired within 24 hours in a different position. Is it reasonable for students and faculty to assume what he said may have had something to do with him getting the boot?

You hear me saying “homosexuality is a sin” is hate speech.
I am not.
I am saying homosexuality is not a sin.
Heterosexuality is not a sin.
Asexuality is not a sin.
Intersex is not a sin.

“something the Bible calls sin is sin is not hateful”

I agree with that statement.

As for being ‘peacefully insulted’, I’m sorry you feel that way.
Blog on!

What I have found, in your forum especially Bene, is that “this conversation” cannot be had b/c people like “us” are always assumed to be speaking from a box of bigotry or culturalization or what have you that is not as enlightened or peaceful as yours. It’s a very weird feeling, let me tell you. I encounter it every time I attempt speaking up for the side you’re criticizing. This sort of generalizing, stereotyping prejudice in the guise of doing the opposite is bizarre.

I only meant to comment on the characterization of the SBC’s stance on homosexuality as hate speech, and rather than respond to my claim (that saying something the Bible calls sin is sin is not hateful), I have to be informed that I’m only yielding to culture pressure or whatever. It’s insulting.
Apparently I’m too stupid or too oppressed in my ignorance to actually have a point. And that is why I’m done being “peacefully insulted” by your site.

The SBC is merely an example - position: sin.

End of discussion.
It is not possible to re-frame.
While Al Mohler may have thought past the unthinkable, and mused about choice and nature, he caught heavy flack from his own, as well as many outside his circle of influence who strongly object to his projection homosexuality may be a requested genetic modification in utero someday. Until then, the SBC is happy to accept reparative therapy, regardless of the cost to lives, families and congegations - out of sight out of mind.
This denomination demands followers accept the bible as inerrant, most branches of Baptists do not.

As for SoulForce Equality Riders being arrested for being on private property, it is a significant choice of their civil disobedience.
The colleges and seminaries are made aware they are coming.
At least this seminary didn’t have police officers on the rooftops.

Possibility of discussion is as closed as the culture and the church doors, congregants are so conditioned to think of behavior and the other, many find framing the debate past ‘it’s sin’ very frightening. These beliefs are sincerely held, the deafness to the overt bigotry of leadership is very real.

Information is no longer top down, no longer controlled by a few, however, as Travis pointed out, SBC’ers of conscience really are not free to speak without repercussion.

There are about 234 SBC churches in Canada with approximately 11,500 members, They maintain ties with the SBC International Mission Board.
Like southern counterparts, emphasis is heavy on evangelicsm, innerrancy, church numbers, Christian schools and/or homeschooling.
The CCSB resolution of marriage (re: C-38 and C-250) says the bible has only one kind of marriage. CCSB concern was genuine there would will be criminalization of religious speech if C-250 passed.
I have not seen the level of bigoted, rigid hate speech coming from the CCSB that I see coming from SBC leadership in the US.
Nor have we seen CCSB fears come to pass.

Theological and psychological arguements aside for those of us who live in the real world, anyone ‘uneducated’ person like me who reads about the arrests will draw one conclusion - that gays and lesbians are not welcome.

Science is finding genetic links to homosexuality. Not all have the gene, some choose it as a lifestyle, but why pick on them? Why not go after adulterers and ban them? or gluttony and ban all obese people? (they may have a genetic component too). Depression is an illness, not a sin. Yet many churches reject medication as a treatment for mental illness and shun individuals with serious mental illness in their church.

What about people who are born with both genitilia? They have to make a choice at some point in their life. Are they not God’s creation?

No matter what spin anyone want to put on it, that incident appears to the public to show intolerance towards a group of individuals.

SBC leadership remarks stand on their own, it is the responsibility of members to draw their own conclusions and hold each other accountable.

I’m not familar with Tim Hardaway, and last I checked Ann Coulters claims of what church she supposedly goes to were utterly bogus.

If you have evidence to the contrary that SBC leadership isn’t actively engaged in hate toward homosexuals, show me.

I’m not talking about sexual behavior, I’m talking about hate toward homosexuals and lesbians. Feel free to use the Allport model.

This is definitely the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all day and it’s, perhaps, the most ridiculous thing I’ve read all week.

Hatred of homosexuals is how YOU (mis)construe the SBC’s position on homosexual behavior. Sure, anyone can find a rogue pastor in any organization who truly hates homosexuality and isn’t afraid to show it. There’s Tim Hardaways and Ann Coulters behind pulpits all over the place, but the blanket statement you made above is simply ignorant.

Hate speech is a controversial term for speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height,weight, and hair color).
The term covers written as well as oral communication and some forms of behaviors in a public setting.

Allport’s Scale (1954) The Nature of Prejudice

Allport’s Scale of Prejudice in a Society goes from 1 – 5.

Scale 1 Antilocution:
Antilocution means a majority group freely make jokes about a minority group. Speech is in terms of negative stereotypes and negative images. This is also called hate speech. It is commonly seen as harmless by the majority. Antilocution itself may not be harmful, but it sets the stage for more severe outlets for prejudice.

Scale 2 Avoidance:
People in a minority group are actively avoided by members of the majority group. No direct harm may be intended, but harm is done through isolation.

Scale 3 Discrimination:
Minority group is discriminated against by denying them opportunities and services and so putting prejudice into action. Behaviours have the specific goal of harming the minority group by preventing them from achieving goals, getting education or jobs, etc. The majority group is actively trying to harm the minority. (e.g. Jim Crow laws)

Scale 4 Physical Attack:
The majority group vandalise minority group things, they burn property and carry out violent attacks on individuals or groups. Physical harm is done to members of the minority group. Examples are lynchings of blacks, pogroms against Jews in Europe, tarring and feathering Mormons in 1800s and British Loyalists in the 1700s.

Scale 5 Extermination:
The majority group seeks extermination of the minority group. They attempt to eliminate the entire group of people (e.g., Indian Wars to remove Native Americans, Final Solution of “Jewish Problem” in Germany, and Ethnic cleansing in Armenia.).

This is circular.
SBC leadership rhetoric goes beyond sin and scripture; their words, actions and attitudes are not hidden.

Interesting you used child molesters and adulterers. SBC leadership is quite willing to lump gay and pedophilie into the same sentence.
The SBC is open about belief.
One behavior is a crime under US law, two are not.
If the SBC has it’s way, two will be crimes.

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has a beautiful campus.

I do not believe the bible tells me to hate adulterers, homosexuals, liars or pedophiles, Paul, Moses, Americans, conservative theologicans, Southern Baptist Texans, or bloggers. 

I don’t consider calling sin what the Bible calls sin hate.

Are there people in the SBC who hate gays? I’m sure there are.
Just like there are people in the blogosphere who hate Americans or conservative theologians or Southern Baptist Texans or whatever.

I understand scripture is used for the basis of this hatred and rejection of gays and lesbians and I also understand many in the Christian faith do not think homosexual orientation is a sickness or a sin.

Jared, there are people in the SBC that do not hate, this would not be a dogma issue for them, but rather denominational. Across that spectrum, people would have varied responses.  I doubt gays and lesbians are permitted worship in SBC churches…correct me if I’m wrong.
The history of the SBC doctrinally and politically does not stand up to Um…no.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_sbc.htm