As former leaders of ex-gay ministries, we apologize to those individuals and families who believed our message that there is something inherently wrong withvbeing gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender. Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families. Although we acted in good faith, we have since witnessed the isolation, shame, fear, and loss of faith that this message creates. We apologize for our part in the message of broken truth we spoke on behalf of Exodus and other organizations.
We call on other former ex-gay leaders to join the healing and reconciliation process by adding their names to this apology.
We encourage current leaders of ex-gay programs to have the courage to evaluate the fruit of their programs. We ask them to consider the long-term effects of their ministry.
It’s called repentance.
via: Peterson Toscano’s Musings
It might also be called sloppy agape.
Your beef with Exodus and other groups of their ilk is that they work on the assumption that orientation change should be doable with everyone; that tends to run concurrent with the Word of Faith attitude the crops up in many evangelical circles that thinks that everything can be licked with the right amound of faith and prayer. Some folk’s problems are tough nuts to crack, and same-sex attraction is one of them; even Paul had his “thorn in the flesh” that refused to go away. I’m with you on that point.
However, I think the folks who wrote the letter sell God short. Part of the Holy Spirit’s job in tranforming our sinful nature. Quite a few sinful habits of believers are often “integral part of themselves,” yet they should be open to change if they’re running counter to what God asks of us.
I have a sinful habit of overeating and have a pot belly to show for it; it’s one bad habit I’ve yet to lick. However, I’d be ill-served to treat my over-eating as an OK think.
Likewise, the folks who are “stuck” as gay have something they struggle with, but they shouldn’t take that as licence to act on those urges. Their urges for sexual gratification are stronger than my urge to go back for a third burrito at the taco bar at lunch today, but they’re not proper nonethelsss.
I think you’ve summarized my discontent, yes, and I thank you for understanding what I am so clumsily attempting to articulate.
I do not doubt the sincerity of the majority of Christians working in reparative therapy, reading and listening to the stories of people involved, the faith is genuine, the needs great. Made greater in a sick culture and a sick religious sub-culture.
My problem is we are taking a complexity (human beings and core identity) and using disproven, harmful therapy, simplistic religion and cultural pressure as a ‘fix.’ And charging vulnerable people a great deal of money.
Christians do not need scapegoats, that pratice was declared finished at Calvary.
I also have a huge problem with the false information pay-for groups use Mark, you know me well.
And I have an even bigger problem with groups like Exodus International/NARTH willfully preying on families.
The Body of Christ is far too often not a safe place and a place of healing, and I take that statement beyond GLBT friends and believers.
We take responsibility, not someone else. It has to start with our sin, our bigotry, our ignorance, our pride, our tribalism, our lack of love and patience, our unwillingness. None of my GLBT friends chose their orientation, any more than you and I chose ours, they are not stuck, sick, or abnormal.
I am very angry and concerned Exodus International is taking their lies and their ‘programming’ to other countries including Canada.
I cannot stand by and watch GLBT friends told they are not Christian, or not Christian enough, or have burdens placed on them that are not theirs to bear. I have been profoundly priviledged to see ministers and churches quietly coming along side, holistically, practically and humbly.
There are people that can be helped with lifestyle (ie: ‘situational’ homosexuality) but no-one is helped with outright lies, bigotry, swindling, guilting, shame and hate. I don’t care how sincere reparative therapy church goers and workers are. It’s wrong, the model is not scriptural, and no matter how slickly it is packaged it never will be.
If you look at beyondexgay, or Soulforce you’ll see committed mature Christians.
Same with the US Catholic group Dignity that will be meeting in Texas soon. They’ve been trying to undo damage for 18 years.
Mark, I sin, I have vices and I’m not going to pretend those urges aren’t sin. I need to listen to the Holy Spirit, the bible and His people. I can do that with freedom and without condemnation because I haven’t been socially, culturally, politically and spiritually battered, shunned and lied to. Will I sin more so Grace may abound?
What I am angry about and speaking out against goes far beyond licence to act on urges.
What also deeply troubles and grieves me is that Exodus events tend to attract parents, family and pastors. They turn to what they have been taught to trust.
I applaud anyone who understands they need to look at their dysfunction, their needs, sins, struggles, pain, what I will not applaud is ‘leaders’ that will not and cannot do the same.
We have to stop lying. It has to stop.
Last night a few Exodus workers had that meal with with a few of their former clients. They talked, they listened, the former clients picked up the tab. Beats press releases, labels, events and reactionary lying doesn’t it?
I think you pulled my chatty ring.:^)
So, is homosexuality a sin BD?
I recommend Walter Wink, he provides a good biblical exegesis.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1265
Homosexuality is not a sin.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800631862/walterwinkswebsi
Within what boundaries then, would it be permitted, consenting adults, marriage etc?
I’ve read that guys stuff before on this topic Bd. I just skimmed it again and this jumped out at me: “The Bible clearly considers homosexuality a sin, and whether it is stated three times or 3,ooo is beside the point. ” Then he says in the next paragraph “I freely grant all that. The issue is precisely whether that biblical judgment is correct.”
That’s it in a nutshell right there. How do you come to the Bible. Do you come with your own worldview and try to make the Bible fit that, or do you come wanting God to tell you the truth and acepting what He says.
Thanks for those links. Here’s a couple I would point you to:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/52-14.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/52-14.htm
If we really care about the homosexual, and desire to love them as God does, we will point them to the truth, the truth about Jesus Christ, the truth that can set them free. Only the truth can set them free, just as it can set free the adulterer, the murderer, the thief, the child molester, the spousal abuser, the drug addicted, the alcoholic, the porn addicted, and on and on.
Its all about truth, God’s truth.
Thanks, I’ve read this MacArthur stuff. I re-read him.
You can do way better than MacArthur preaching Thessalonians and carrying on about OPS – comeon, point us to some real turn or burn like Paul Cameron Dr. Warren Throckmorton or Peter LaBarbera. You can do this George, knock this one out into right field and link us to NARTH or the FFF.
(OPS – other peoples sin)
We are not going to agree.
Heterosexuality is not a sin.
Asexuality is not a sin.
Homosexuality is not a sin.
carrying on about OPS
Does this apply to your criticism of Exodus and other groups?
I am troubled by the double standard.
Is it ever okay to say someone is in sin or that someone is sinning?
I am unlearned on reparative therapy, but I’ll trust your judgment that it doesn’t work. From my own perspective, it wouldn’t rock my world if homosexuality was genetic. Makes sense even from the vast anecdotal evidence. And nobody should be treated like a project, hill to conquer, or anything less than a person made in the image of God.
What I don’t get is why the standard you would apply to these groups you disagree with (they should mind their own business and worry about their own sin) doesn’t appear to apply to you (their sin of judgmentalism or whatever is your business).
I’ll confess in saying that this double standard (on many issues) is the most frustrating thing about your blogged thoughts, despite it being quite interesting, topical, and engagingly written.
Hi Jared, good to see you again!
” Is it ever okay to say someone is in sin or that someone is sinning?”
I know there are times – holy, sacred Spirit breathed moments when it is okay to say to another, this is sin. you are sinning. Here, look. May I help? I have been profoundly priviledged to be on both sides of the ‘telling.’
Sin comes up on BDBO a lot, the word just isn’t used that often.
It doesn’t need to be.
carrying on about OPS
Does this apply to your criticism of Exodus and other groups?
Exodus couldn’t get the pr’s out fast enough last week, since both/and doesn’t fill the seats, so they tried to pre-empt. It looked like what it was.
This is where you and I seem to come from different planets.:^)
What I don’t get is why the standard you would apply to these groups you disagree with (they should mind their own business and worry about their own sin) doesn’t appear to apply to you (their sin of judgmentalism or whatever is your business).
This is FotF, they make millions going after your sin. Last week was a textbook example. That went beyond judgmentalism.
If Soulforce, beyondexgay, Truth Wins Out, etc. ever practise the organizational sins Exodus International does, of course I’d speak out.
What do you see Exodus as being about? What is Exodus to you?
And nobody should be treated like a project, hill to conquer, or anything less than a person made in the image of God.
Yeah.
And credit where credit is due.
A couple of years ago a 16 year old named Zach blogged about his parents sending him to reparative therapy in Memphis. (Love In Action)
He was committed involuntarily for two months, there is a documentary coming out about Zach, his family and the Refuge program.
The state investigated the group as they should have, the outrage was world wide.
John Smid, Director of Love in Action announced last week the program has been shut down.
A civilized society does not hold it’s children against their will, charging a small fortune for ‘counselling’ they do not need and do not want.
Hopefully because of Zach, many other US churched kids will be granted the dignity of discovering who they are at their own pace with the respect and worth God has granted all of us.
Dear George,
There is one matter I would like to point out to you if I may.
Just how many ‘sins’ mentioned in the Bible are practised in the world today? Why the over focus of homosexuality only?
I would like you to have a honest read of these biblical verses:
Genesis 9
Genesis 12
Genesis 16
Genesis 24
Genesis 26
Exodus 21:
Joshua 9:23
1 Kings 8:2,6
1 Kings 9:20-21
2 Kings 4:1
Job 1:15-17
Job 3:19
Job 4:18
Job 7:2
Job 31:13
Job 42:8
Isaiah 50:1
1 Peter 2:18-20
1 Timothy 6:1
Ephisians 6:5-6
Luke 12:47
Revelations 6:15
Revelations 13:16
Revelations 18:13
Revelations 19:18
Yes… it is about slavery.
Or these:
Psalm 93:1
Psalm 96:10
Psalm 104:5
Chronicles 16:30
Ecclesiastes 1:5
Psalm 104:5
Unfortunately science had proven otherwise that we are living on a rock that travels around the sun, not likewise.
And yet, in your own words “Its all about truth, God’s truth.”
Are you working on Sundays George? I would like to point out to you that many of us would deserve death… Exodus 31.15.
Christian fundamentalists would argue not to take the Bible verses “literally” and read the context.
Some would also say the Biblical world exists thousands and thousands of years ago, therefore there is not much understanding on the issues such as what I presented above.
Then why the same does not apply for homosexuality, especially when the word of definition itself is non existant before 1869 in the world?
And the word only officially appeared in the Bible in the 1952, and some versions back in 1949. Prior to that, there is not even one word in Latin or Greek or Hebrew that can be translated to the meaning of the word ‘homosexual’ of today.
Interestingly, the words that are commonly used to represent homosexual or homosexuality, are Arsenokoitai and Malakoi. None of which bears even the scantest meaning to what we know today.
I would like to end with some words from Reverand Dr Yap Kim Hao:
“Let us look more closely at some of the Biblical records related to sexuality and how they show varying perspectives.
The law of Moses allowed for man to divorce his wife on account of some “indecency” in her. (Deuteronomy 24:1); Jesus categorically forbids it and will not man “put asunder” those united in marriage. (Mark 10:1-12); Jesus was also said to have sanctioned divorce on the condition of “unchastity.” (Matthew 9:9). Yet many Christians, in clear violation of a command of Jesus are divorced and for other reasons.
Divorced people are allowed baptism, church membership, communion, ordination and re-marriage but this has not always been the case for homosexuals. What makes the one so much greater a sin than the other, especially considering the fact that Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality but explicitly condemned divorce? Yet we ordain divorcees. Why not homosexuals?”
I would like to note that I am still a Christian through and through. But I believe the pure Bible that is savaged by the ‘bigotry of the people annointed to translate the Bible’ should be saved before new intolerances are created like how we did with African Americans.
The accuracy of of the Bible, is supposed to be the most important topic for discussion to improve mankind; not what people are doing on bed. After all, ‘unnatural’ anal sex can also apply to heterosexuals. Should we pry on them then?
So do we still want to argue about what is sin or what is not? Because if you do… oops!
(1 Timothy 2: 11-15.)
I better Sshhh! and just concentrate on saving my soul through child bearing. But I really pity those who cannot bear child, they will never be saved….
“I would like to note that I am still a Christian through and through. ”
How do you know that YukiChoe?
BD, by the way, I noticed you chose not to answer my question in #5 above. Might you entertain that?
Within what boundaries then, would it be permitted, consenting adults, marriage etc?
That question?
Put it in context so I can entertain you.
YukiChoe:
That was a splendid bible thumping.
Applause.
Well done!
Do have another go.
While you do round 2 – fisty cuffs with a fundy, I’m off to look up everyone of those bible verses. Finish him off, no point in any of us pretending George gives a damn about a single thing you said.;^)
The bible also opposes marriage.
Matthew 19:9-12
1 Corinthians 7:1-2
I Corinthians 7:7-9
Revelation 14:1-5
And condones 8 types of marriage.
1) Genesis 2:24 – nuclear
2) Genesis 2: 24 – polygynous
Opps, no polyandrous mentioned
3) Genesis 38:6-10 – levirate
4) Genesis 16 man, wife, slave
5) Genesis 21 – man, wife, concubines
6) Numbers 31:1-18 – soldier and female prisoner of war – rape
7) Deuteronomy 22:28-29 male rapist and his victim
And the last time your minister preached on Genesis 29 and 30? Another whole family arrangement.
The bible is completely silent on monogamous same sex relationships. This verses do not apply to that.
1) Homosexual rape (Genesis 19; Judges 19:14).
2) Homosexual ritual sex in Pagan temples — a religious taboo (Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13).
3) Homosexual prostitution (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24, 15:12, 22:46; 2 Kings 23:7).
4) Heterosexual men and women going against their basic nature and engaging in homosexual Pagan orgies (Romans 1:26).
5) Men who sexually molest boys — and the boys that they abuse (1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:9).
6) Bestiality: Men engaging in sex with males of another species — angels in this case (Jude 7).
Heterosexuals, bisexuals and homosexuals, all have the same three lifestyle options open to them in Canada – they can choose:
a) Celibacy: They can choose to remain sexually inactive, single, and not within a committed relationship. Friendships are sought, but sexual involvement is not a goal.
b) Sexually active single: They can choose to remain single (i.e. outside a committed relationship) and engage in sexual activity with one or more individuals.
c) Committed relationship: They try to find a loving partner of the same gender and enter into a committed, monogamous relationship. This can take a number of different forms: They can simply “live together” without registering their partnership with the government. They can register their partnership as a civil union, a marriage.
Now what the heck do we do about sexual ambiguity/intersex?
1% of live births around the world fall into that category.
Human rights issues are not contrary to scripture.
Want some human rights verses George?
Oh hey, never mind, let’s stick to sex and look at reparative, (conversion, reorientation) therapy shall we? 1 Corinthians 6:11
1978. Psychiatric study of Exodus. The percentage of clients with a homosexual orientation who became heterosexual, was under 0.4%.
1979. Masters and Johnson claimed an impressive conversion rate of 50 to 60%. They didn’t study homosexuals though, 93% were bi, and orientation was not studied, only certain behaviors.
1997. NARTH 860 clients, not one bit of data was released on changed orientation
2001. Dr, Robert Spitzer – 143 ex-gays and 57 ex-lesbians
followup: You would not be at all comfortable with the empirical data, George.
2001. Schroeder and Shidlo – 88% of subjects failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior.
4% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual.
9% reported either losing all sex drive or continuing to struggle to remain celibate.
Check this one out, further analysis is even more bleak.
There are others, knock yourself out.
The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses in 1973. The American Psychological Association followed suit in 1975; the National Association of Social Workers in 1977; the National Psychoanalytic Association finally followed suit in 1991, stating that homosexuality was not a disorder. The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association strongly reject reparative therapy.
None of the conservative christians promoting reparative therapy have to be licenced btw.
Lets look at the FBI stats on crimes on person and property of GLBT – one in four men and one in eight women.
You are the Canadian cop, what are the crimes against GLBT stats for Canada?
Here is a test professionally designed to identify homophobia. How did you do?
Dear George,
“How do you know that YukiChoe?”
By FAITH. Anyway,
We already know we CANNOT JUDGE others.
Matthew 7: 1 – 2
We already know what are the GREATEST COMMANDMENTS.
Matthew 22: 36-40
Note verse 40: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Ponder over it.
Again, I stress on what you said.
“Its all about truth, God’s truth”
And the truth is CHRIST HIMSELF, said nothing about homosexuality.
People only want what validates their own sense of self. God validates me. That is enough for me. Hope it is enough for you.
Dear BD,
I am not Bible thumping, I am just pointing out to George sometimes how we tend to use the Bible to validate our own personal value system.
In the Bible, punishement for ‘sins’ like working on Sundays and disobeying parents, is equivalent to homosexuality… DEATH. Yet why the double standard?
Anyway : ), I belong to a Christian organization called Genesis. We are here to heal the sexual brokeness of those suffering from the sin of heterosexuality, people like Beyonce Knowles, and 50 cent.
You know, Christ HIMSELF do not condone heterosexual sinners. Yet everyday on MTV we see barely clothed women dancing super seductively and men talking about how they want to shag their next female conquest.
They must get into our reparative program to turn them into homosexuals. That way, they would only hold hands with their parters in the park at max, or stay closeted, or come out to sing songs about equality, diversity and love.
If we do not do someting, heterosexuals, especially those prominent ones, would be influencing hundreds of thousands of young children all over the world into gangsterism and sexual sins. Already young girls today are exposing waaaaaayyyy to much flesh, and young boys get killed by guns so easily these days.: )
Dear BD,
I see that you done round two already. Thanks!
But I appeal to you, show these heterosexuals, love and compassion, and lead them to the truth of Christ Jesus.
Our ministry would be a fine place to start, I assure you.
Now, we would not want them to go to hell because they judged LGTs, or had been watching the Shakira Hips Don’t Lie MTV, do we? (Matthew 5:28)
Thanks.
My comment about bible thumping was a compliment, your use of scripture was brilliant.Â
Thank you so much.
George is well known in blogging circles and has been copiously banned. He is a cop, a guy who has had his chin on the pavement with work and addiction, found God and is determined to serve Him.
George has worn down too many good, patient ministers and others online and sadly irritating even five point reformers. He has popped by for years here because I one of the few that haven’t banned him. I set boundaries, and I’ve had enough, he is free to talk to you, he’s hurt too many good people and I’m tired of prior abusive email. I’ve got to set boundaries from past experience and my own limitations.
Your knowledge is formidable, your testimony powerful, your maturity shines.  Would you link me to your ministry, I’d like to know more.
George, direct your discussion to YukiChoe. Â
When you’ve had enough YukiChoe, say so and this comment thread will be closed
George, YukiChoe has extended you grace, step up and do likewise.Â
We are seeing a case of an abusive heterosexual sufferer. Case diagnosis seems to be another person who has a broken relationship with his parents. Because of that, he lashes out and blames everyone homosexual for it, for it edifies his heterosexual self and his longing for unconditional love…
I will be glad to take him under the wings of Genesis. But he has to pay up a specific fee for the reparative therapy….
On a real note, I am really running a ministry called ‘Reflections’ for the LGT community. The blog space is not out. Will inform you when it is ready.
In the meantime, thanks for your compliment.
It would be pointless to continue. Thanks for your input. Have a good night.
Just one correction there BD, I didn’t find God, He found me. It always works that way. We can’t come to God unless He draws us. For some reason He chose to do that with me and I am forever thankful.
The flip side of that, of course, is that our lives are all about choices we make, free will, that is. God has given us the guide book and if we truly want to know the way and surrender to Him, He will show us. He will set us free from the bondage to sin as we turn to Him.
And therein lies the great mystery, God’s sovereignty vs man’s free will. And one day we will all stand before Jesus Christ and give an account of our lives. The only thing that will matter then is what did we do for Him, while we had opportunity. That challenges me everyday. How did we glorify Him with our lives. That is my desire, to glorify God. I fall short way too often, but I also know and experience, without a doubt, His working in my life. He is an awesome God.
Thanks for your time and again, have a good night.
Hi George,
On your comment:
“Just one correction there BD, I didn’t find God, He found me. It always works that way. We can’t come to God unless He draws us.”
God had always been there. In our search for peace and comfort, we always want the illusion of romance, a lover that will find you and come to you.
But God is OMNIPRESENT. Wherever you go, God is already there, but it is us humans in our flesh that we are not aware of his presence.
And when we are finally together with him, in our free will, we go to him. He does not come to anyone because he is here. It is us to dwell in his presence.
On your statement:
“For some reason He chose to do that with me and I am forever thankful.”
There is something wrong with the way you perceive God here, but I cannot tell you the reason. You have to find that out yourself.
God do not practise favouritism. You are not the only one that God loves to do anything for you. Everybody has a share of his love.
Perhaps there is something bothering you in your life you seek comfort from the weariness of your everyday work, but please remember he is beside you always.
On your statement:
“It would be pointless to continue. Thanks for your input. Have a good night.”
You had been dealt with real hard facts. Some which are undisputable and difficult to swallow.
But I would like to share with you that, it is no longer about what is right or wrong, which sin is big or small; we are here to reconcile the reality of the world with the reality of God.
We are not here to judge. We are here to save souls.
PSALM 46:10 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
10 “Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.”