What a sad story.
Every time I think we get beyond this foolishness, I’m tossed back into reality.
Church won’t hold funeral for gay man.
High Point Church in Arlington Texas is independent, has a congregation of a couple of thousand, bought major property quickly (100 acres, 432 thousand square foot building, 5 thousand seat sanctuary, 6 IMAG screens, facility tours, blah, blah and blah).
Minister Gary Simons is the brother in law of Joel Osteen.
You know where this is going.
Church staff member Lee Sinclair lost his brother to a heart infection after surgery this week and asked that the memorial service be held at the church.
Cecil Sinclair was 46.
According to The Dallas News: “He was a native of Fort Worth, a Navy veteran who served in Desert Storm helping rescuers find downed pilots, and a singer in the Turtle Creek Chorale, said his mother, Eva Bowers. He did not belong to a church.”
There is some agreement.
Both the family and church officials agree that the church volunteered to host a memorial service, feed 100 guests and create a multimedia presentation of photos from Mr. Sinclair’s life.
Okay, good. Everyone is on the same page, funerals are for the living, the responsibility of the body of Christ is to care for the grieving with dignity, respect and love.
Then the control freak nonsense started.
Gary Simons weirded out over the video the family made honouring Cecil’s life and withdrew the invitation.
“Some of those photos had very strong homosexual images of kissing and hugging,” he said. “My ministry associates were taken aback.”
And then, he said, the family asked to have its own people officiate the service. “We had no control over the format of the memorial,” Mr. Simons said.
Family and friends discovered the church had withdrawn its invitation Wednesday evening, when Lee Sinclair called to tell his mother, she said. Ms. Bowers said that her older son is developmentally disabled, with hearing and vision problems.
Nobody from the church called her or Mr. Sinclair’s partner, Paul Wagner, to discuss possible changes to the service, Ms. Bowers said.
“We could have reached a compromise,” she said. “That was never attempted.”
These good church going folks have no trouble with watching extreme wrestling, hugging in sports events, heterosexual pr0n, violent movies and who knows what else, but even a gracious compromise by a grieving family wasn’t enough. Communicating doesn’t appear to this church to have been an honourable option.
The family said the church could do an ‘alter call’ at the end of the funeral service.
Okay. Compromise. For people suffering pain and loss, that is a not a small gesture.
Not good enough for Gary Simons of High Point Church. No sir.
High Point Church opposes homosexuality, and there was no way the church could host a service that appeared to endorse it, Mr. Simons said.
“Can you hold the event and condone the sin and compromise our principles?” he said. “We can’t.”
The issue was not so much that Mr. Sinclair was, from the church’s perspective, an unrepentant sinner, he said. It’s that it was clear from the photos that his friends and family wanted that part of his life to be a significant part of the service.
The pastor said that he could imagine a similar situation involving a different sin. Perhaps a mother who is a member of the church loses a son who is a thief or murderer, Mr. Simons said. The church would surely volunteer to hold a service, he said.
“But I don’t think the mother would submit photos of her son murdering someone,” he said. “That’s a red light going off.”
Right then.
Simons own words condemn him.
The church knew Cecil was gay, Jeff was a staff member they’d supposedly prayed for the family for six years.
High Point Church leadership thinks homosexuals are comparable with thieves and murderers. And families of theives and murderers have videos of the thieving and murdering they want to show at funerals and memorial services. Interesting reasoning.
Anyone else?
How dare this minister equate a military vet, businessman, son, brother, partner and friend with illegal behavior.
How dare Gary Simons decide Cecil Sinclair was an unrepentant sinner.
He surmised this how, exactly?
Direct line to the Holy Spirit?
Email from God?
Since the church wasn’t coming out of this debacle looking too good, they offered to pay for another venue.
The family had enough sense to say no thanks and took care of their own arrangements.
High Point Church sent over the food and the video of Cecil’s life the family had put together anyway.
Someone at the church had edited it.
This church had the unmitigated gall to edit this family’s video and return it to them that way.
No fancy bible words are going to cover up this control freak behavior.
This has nothing to do with principles.
Hello High Point Church.
I think divorced people, adulterers, domestic abusers, liars, hypocrites, addicts, lazy people, thieves, murderers, prisoners, immigrants, foreigners, over eaters, selfish, insensitive people and all the rest of us sinners should go on your list of who you won’t allow in your facility for funeral or memorial services.
Don’t you?
Your principles of hatch and dispatch need a major overhaul.
The Sinclairs lost a son, a brother, Paul Wagner lost a long time partner.
Jeff Sinclair needs to run not walk, as far away from this Osteen wanna be church as he can and find a group of believers who have learned healthy interdependent maturity.
It’s called love.
Rev. Bob Sith of the SBC weighed in.
High Point is not a Southern Baptist Church, but hey, newspapers need expert quotes and not too many denominations appoint National Strategists for Gender Issues.
Most don’t have to, but I digress.
I strongly disagree with Sith, this is not new territory, not new ground.
We church goers saw this behavior by churches in the 1980’s when medical people and society were attempting to figure out HIV/AIDS. Churches were nervous about homosexuals or hemophiliac services being held on their property unless coffins were sealed. That was a medical concern. They learned and got over it.
The best system is to work out procedures ahead of time, he said. For instance, he tells Baptist churches they should have clear guidelines that they can give to families at the start of funeral planning. But even that can’t prevent every possible awkward situation, he said.”I know because this is such new ground for a lot of churches and pastors, you get caught off-guard and you get reactive and not proactive,” he said.
Cecil might not have died if there hadn’t been surgical complications.
It doesn’t sound like there was much time for working out procedures ahead of time.
At least not for this family. High Point Church guidelines are a separate issue.
Gary Simons and High Point Church have their spotlight, they have made international news, not because of their theology; but because of their pursuit of mega-church celebrity, reactive and disengenuous muddled policy, bigotry, backtracking, worry over bothering their money people and their open rejection of one of their own staff members family.
After all, we can’t have High Point Church people taken back now, can we?
This behavior has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, Christianity and ministry. Out of the 35 hundred High Point Church attendees, some will understand that.
Simons bio at the church website reads like something a Disney PR team would write.
I can empathize with childhood illness and lost dreams, our family has been there, done that.
The bragging about accumulation and acquisition on the rest of the website is really something. Look at what we’ve done! Look at what we have! See how successful we are! See how big we dream!
Our Mission: To pastor the Metroplex and evangelize the world.
Oh.
Well, Mr. Simons.
You and your ministry associates carry on and pastor your Metroplex.
The Sinclair family and Paul Wagner have buried their son, brother and partner, his friends paid their respects without your assistance.
No worries Mr Simons and High Point Church ministry associates.
You’ve got your principled control and all world wide attention you could dream of to go with it.
Update: Well. This is interesting. There is more to this story than Dallas Morning News reporter Weiss was able to tell and Gary Simons wants to tell.
Published 1 year, 3 months ago
The greatest commandment of all is to “Love One Another”. (”…and the greatest of these is Love.”) If homosexuality were such a sin, it’s remarkable that Jesus NEVER SAID ONE WORD ABOUT IT. The prohibitions are Old Testament, pre-Christian beliefs, and based on Paul’s writings (and Paul definitely had problems with homosexuality). But people who are CHRISTIANS rather than Paulists should be able to distinguish between the positions of the two.
I personally knew Cecil… he was a good and decent man, probably a better man than most of these self-righteous hypocrits who attempted to deny him the respect due any human being… even posthumously. To deface his memorial video and attempt to devalue the important things that Cecil believed in is an outrage and a travesty of everything good and tolerant and loving that Christ stood for.
The people of that ‘church’ should be embarassed and ashamed of their church’s now-ugly reputation.
Gordon, I was hoping someone who knew the Sinclairs would comment.
I checked out blogs earlier today on Technorati that posted the Sinclairs and the High Point Church story.
I could not find one that condoned what Gary Simons and High Point Church did - be they bloggers of faith, people not interested in faith, gay activists, people with or without GLBT friends, and military vets.
Please accept my condolences on the loss of your friend Cecil.
I am the partner of Cecil Sinclair who passed. It is unfortunate that the church has decided to tell untruths in order to make themselves feel better, or make their side of the story into a saner response. Hopefully more of the truth will come out in future articles or investigations.
First of all, let me start by stating that it was a member of the church who offered the use of their facility to us, on behalf of his brother who is/was a member of their congregation. I was introduced to this man as Cecil’s partner. To my knowledge, this person at least was fully aware that we were living openly as a couple. This same member of the church, when were later advised that we could not use the facilities, on his own, with money from his own pocket, not church coffers, went and procured another facility for the funeral. The church did not do so. At no time did a member of the church contact us to indicate that they had a problem with any part of the service we were planning. We never had contact with the minister or any of the administration.
On Tuesday morning, we gave the church a total of 83 various pictures of Cecil that were forwarded to us by various members of his family. Of those, not a single one showed a man hugging or kissing another man, nor were there any overtly homosexual references. Cecil’s sister Kathleen sat and worked with the two people preparing the video and went through all of the photos with them. There was only one photo which would be considered offensive, as it was a picture of him in his early 20s making a rude gesture at his best friend who was taking the photo. We removed it and never asked that it be included. It was just overlooked in the rush to get things done. These individuals went through all the other photos, which were pictures of family gatherings, birthday parties, vacations, etc. At no time was anything expressed to her or us that they had a disagreement with any of the other photos.
Cecil’s brother Lee, who was the member of the church, asked that we include a call to prayer near the beginning of the services, as well as a call for salvation at the end. We immediately agreed to this because it meant so much to his brother personally. We even asked if they wanted to have their own minister conduct it, or if our officiator could. There was no objection raised, so we assumed that it was OK.
On Wednesday evening about 6pm, we received a call. The person on the line put Cecil’s brother Lee, who is mentally impaired, onto the phone. Lee informed us that something was wrong, and then someone else got on the phone. That person informed us that a terrible string of errors was made, and that the service could no longer be held at their facility. We never spoke to the pastor nor anyone from his administration directly. It was all done through middlemen. When we requested to know why we could no longer use their facility, there was no answer. They simply stated a mistake was made.
Later that night, while we were scrambling to find another location, Cecil’s niece called back to the church and demanded an explanation. It was at that time a very long string of excuses began to form. First she was told that it was because we were bringing in outside food, which they didn’t allow. Then we were told it was because there was construction going on nearby which they felt would be too obtrusive. We said we didn’t think it would interfere. Then we were told it was because there was a scheduling conflict. When asked was other event was being held that was conflicting, the call was disconnected.
The remembrance we held for Cecil I felt was wonderful. We started with a brief welcome by the officiator. A song (For the Fallen) was sung. Cecil’s obituary was read. We then played the video which was about 10 minutes long, showing him from childhood, graduation, his naval service, and family gatherings, especially those from his 46th birthday, which had just been on the 5th of July. The officiator then read from personal family statements and remembrances of him. His mother, father, uncle and sister had all contributed personal insights into his life that they were not able to state themselves due to grief. A time was then allowed for individuals to come to the mike and offer their own personal remembrances of him. The chorale then sang another song (Amazing Grace). Closing remarks were made by the officiator and we then moved to the light meal that had been prepared. Meat and cheese sandwiches, cakes, and cookies. Only a small amount of this was offered by the church, most was either brought by family or friends.
To me personally, I have no problem with the church turning us away. My problem is with the method in which they did it. I happen to know several other members of that church who are also gay, and they had no idea that their church held that opinion on this topic either. If they had told us right away, or even on Tuesday that they were not comfortable with the service, we would have been more than willing to try and come to some sort of compromise, or we could have changed venues. We were never given that option. Someone in a position of power made the decision to cut us off, and didn’t even have the moral courage to tell us the truth to our faces.
Hopefully your reading this helps to make sense of what occurred. I fully understand the church’s right to deny us the use of their facilities. I also served in the military, (US Army, 1987-2002), and I have fought to defend their freedom of religion and freedom of choice. If just one couple or family can be saved from having to suffer the same as we did, I would consider all this to have been worthwhile. I truly believe all congregations need to have more open communication between all their members, so that the person who had initially welcomed us into their church would have known that is was not acceptable in the eyes of their leaders, and the entire issue would have been avoided. If we had known from the beginning we were not welcome, or the offer had never been made, we would have just continued making the same arrangements we finally had in the end. Nothing we did for Cecil’s remembrance ceremony was changed, other than the location.
I loved Cecil truly and deeply, and I am sorry that anyone considers a truly heartfelt, emotional, even spiritual connection to another human being to be sinful, simply because that love is between two people of the same sex.
So is this church teaching hatred or love?! I did not realize your sexual orientation would deny someone the right for a funeral. EVERYONE deserves respect, whether they are living or deceased. This gentlemen should be honored because of his life, and his veteran status. The fact the he was gay is such a minute part of his life. I hope his congregation realize that Mr. Simon can obviously turn his back on anyone especially if you don’t agree with his opinion. GOD Bless Mr. Sinclair and his family, which includes of course his partner.
To the Sinclair Family:
I am truly sorry about your loss. Losing a loved one no matter what lifestyle they have is hard. God demands we love each other but hate the sin. I can however understand the church not wanting to allow a video with homosexual scenes in it. It wasn’t realistic to think the church would allow otherwise. I do disagree though on how the church handled it. They could have previewed the video..they could have given you guidelines (necessary since church elders are responsible to God & knowing he was gay) and could have handled this in a much more respectful and honorable way. As a christian I was apalled by their insensitivity to your family and to Mr. Sinclairs partner. On the other hand, you could have made a video perfectly fit for Mr. Sinclair without the kissing scene. I know this was part of his life and this could have been viewed in any other setting..but a church does have to uphold the Bible. All the words in the Bible are god-breathed..even if issued by Paul. I don’t think the church didn’t care about Mr. Sinclair and your family. I think saying so isn’t fair but I also don’t think they were fair to you how they handled this. I pray you can forgive them and don’t label all Christians as insensitive as Mr. Peterson has. That is no different than what the church did to you. I pray you found a place to have the memorial and that you found peace knowing he is resting with the Lord. God bless…..
Why dont you quit bending the story. The video was not dehfaced by anyone. It is a video created by the church for the family that consisted of pictures that the family submitted to them. Without the church there would be no video. The church objected to CELEBRATING a lifestyle of sin. The church has a responsibility to stand for what is right. Yes even at the risk of offending some people. That is not hate that is the essense of love. When you are not afraid to reveal to people their wrong ways. Loving people is not a popularity contest. Its similiar to being a parent . most kids dont always think their parents are “loving” them when they are being corrected. But the truth is that the fact that a parent corrects and diciplines their child is the evidence of their love. That is the purpose of the church. So to demand that they compromise their principles just to make the gay (sinful) community happy …. well they might as well just close down the church because what purpose do they serve then.
As an avid reader and commentor on the blogs, I tipped the Dallas Morning News of this, which broke the story yesterday. Since then, a lot more details have come to light, including a comment on the DMN Religion Blog from Cecil’s family. I’m sure you won’t be all that surprised by Paul’s response, and I hope it gets at least as much coverage as did the church’s attempt at justification.
http://religion.beloblog.com/archives/2007/08/another_side_of_the_story_of_t.html#more
This makes me very sad. I think you “christians” should ask yourselves a very candid question, and respond honestly to it…
“Would Jesus Christ have denied that man a service in HIS church?”
If your not doing what Christ would have done, you have NO business using HIS name!
Disgraceful!
This is one church that should be torn down. Its essence is sin itself and its mission is so much poppycock. Hopefully, if there are any Christian members of this congregation, they will congregate elsewhere in their attempt to pray to God. Otherwise, all their words are mouthfuls of the devil’s puke.
It’s about time a Church stood up and said it. Gay is wrong! Death…well..that is a reality we all face.
The Church is RIGHT! The Church has to set standards based on the Bible. It cannot condone SIN for any reason. It wouldn’t be a loving Church to do that. The Church should be like a parent loving and guiding the congregation. Children don’t always like a Parents guiding but a LOVING parent loves and disciplines. I have had homosexual feelings all of my life and have acted upon them. I am VERY conservative in all other areas of my life so I have had a constant struggle all of my life and I am now 60. Homosexuality IS a sin no matter how much it may be said to be ok. Most of the Churches or Ministers that say that it’s ok I wouldn’t go to them for council in any other area of my life so why would I take their advice on this? Never! Sin needs to be perceived as ok and normal then it can be continued. I attend an Evangelical Church and no one there knows of my struggle as I wouldn’t be able to continue to do what I love doing there. I KNOW I’m not the only one like this and I’m sure there are many in Evangelical churches around the world. I continue to struggle with this and probably will ’till the day I die. I KNOW I was born this way and God has seen fit NOT to change me even after MUCH, Much prayer. I’m not saying he doesn’t change some people. God can do anything HE wants. Not always what WE think He should do.Life has it’s struggles. Life isn’t fair. It’s just life………
My sympathy to your family.
John:
You mention you are 60 with a lifetime of struggle.
I will not tell you how to walk before God, it is your life and His gift to you.
More information on the Sinclair family and High Point Church has come to light. I hope you have time to read it.
What I will say is there are Christians all over the world who do not believe conservative has anything to do with scripture or Jesus Christ.
There are followers of Jesus Christ all over the world that do not identify as evangelical like you and I do.
There are followers of Jesus Christ all over the world who do not believe sexual preference is a sin.
There are GLBT followers of Jesus Christ all over the world who live faithfully and fully, not hiding, not shamed, not living their lives in fear of God’s wrath, or His love, or fellow believers.
There are straight Christians such as myself who will not say your homosexual orientation is a sin, no amount of bible study and prayer leads me to that, any more than saying hetrosexuality is sin.
I am so sorry you can’t be honest at your church, thank you for your honesty here.
The church is not your parent, nor is it mine.
I am so very sorry you have had to face so much personal struggle in your culture, your faith and yourself. Your comment is obviously heartfelt, and painful to read.
Here are Christians that know what you have been through, and have far better words than I am able to offer you.
http://www.beyondexgay.com/
Ed: It appears as more information comes to light out of the 35 hundred at High Point Church, there are some actual mature and serious believers.
It is easy to condemn the structure of churches, wrong headed policies, and rampant immaturity and twisted theology.
I needed to hear there were Christians who stepped toward the Sinclairs and Paul Wagner without looking for glory too.
And I agree with you. Maybe they’ll have to find another church.
What happened with the Sinclair family is probably not uncommon given the current political and religious climate in the US - what is uncommon is that a reporter found the time to tell the story.
I talked to a funeral director about this yesterday. They’ve never seen this kind of behavior from clergy. Ever. As a reporter, neither have I.
There were/are Christians in High Point Church!
And they obeyed God rather than man. All it takes is one.:^)
A SHARING FROM A GAY BELIEVER: So this church which denied funeral services to a gay man did it because they have the duty to uphold the Bible? Totally absurd. Total Hypocrisy. They think they do. The ecclesiastical system today (which includes this church in my opinion), has, since decades ago (in my own beliefs), has become their own voice–many of them had already kicked the Spirit of Love, which is Christ Himself from their pulpits, pews, and chapels and replaced Christ with their own manmade dogmas and rules that they use to control their congregations. These ‘rules’ that are often from their own interpretations of the Word–this is obvious in how many of these supposed churches of God behave in the eyes of us “heathens and thieves and liars”. Many of these churches (or church systems) think they speak for God, they think they represent the Word, but overall, a great many of them (not all), speak not for God but for their own selfish bellies, always hungry and thirsty for power, money and even for politics. They think they follow the Word but they really don’t. A great majority of them think they are saved but they really aren’t. Many of them (including this one) are hypocritical in my opinion and in due time, at the end of this dispensation, will receive their dues from God. Here’s an excerpt from the Bible: Matthew 7:22-23: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” God is a God of Mercy, and of Truth, and of Grace. Humanity is the essense of all mankind–that essense has many imperfections because all are flesh(not divine)–that’s why Christ died for ‘all Mankind’ because all have sinned–this applies to all. What saves us is our ‘faith’ in Christ (gay or straight) and what follows after that is between that individual and God for He is a God of and for individuals in His invisible CHURCH and each individual in this invisible CHURCH is unique and has a unique purpose in life. One group of that imperfect group called Humanity has no right to judge and single out another group who happen to be only expressing their unique humanity because they (the so-called ‘church system’) themselves are not perfect and have also failed to uphold God’s righteousness in many, many other ways. For this church to say that they have the duty to uphold the Word which they think justifies their denying this funeral service, is just pure hypocrisy on their part—and, this hypocrisy is very, very clear to the world now for acting so shamefully. They’ve failed to express mercy, grace, and love—the same mercy, grace and love that they received as sinners themselves when they first believed.
Ron
Gay Christian
As a Christian this offense by the church against the family of the deceased is horrific to say the least. Christians are some of the most judgemental people on this earth. This is not being Christ like. Jesue accepted and loved everyone and did not judge anyone. Bottom line is that SIN is SIN. Over eating is a SIN and many people live a lifetime of SIN by over eating. I must ask shall this church and all christian churches refuse funerals to all the FAT people/members in their churches? Trust me, the churches including many pastor’s are full of Sinning Over Eaters! The answer of course is NO, since man interpets the books of the Bible and only enforce and condone what suits them. The Bible teaches love and acceptance not hatred and intollerance. It is not the Christians place to judge people for that is almighty God’s and only his job. The Joel Osteen I watch weekly would never treat someone like this and his sister needs to ask Joel to pray for her husband and send him a few books to read on what a true Christian is about.
David,
Looking at the church site, there has been no clarification/correction of Simons theological/policy statement to the Dallas paper. Nothing.
http://www.churchunusual.com/index.html
I checked religious wires. Nothing.
If you see anything, I’d be grateful if you threw the link in the comment section here. Anyone from the Dallas area or the church that can shed some light would be helpful.
I’m beginning to think this church board isn’t managing 3500 people, their staff, their property, their programs or their theology very well.
This church is the size of a small town, I don’t think they know what their policy is, how to communicate with each other, or how to handle the public backlash.
This certainly isn’t one of their high points, is it?
HE WHO IS WITH OUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE. If sin is not allowed in the church, then there should be no one in the church ever. It is so sad to see how churches these days and some of the people who go and run these churches can sit and judge others, when they them selves are sinners too. If you look at Jesus’s life in the bible, he never turns people away. The church and It’s pastor missed the chance that jesus would never have, that was to have unsaved people come into the church, in to his arms and talk to them about God. YOU MISSED THE BIG PICTURE. Show me anywhere in the bible that jesus turned anyone away. show me where jesus didn’t feel compation for those who were lost. He ate with the sinners when the Leaders of the Church would not. He touched the Leppered when the leaders in the church would not. He forgave and remembers not the sins of all of us when leaders in the churches can not. I pray High point church do some deep soul searching, and to remember that the CHURCH IS FOR SINNERS NOT FOR THOSE ALREADY SAVED. The good “sammeritian” church would have done the serice gave the food and imbrased the family. HIGH POINT CHURCH “WAS” willing to give the food out of love and they were “WILLING” to “FIND” a place other then their’s. Who was this man’s nieghbor. To The Sinclair Family I am sorry for your Loss,you are in my thoughts and prayers.
BETTY
There you go. Thank God He showed us Who these Megachurches, BIG Money, Self Rigtheous Jerks are… Thank Cecil Sinclair. Your death was not in Vain. It showed Us that These SO called Christians, MEGA CHURCH, MEGA MONEY. etc WHAT THEY . REALLY ARE!!
Thank YOU, I will Never listen to those SMILING, BLEACHED HAIR HYPOCRITICIAL OSTEENS. THANK YOU CECIL . YOU SHOWED SO MANY OF US THE TRUTH.
HOW DARE TEH SMILING,,,,, OSTEENS COMPARE THE LOVE THAT SOMEONE HAS FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO A MURDERER. YOUVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME…
YOURVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.. THATS WHAT ALL THAT MONEY WILL DO FOR YOU.. THE OSTEENS ARE BETTER THAN GOD AND THEN THEY HAVE THE NERVE TO COMPARE A GAY PERSON WITH A MURDERER. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR DEATH SHOWED US MORE THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW.. IT SHOWED US WHAT GOD IS TRULY ABOUT AND WHAT GOD IS NOT ABOUT!!!!!!!! THANK YOU….CECIL , THANK YOU FOR SHOWING US ONCE AGAIN THE JUDGMENTAL RIGHT WING SELF RIGHTEOUS MEGA CHURCH BIG MONEY CHRISTIANS.. THANK YOU A MILLION TIMES OVER CECIL YOU WILL NOT DIE IN VAIN…. YOUR PASSING HAS SHOWED MANY OF WE CHRISTIANS THE TRUTH …………….. IT HAS SHOWED ME WHAT ONCE AGAIN THEY ARE ABOUT AND THANK GOD I AM NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
To Paul, I am sorry for your loss and to his family as well. Also Paul ,thank you for your service in defending the church’s right to not serve you or cecil and his family on this day of rememberance of his life, not a way of life.
Jesus came for the lost of this world, and most of those who are lost are those who think they are saved. It is sad to see a church “PICK ” a sin and think that that is great then any other sin they commit. I’m glad Jesus does not see sin that way. If you ask a christian who should be last in heaven. A ture christian will say they should. The Parable of the good sammeritan should be the lesson for next sunday at HIGH POINT CHURCH.
It seems like this church as well as many people commenting about this are taking the “Well if I was in charge” approach rather than the “What would Jesus do” approach. If Jesus would’ve come to earth before Cecil Sinclair passed away do you think he would spend his time with people like Cecil or people like Gary Simon. Love God. Love people. It’s not up to you or me to judge Cecil Sinclair. We will all be judged one day. In the mean time I will pray for the people who have judged at High Point Church.
This is truelly a sad story. Everyone lost a chance to come together. If this were a house of God then the extended hand could have spanned differences. There are other factors in our lives too and focusing on any particular part does a disservice to all that we are. It’s this type of judgementalism that is responsible for the decline of the Christianity in America. I never felt like the bad person the church tried to convince me I was. Now I have a belief that holds me resonsible for myself and I am very happy. Namaste.
What was the ultimste message in the New Testament? I think it had something to do with love and forgiveness…not that ANY human being should HAVE to be forgiven for love…regardless of sexual orientation! Such hypocrisy!
This is absolutely pathetic. The church should be ashamed of itself, as should all members who do not speak out against such hate. It is quite simple, God is love and this is nothing but hate. Wake up people.
To Paul and Cecil’s Family…
My warmest condolences on behalf of your loss. Cecil was wonderful, as he was my big Bro for the Turtle Creek Chorale. I am sincerely sorry that this came about his memorial. So wherever that it WAS hosted, should that place not be applauded?
I agree that all fat people, those who smoke, those who have ever cursed, ever thought dirty thoughts, look at porn, skipped church, not tithed, lets see, thats leave out just about everyone that should be allowed to have a funeral at this church that really could only have Jesus’ funeral for He was the only human who never sinned. Then lets get all the judgemental Christians fighting so anyone who does not believe is totally turned off and then we are responsibile for tha and those who had not done the other things wrong would then never be allowed to have a funeral in a church.
Now Jesus would be so proud of us. We ould be like the pharisees and we know how much Jesus wanted that in us. This is so sad, my condolences, not only to the family of the deceased but to everyone who ever trustt this man of God to lead down the road of iniquity.
Boy if we keep this up brothers and sisters in Christ we will run everyone away from Jesus. Satan wins. Yes, I believe you all made such a stand for Jesus. He went to Calvary for only a few sins, right everyone?
Lupe:
I’m sorry for your loss. When you see Paul and Cecil’s family I hope you’ll feel free to give them a big hug.
Being in the public eye when you are grieving is really overwhelming.
Be proud of Paul, Kathleen, Jeffrey Weiss, Cecil’s mom and for every US Christian who finally found the guts to speak up and say this is wrong.
I understand The Turtle Creek Chorale has been banned from some fancy places, like Baptist churches. Keep singing! Your Conductor Emeritus commented over at the Dallas Morning News blog.
My twin Sherm is a funeral director, we talked about how Cecil’s family was treated.
I’ll be honest with you, we’ve never seen this kind of behavior from a man of God.
Ever.
Sherm wouldn’t have tolerated it that’s for sure. We don’t know any funeral director that would. Gary Simons would have had a wee talking to in a private moment.
I went looking, I didn’t find names of the place and the people that hosted Cecil’s memorial. A funeral home? A legion? I don’t know. But oh yeah, give them a hand.
My heart is broken with this story. Shame on this “church.” I agree fully with the “what would Jesue do?” statement.
These fundamentalist extremists create a tremendous divide between Christians. They are no different than their brothers overseas. They just haven’t graduated to explosions yet, only decimation of the soul.
True Christians can best respond by keeping their money in their collective pockets. That is what truly speaks in such institutions. Send your tithes to a human rights group instead. You can make it 10% and it would still be going to a “Christian” cause now wouldn’t it?
My sincere condolences on behalf of your loss.
I’m sitting at my PC in the UK speechless by what I’ve read this morning.
I was adopted through the Church (C of E) into a loving family in the 1960s, my arrival into this world was unexpected but warmly welcomed through the Church and beyond with no discrimination of background of how I came to be! So it is with sadness I see this discrimination.
I now travel all over the world with my open eyes hopefully together we can open up others eyes to the world outside the church! and before they cut themselves off.
I feel like we’ve lost brother whose probably done loads more in life for people than plenty of those going to that church.
Lottie
As a funeral director I am not surprised by the actions this mega church took. While I have never known a minister to refuse to do a service because of a person’s faith or sexual orientation or height or weight or whatever, I do know that prejudice does influence how grieving individuals are treated by police, coroner’s, doctor’s and peripheral family members. I’m sure the clergy is not exempt from that list, it’s just as a FD I probably haven’t heard about it.
This church made it’s position on homosexuality clear. There are a lot of churches who refuse to marry gay couples. That is their right. What the church leadership didn’t do was come clean on their position soon enough - before the service was planned. Their excuses about construction and bringing in outside food etc. ring hollow.
For those in the congregation that don’t support banning this family from the church to celebrate a life and grieve a loss - I commend you. I hope you have the courage to get out of the safe bubble that this church provides and move on to embrace the reality outside the church.
Funerals are for the living. This church set a very poor example by it’s actions by backing away from the family and friends of this man and trying to cover it’s actions.
Negative press will go a long way to help expose the power, lust for money and narrow-mindedness this kind of ‘Christianity’ shows.
God doesn’t put a degree on ’sin’. Lying, judging, exclusion, elitism are not exclusive to just that church. We see it everywhere. It’s just sad to see it under the guise of christianity.
In my opinion this isn’t about what a church puts forth as a view on what they consider a major sin, (I don’t think there is such a thing as a major sin), to me it’s about a mindset that is continuing to destroy the U.S. and other western countries Just what did Christ meant when he said ‘feed my flock’ and ‘love one another’?
There was nothing Christ-like about the way the church handled the situation.
To the family and friends of Cecil, I’m sorry you lost him. In his death Cecil has done a great service to caring members of that congregation who can think for themselves, who have the courage to support you and hopefully show that God’s love is unconditional.
It has also been one more way to expose what this church leadership really believes.
Since I am not the assistance Holy Spirit I can’t judge them. However, I can say that I feel their actions were evil. They remind me of the Pharisees and money changers outside the temple. Jesus didn’t judge others - does that mean that church won’t bury prostitutes or the mentally ill either? Jesus embraced them with forgiveness, healing and love.
‘Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted’. I trust and that Cecil’s family and friends will find comfort in God’s love and the love and support of those few inside the church that disagree with their ‘leader’ and the many outside the church who are disgusted with they way the church leadership acted.
Sad and shameful story.
It is a shame that people let CHURCHES have so much control over their lives. These so called people that call themselves CHRISTIANS are a joke. No one, not even churches and their priests and Reverands have a right to judge anyone in this world. These churches are in business to collect your money so that they can prosper in this world. God made us all, and that includes all the different people in this world. NO ONE ON THIS EARTH HAS A RIGHT TO JUDGE, THAT IS UP TO GOD!!!!!
SHAME ON ALL OF THOSE INVOLVED IN DECLINING TO HAVE THE SERVICES AT HIGHT POINT CHURCH, INCLUDING GARY SIMONS. YOU WILL BE REMEMBERED!
even though it was failing and infected…we know that Cecil had a heart.
pity we can’t say the same for certain religious communities.
i think the quote i read on the AP this morning that struck me as a billboard for hypocrisy was this:
“Even though we could not condone that lifestyle, we went above and beyond for the family through many acts of love and kindness,” Simons said.
ah, love and kindness, re-defined.
spread those skirts and hide behind them, Gare.
I am confused. You refused to offer the services at your church because of you beliefs, yet you offered to pay for it to be held some place else? If you do not condone a way of life you do not condon it. Period. You people are hipocrits. Plain and simple. Do you not understand that if you offer to “pay” for it some place else that it is the same as offering it at your own “church” What is the difference, and if you can judge someone else for who they are and what they believe in, then be judged yourself and be a false witness to God because you have just claimed yourself to be God. It was my understanding being brought up in a Christian home, that God was the only Judge. Or do you have a direct line that gives you the right to judge?
Get real congregation and stop your stupidity and realize that everyone on the face of this earth has a right to their own beliefs. Why should someone allow you to believer what you do? Just because you belong to the church you do. Hah, you make me laugh at your hipocracy!
I am confused! God teaches love. Who gives a minister the authority to decide on a person’s homegoing service.
God says come as you are. Who know whether this young man went to God in prayer to repent his lifestyle? It is not for us to know or judge. I hope that the family don’t let this intrusion of the devil won’t let this change their option of all churches. I will pray for the family. I will also pray the Arlington High Point Church. I wonder if what they are learning and reading is the same things I have learned and read in my Bible.
I feel a great injustice was committed towards this family.
LET HE THAT IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!!
My God teaches Love. He also blesses me as a Homosexual. I pray for Rev. Gary Simmons & High Point Church. I hope they see the light and learn from this horific act. Who are they to judge another human being?
The Bible is real clear on the subject on homosexuality and if the family had been honest about the individual in question and what was to be included in the video memorial, this church would not have been in the position of declining the service after the initial offer had been made. As Christians, we can love the sinner and hate the sin which we do. However, demonstration of tolerance of a lifestyle that is an abomination in not required to love the sinner. Highpoint Chruch is known for acceptance of any sinner who is willing to turn away from a sinful life and be reborn to live a life for Christ and spread the Gospel. They did absolutely nothing wrong and should be humbled to suffer this persecution for Christ. Gary Simons is demonstrating the truthful walk that is written of in the Bible and I stand with him and Highpoint Chruch.
Fair enough Kelly. High Point has the right to refuse anyone it doesn’t want on it’s premises. They have the right to their beliefs.
Let me ask you this - how was the family not honest?
Jeff, who works as a janitor didn’t hide his brother, all reports indicate the church had been praying for Cecil especially during his illness, and when the family went to the church to make arrangements Cecil’s partner Paul went also and was introduced as Cecil’s partner.
So help me understand, since you seem to know High Point Church.
The church cancelled the memorial a day before they chose to host it. Why go ahead with 3 days of planning if they could not host in violation of their faith?
Are you sure the church is suffering persecution for Christ?
Or is the backlash for other reasons?
The up-coming events in Gary’s Church:
Friday,September 21, 7:00 pm
Start your fall out right with a time of relaxation and fun at HPC’s Chik Nite, in the Main Sanctuary
OCTOBER 20: WOMEN BY GOD’S DESIGN - Bible Study
Saturday, October 20, 9:00 am – 4:00 pm, Main Sanctuary
Don’t miss a day of refreshing in the Word of God.
DECEMBER 8: WOMEN BY GOD’S DESIGN - Christmas Brunch
Saturday, December 8, 10:00 am – 1:00 pm
Join us for an elegant time of fashion and fabulous shopping.
*roaring from laughter*
Paul… I can only guess at what you went through during this time. I know my partner will have this fight with my parents. God does not preach hate and nether should churches regardless of what they preach on Sunday when it comes to serving a member of their congregation! They have done your partner a disservice that God would be very ashamed of as well as his brother who is faithful to his religion and all other followers who would follow the wisdom of this board….. SHAME ON THEM!!! MAY GOD JUDGE THERE DECISION; which we can’t but he will.
Please know that other Christians are appalled by this church’s action. Mega-churches are fueled by membership numbers, offerings, and tithes… may this reflect in the offering plate God’s disapproval!
One thing really bothers me about all these accusations towards Pastor Gary Simons. In alot of these accusations, I keep hearing the word “control”. I find that accusation to be hypocritical. Pastor Gary Simons is the senior member of leadership at Highpoint Church. He believes as the Bible says that he will be held accountable before God for the decisions that he makes as Senior Pastor. The Bible shows this principle to be true in several places. If Pastor Gary found issues with the content of the material that was presented to him, then it is his right, priviledge, and responsibility to take the action he believed was necessary to severe his participation with behavior that he believed was offensive. To call his behavior “controlling” is actually an attrempt to use guilt to control his decisions. The people that accuse the man of controlling are clearly guilty of using guilt to manipulate his decisions and to slander him. As far as his beliefs concerning homosexuality are concerned, again, Pastor Simons has a responsibility to his congregation to oppose a behavior that the Bible clearly says is wrong. God is the final authority and has put His expectations in writing. Pastor Gary Simons and the rest of us Christians have made commitments to follow Gods leading as we walk with Him and discover areas of our lives that are not pleasing to Him and that are destructive to us.
By the way, if anyone wants to use verses of the Bible that talk about not eating certain foods as justification to condone homosexuality or any other sin, may I suggest that you read the whole Bible and find out what it is saying before you conveniently mis-quote it to justify your behavior.If you are not willing to embrace the whole book, dont attempt to embrace any of it! You can not pick and choose the parts that you accept and reject the parts that you don’t agree with. Before you quote the scriptures concerning food and clothing, please quote the verses concerning homosexuality, or don’t quote any of it!
There really is a bottom line to all of this: God has made provision for us through the death and resurection of Jesus Christ to come free of behavior that destoys us and others around us. You can choose to accept this or reject this. Every person will stand before God and give an account for what we did with the opportunities that Jesus purchased for us. It really doesn’t matter what the media or any other group says, God is the final authority. You can twist anything any way that you want to, but it will not change Gods ways for us to live. He is the final authority, take it or leave it. His gift of true love (the ability to turn from destructive behavior) is held out to each one of us, please accept it.
Bill Dujka:
I am curious to know your opinion on what you mean by embracing the whole Bible or don’t embrace any of it. Do you agree that we are all sinners in some form or another? Isn’t the Bible and religion and God and the freedoms he provided us as human beings (free will) all about interpreting these things for ourselves and trying to live the best way we can? Are you really saying that if a person should disagree with or interpret differently one aspect of an everchanging Bible, that that person should disregard the Bible and any beliefs entirely and just try to live his or her life with no direction whatsoever? You claim to be a Christian, but this statement seems un-Christianline in my eyes. I have had many experiences with people with deep religious beliefs who are extremely quick to cast aside those who maybe don’t understand much about religion as unworthy. If you are reading this, I would hope that you would help answer my questions on this topic. I also have a few posts on Bene Diction’s second blog page regarding this incident.
Thank you
I’m not gay. I felt the need to say this because I read were the pastor of High Point Church said that he was getting a lot of negative emails and that the homosexual community are very organized giving the impression that the only people who could possibly be offended by the churches actions are gay people. I’m ashamed as a Christian. I don’t understand how someone can claim to teach the word of God and then turn away someone in need. They claim they refused to hold his funeral because the Bible says being homosexual is wrong. The Bible also says being envious, greedy, having impure thoughts, aldutery and fornication just to name a few are wrong. So, shouldn’t they just stop holding funerals for everyone seeing as how everyone is filled with sin? Christians are supposed to treat people as Christ would have. Christ embraced everyone. I can’t imagine how the family of this man must have felt when they received this slap in the face. How his partner must have felt. I pray that God will comfort them in their time of sorrow and I also hope that they are in a supportive church that understands the principle “Judge lest ye be judged.” It no wonder so many people are turning away from churches, apparently everyone is not welcomed.
I am not gay. Let me just say that first since the pastor if this church seems to think that only the gay community cares about this issue. I am absolutely applaud with this churches decision to retract on a dead mans memorial services. They should have compromised with this family instead of just taking back the offer to hold the services. They are what is wrong with churches today. High Point is only thinking of themselfs and not this grieving family. If they won’t hold services for a gay man then don’t hold services for adulterers, liars, hypocrites, addicts, thieves, murderers, prisoners, or immigrants, since the bible say these things are also wrong. I am completly ashamed to be a Christian and feel absolutely horrible for Mr. Sinclair and his family.
With the media coverage of Gary Simons slap at the family and friends of Cecil Sinclair, the pictures of Simons appearing in the news releases (and also on High Point Church’s website) seem to present him as a cartoon portrait of a gay man. Is he hiding behind his pulpit and his pronouncements and attempting to hide his real identity? This incident seems to suggest such, if one takes the picture of Simons at face value.
Apparently Simons has not studied the Gospels. Did not Jesus meet the Woman at the Well, not condemn the woman taken in adultery and never said one word about homosexual behavior. And when it came to defining the meaning of neighbor, he told the story of Good Samartian. Maybe gay Gary needs to spend time in a deeper study of the Gospels and prayer and see if he can learn the meaning of compassion.
Pel: I’ve seen the comments all over the web about what Gary looks like, how he may be gay etc. etc. Let’s not go there. He was supposedly really sick as a kid, what he looks like isn’t nearly as important as what he did and why, okay? Besides, while he is the proverbial front man, unless High Point Church is a dictatorship, this decision to harm this family wasn’t made in a vaccum. Thanks. BD
To Bill Dujka I have to wonder what your yearly salary is with this so called church? I’m sure your so called Pastor and you are being paid well to pretend to be Christ like. Hell will surely be full of Christians like you.
David: I see Bill is taking time to respond to you. I haven’t had an opportunity to welcome either one of you.
Let’s be real, you and I are pretty much on the same page about the behavior of High Point Church leadership. I admit this thinking, the facts, the spin, has bothered me. I got to write posts and do research, you get your turn now. I am a hypocrite, and you may call me on it. Please, try not to attack Bill. Ask him hard questions, disagree vigorously. I’m swamped with emails and keeping up so I’m going to count on you and anyone who wants to take you on to treat each other with a lot more respect than High Point Church staff treated Cecil Sinclair and the people that loved him. Okay?
Priddy,
I will be more than happy to respond to your questions. I would request that you allow me to have a few days before I answer you. A fellow worker is on vacation this week and we have to work overtime to cover for him. Unfortunatly, automobiles don’t stop breaking down when fellow employees go on vacation, especially in the middle of a 105 degree heatwave.
I believe your questions are good and sincere and you deserve the best possible answers. I would prefer to be at my best and also have time to prayerfully search through the scriptures that never change to make sure you are recieving quality answers. I will make one short comment now concerning your above questions: I am not suggesting that people throw their Bible away at all….I am suggesting that they either embrace all of it, not just the parts that agree with themselves and stop using and twisting portions of it out of context to justify behavior that God in His Bible does not condone. I will get back to you regarding your questions as soon as is reasonably possible.
To David,
I sense some overtones in your above message that seem to point to financial abuse within Churches. I am fully aware of many of those situations that you may be hinting at. I will tell you this: I have been on the receiving end of some of that abuse so I think I can relate to your feelings. I can also assure you of this: I have had to learn the hard way to be careful who I trust. I have been tied in with some very prominent ministries of whom I will not mention. The minute I discovered that they were going down the greed/manipulation road I walked away from them. I also wrote them letters specifically pointing out their behavior and gave them examples of what their behavior does to real people and families. It makes me very angry when they refuse to see the facts when they are presented to them. I have had to work very hard to keep my faith when people misrepresented the Bible for their own financial gain. I will also assure you of this: God will deal with them. I will also assure you of this: God is not like the people that misrepresent Him. I don’t own a new house and I don’t drive a new car. I have no problem with people that do HONESTLY earn such things. At this point I am making some sacrifices in order to gain some knowledge needed in my field of work so I can earn more in the future.
As far as the topic that is being discussed is concerned, I would request more information regarding your dis-satisfaction with the way Pastor Gary Simons addressed the above situation.
David, we don’t agree with homosexuality or any other sin. Sin is not sin because God wanted to make up a bunch of rules, sin is sin because it damages people.
The Church was within their full rights to take action to sever themselves from actions that could have had a hint of condoning such behavior.
David, I have been involved in alot of things that have caused damage to both myself and others around me. I am thankful for the sacrafice that Jesus made to purchase my way out of behavior that owned me. True Christianity does not only provide forgivness for the quilt, it also provides a way to become free from the actions that cause the guilt. Believe me, I am very good at finding phoney and distructive behavior and abuse within the Church. I am in the process of examining Highpoint Church before I join their membership, and I will tell you this……..I find no fault in the leadership. If you would like to disclose more spicifically any facts regarding your complaints towards the way he handled the situation feel free to do so. At this point, I’m not exactly clear on what your complaint is.
As far as Pastor Gary Simons is concerned, he is taking every reasonable step afforded to him to live in a manner that is acceptable to the God he has chosen to serve. He has stood up like a man against behavior that the Bible clearly says is wrong.
Let me ask you this: would you rather see him act in a manner that compromises his beliefs in order to please all people around him so he could become popular with everyone and gain fame and fortune in that manner, or is it better for him to tell the truth even when people will reject him and persecute him. I seem to remeber a story about another man that stood up to behavior that God didn’t approve of. His name is John the baptist. The truth cost him his very head, but you know what? His choice may have cost him his physical life…….but his lack of compromise resulted in the gaining of his eternal security….and that sure is a whole lot better than a few years on this earth. Jesus made a way: accept it or reject it.
Bill: Welcome to BDBO. I’d like to ask you the same question I asked Elaine; for clarification as people who want to start to discuss deeper issues - are you here on behalf of High Point Church?
Have you been asked to represent High Point Church’s point of view?
Thanks for holding up your end of the conversation!
Bill Dujka:
I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to give me a quick response to let me know you think my questions deserve thoughtful answers. I hope the temperatures drop a bit for you as I can not stand much above 80 degrees. I look forward to reading your responses in the coming days. Also, on BD’s second page on this topic, I had some other questions directed at another blogger (specifically, where do our religious leaders draw the line) which were not answered. If you have time, I would appreciate any insight you have there as well.
Thank you.
Priddy: I want to say thank you for the links! I left you a comment in the other thread - it may get buried. The other question you asked - it is very good question and you should take a crack at answering it. I don’t think that’s talking to yourself at all.;^)
Has anyone ever read about Sodom and Gamora in the Bible. I suggest you people read up on it. Pastor Gary Simons, should be a blue print for every church in America.
Bill:
Okay, now that you’ve been properly welcomed, here we go.
“One thing really bothers me about all these accusations towards Pastor Gary Simons. In alot of these accusations, I keep hearing the word “control”. I find that accusation to be hypocritical. Pastor Gary Simons is the senior member of leadership at Highpoint Church. He believes as the Bible says that he will be held accountable before God for the decisions that he makes as Senior Pastor.”
Do you want me to say the leadership of High Point Church is out of control?
That’s an easy position.
The 3 statements from Gary Simons in The Dallas Morning News, Associated Press, the church service and the actual ’statement’ by the church are out of control.
These statements came freely from the most senior leader and founder.
It wouldn’t matter if the whole world saw Cecil Sinclairs memorial video and proved Gary Simons words dead wrong.
It would not matter if High Point Church leadership were found to be bald faced liars or sadly misinformed about most of what happened. It would not matter if some or all of Gary Simons leaders disagreed with him. It doesn’t matter.
This is about power.
This is not only about power, but about who wields it.
“To call his behavior “controlling” is actually an attrempt to use guilt to control his decisions. The people that accuse the man of controlling are clearly guilty of using guilt to manipulate his decisions and to slander him.”
arrr arrr arrrrr!
This is such a classic power play.
The Sunday statement by High Point Church tried that manuveur.
What to do when Christians aren’t buying it?
I recommend you read Paige Patterson’s response.
Now there is a master.
High Point Church leadership could take some lessons.
(Paige Patterson is the President of Southwestern Baptist Seminary and one of the architects of the conservative take over in the Southern Baptist Church)
Christians all over the world are responding to the decisions made by High Point Church toward this family. Some with maturity, some less so.
“He has stood up like a man against behavior that the Bible clearly says is wrong.”
Well no, I don’t think he did at all.
Neither do thousands of Christians.
You tell us. How many emails phone calls and letters has the church received?
Sort out the supposed organized homosexual community responses.(God bless them all)
Still thousands.
Oh.
I believe you believe that Gary Simons had to make the decision he made. If you are joining this church, you’d better believe it.
Someone had to make it. Good God, they’d have had a memorial service for a gay person if he hadn’t!
Classic, muddy the water 101.
The Sinclairs, The Wrights, Paul Wagner, their friends - refuse to be victims. That’s a pickle.
So High Point Church leadership takes that position by default.
Matt:
I think some people would have read about them.
Genesis 18
Genesis 19
Luke 10:12
The sin of inhospitality.
Did you really want to go there?
http://theconnexion.net/wp/?p=2921
I’m so confused with all this discussion… Although everyone wants to think they have all the answers, I don’t think anyone does.
This issue reminds me why I’ve pretty much given up on religion. The Bible seems to have a lot of instructions for us to live by, but it appears people feel it best to pick and choose what they will believe, live by, fight for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zhNiGlogQ
The one thing from Sunday School that sticks with me - and has been lost by most Christians, Muslims, and most every other ‘religion’ is a unique concept that could solve a lot of the ills in this world - most of which are outgrowths of religion. The concepts of my god is better than your god, my church better than your church, my beliefs outweigh your beliefs, my rights are more fundamental than your rights, my religion says what you do is wrong so you are bad bring a lot of conflict, sadness and ugliness. What is that concept? Remember what Jesus taught? Love thy neighbor as thyself. It’s not all that hard, people!
Leave the judging and condemnation to God. It’s His job, I don’t think your shoulders are strong enough to carry the weight required to take on that responsibility.
Matt:
Before I go ahead and throw up, I would love for you to give a quick recap of S & G for those of us (me) who don’t know the story. Then, what I would love even more is for you to explain why you think this dude should be a “blue print for every church in America.”
BD:
I feel like I’m taking over your blog. Feel free to write me personally or on your forum if I get out of line or post too many times.
And your post on the other page was (hopefully) answered by me. I am too into these blogs to let any of the posts slip through.
Jim:
I agree that nobody on here has the answers. I know I am here to learn from all of you and hopefully give some insight on my beliefs to one or two of you simultaneously. I agree that it should all be about the love. Loving one another is difficult, especially when we disagree, but it’s so much easier than hate, anger, fighting, and all that other negative crap. You’re also right about religions practically battling with each other. All of the petty arguing that people do regarding this God versus that God versus that higher power takes away from our core beliefs. This is why I too do not belong to a church or a specified religion. I don’t believe I need to classify myself as a Christian, Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, etc, etc. in order to receive my God’s love.
Priddy, you aren’t taking over. Enjoy, this is fun. ( I think our conversations are dreaded diversity some pale at) Thanks for your contributions:^)
By the way, has anyone checked out the statement on Low Point’s website? Apparently the story now is that “hugging and kissing” was a euphemism for “touching a man’s genitalia”. Funny how those pictures have escaped the eyes of every media outlet that has examined the photos (which have been provided to all who have asked). Perhaps they were so busy looking for the “hugging and kissing” they missed the orgies and porn? Ridiculous.
One also has to wonder, if those photos were removed from the ones given to the church, why have they not been returned to the family? And what on earth is the church doing with them?
I just felt that a few words needed to be said. Pastor Gary Simmons is a great man of God and he is no fake.
I just pray that if there is a true praying Christian out there they will lift up their words to God and not the world. Please lift up the family and HighPoint. I pray for you guys that god will touch your hearts and release the anger that’s in there.
No one minds you telling us Gary Simons is a lovely man of God at all.
His faith is not the subject of discussion here. His public words and behavior are.
I think people can deal with their anger just fine Bree, but thanks for your concern. Keep praying.:^)
Now, I do hope you aren’t what bloggers call ‘hit and runs’ - one time posters who don’t read what is written, come in to express your opinion and take off.
I have a question for you. How many of your gay friends attend High Point Church?
Is Jeff Sinclair a member of High Point Church or just an employee?
AngelSong:
Would you link this, email it to me or cut and paste into the comment section?
I’m not finding it.
If Gary Simons has said this, and supposedly has these ‘pictures’, or supposedly even destroyed them - I think we need to get this information into the right hands.
Thanks.
What does Romans 1:24-27 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 say?
I am confused why no one quotes these verses. Does someone delete blogs that ask?
Romans 1 talks about people who are inflamed with lust so that their “natural” use of sex as use of property to fulfill a bodily need is exchanged for an “unnatural” use of sex as a compulsion or addiction. It also refers to people who have stopped worshipping God. Neither part is applicable to gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians who worship and love God and who bear in their lives and witness an overabundance of the Gifts and Fruits of God’s Spirit.
The verse in 1 Cor you cite denounces pederasty.
Any more questions?
It is not my intention to offend anyone, may God reveal His Truth to all of us.
Love always and God bless all
Hi Ricky: I don’t understand your question. ” Does someone delete blogs that ask?”
Are you asking why your comment is held in a moderating cue?
I am sorry if you feel you aren’t being heard. I have to sleep and live my life, if I’m not getting to you as quickly as you’d like I apologize. I trust responses by others also being held up because comments are moderated is sufficient reasoning for you. You are most welcome to participate, I’ll get to you as quickly as humanly possible.
Here is Romans 1: 24-27
“Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Here is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Ricky: This has been discussed elsewhere in the Arlington High Point Church post and comments. The laundry list of sins Paul lays out for us.
AngelSong has answered you. After Paul lists sins he says:
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? Romans 2: 1 - 4
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Context Ricky.
Context.
Arlington High Point Church - as much as Gary Simons might like to call it Jerusalem - is neither Jersualem or the Kingdom of God.
The actions, behavior and words toward a grieving family are self condemning.
While I disagree with this Church’s teachings on gays, it has the right to stand to it’s principles; whether we agree with them or not. It would be hypocrisy of them to allow a funeral (where loved ones would condone gay lifestyle) but believe that it is an abomination.
To not allow the Church to adhere to it’s own teachings would be un_American and Facist.
All I’m going to say is this… every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. Whether you choose to believe that or not, it will happen.
Hi Leah, who are you addressing your comment to, and how do you mean it to fit into the context of the post?
Your Quote #1: “These good church going folks have no trouble with watching extreme wrestling, hugging in sports events, heterosexual pr0n, violent movies and who knows what else.”
Where did you come up with that nonsense? Talk about misinformation and lies… Let’s stick with the facts ok?
Your quote #2: “How dare Gary Simons decide Cecil Sinclair was an unrepentant sinner.
He surmised this how, exactly?
Direct line to the Holy Spirit?
Email from God?”
This is an easy one. The Bible says that he is an unrepentant sinner. If you have homosexual sex, you are sinning. If you don’t repent from your sin, you are unrepentant. So, uh, there you go… Unrepentant sinner.
Your quote #3: “I think divorced people, adulterers, domestic abusers, liars, hypocrites, addicts, lazy people, thieves, murderers, prisoners, immigrants, foreigners, over eaters, selfish, insensitive people and all the rest of us sinners should go on your list of who you won’t allow in your facility for funeral or memorial services.”
Why did you lump “immigrants & foreigners” in with your list of sinners? That’s just dumb.
You obviously have your own agenda. This story is just a tool for your to spout off your beliefs. Problem is, your emotions have taken over your intelligence. Your blog is ridiculous because your too angry and your posting lies and misinformation. You’ve got passion. So, keep trying.
Hi Erich:
Yes, I’m angry. I’ve experienced a range of emotions looking into what occurred between this family and this church.
You are free to tell me you think my anger is silly, you are welcome to acknowledge you see my ‘agenda.’ This is one of the estimated 100 million blogs online and if you are upset with beliefs expressed, that’s fine.
Immigrants and foreigners. Hmmm. Well, as a Canadian I’m a foreigner to you, aren’t I? I tread a fine line any time I write about religious fundamentalism in the US.
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