If Arlington High Point Church wants to exclude gays that’s fine, they can live with their ‘right’ decision.

I believe to behave the way they did deserves as strong a censure as possible, even from those that take your point of view.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I’m asking AngelSong to put the brakes on exegisis also, it gets too easy for us to veer into personal asides and snides as comment threads get longer. The last 25 comments on this post are sort of a clue, one person has managed to get a word in edgewise.;^)

We’ve covered rights, legalities, image, hospitality, honesty, principle, policy, obligations, facts, conjecture, culture, criticism, faith - I don’t think we’ve missed much.

As much as I have enjoyed our correspondence, it appears that the blog owner has just asked me to discontinue posting. Bene, I am sorry that we have kinda taken over this blog. I guess we should really use our own time (and bandwidth). :^)

So, I will exit with this:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

…if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. - Romans 10:9-10

Your argument to support your own bibliolatry is rather intriguing. I suspect that my LSAT students would spot the logical flaw immediately. Let me get this right — God is only revealed through God’s Word in the Bible, but the Bible is true because the Bible says it is God’s Word and God’s Word is true… it’s circular logic, all predicated on the idea that the Bible (and particularly your own interpretation of it, completely unencumbered by anything like historical criticism, source criticism, textual criticism, even logic and reasoning because of course God is above logic and reasoning) is the inerrant Word of God precisely because the Bible says it is the inerrant Word of God.

And I still don’t understand how you can try to justify putting your faith in a TEXT, a written, rewritten, copied, recopied, translated, retranslated text, REPLETE with errors and ambiguity in translation and elevate that TEXT above the Revelation of God through God’s Holy Spirit. I’m very curious as to what faith tradition you come from that would practice such irresponsible bibliolatry. Perhaps something non-denominational that is built completely on uneducated people who think the text “speaks for itself”?

And the circular logic still applies to your arguments about the Bible and homosexuality. (Really, don’t go to law school, you would be expelled!) Let’s see now — homosexuality is a sin because your interpretation of the text says it is a sin, and your interpretation of the text is correct because it is in line with what God has said, but God’s Word is only revealed through the text, so any interpretation of the text that does not agree with your understanding of the way God has been revealed in the text is incorrect because it contradicts the Word of God which is only revealed in your interpretation of the text. Rather intriguing, although I think I have a headache now.

Really, rather than citing random Scriptures in an attempt to proof-text your argument, why don’t you actually try some analysis of the texts in question? I’ll start with some easy ones for you:

How does your interpretation of the text that reveals God who can never be contradicted deal with the apparent contradictions of your interpretation as presented in Mark 9:39-41, Isaiah 56:3-5, Matthew 19:12, Gal. 3:28, the healing of the centurion’s lover, and the baptism of the Ethiopian?

Secondly, if the Levitical Code, the basis of your entire argument, prohibits homosexuality as you seem to think it does, then why is homosexuality only prohibited for men, but not for women? and why does the verse use a word connected with idolatry and ritual uncleanliness rather than a word that would mean inherently evil or sinful?

That’s a good start!

Blessings!

Are you done?

I think many people commenting here are familar with biblioatry. Your exgesis is becoming circular, and I don’t think that is intentional.

If you and AngelSong needed to ‘win’ your discussion, then you both have, by working at respectfully presenting your point of view.

I commend you for acknowledging orthodox Christians do not agree with you on everything, they are not your enemy, people are not an agenda, and personal insults have no place in emotional and heartbreaking series of decisions.

A man died.
His name was Cecil Howard Sinclair.
He was loved, by his mom and dad, his brothers, sisters, partner, neices, nephews, co-workers and friends.

AngelSong, Paul Wagner and Elaine Simons have a personal stake in what occurred around his death, you and I have not, and I’d appreciate it if you moved on now.

Thank you for your contribution to the comments here at BDBO.

This is where your deceitful heart gets the best of you. You are obviously a smart and caring person. But, your heart lies to you. What you have said makes no sense. We DO NOT have different ways of knowing God. You CAN NOT know God apart from the scriptures. That is how He revealed Himself to mankind.

Don’t you see how your entire logic is flawed? You speak of God and even use Bible verses to argue certain points. You will throw out words like exegesis and books that nobody knows like Stuttgart and Nestle-Aland. But, then (in the same breath) you will say that that same Bible is unreliable. Which is it?

You are dishonest when you say “God is the small-minded, narrow, petty, bigoted, hateful creature that you make Him out to be. ” I did not say that or imply that. Nor is that anywhere in scripture.

Here is the God that revealed Himself to mankind through the Bible:
God is almighty - Genesis 17:1
God is gracious - Exodus 34-6
God is slow to anger - Exodus 34-6
God is abounding in loving kindness - Exodus 34-6
God is merciful - Deuteronomy 4:31
God shows no partiality - Deuteronomy 10:17
God accepts no bribes - Deuteronomy 10:17
God executes justice for widows and orphans - Deuteronomy 10:17
God is gracious - 2 Chronicles 30:9
God is compassionate - 2 Chronicles 30:9
Gos is greater than man - Job 33:12
God is a righteous judge - Psalm 7:11
God is our deliverer - Psalm - 18:2
God is our refuge - 46:1
God is our strength - 46:1
God is the King of all the earth - 47:7
God is our help - Psalm 54:4
God sustains us - 54:4
God saves - Psalm 68:20
God is holy - Psalm 99:9
God is our salvation - Isaiah 12:2
God is sovereign - Daniel 5:21
God is forgiving - Daniel 9:9
God is righteous is everything He does - Daniel 9:14
God is truthful - John 3:33
God is for us - Romans 8:31
God is faithful - 1 Corninthians 10:13
God is a God of peace - 1 Corinthians 14:33
God is one - Galatians 3:20
God is just - 1 Thessalonians 2:5
God is the builder of everything - Hebrews 3:4
God is light - 1 John 1:5
God is greater tan our hearts - 1 John 3:20
God is love - 1 John 4:8

What about Love? See 1 Corinthians 13
Love is patient
Love is kind
Love does not envy
Love does not boast
Love is not proud
Love is not self-seeking
Love is not easily angered
Love keeps no records of wrong
Love does not delight in evil
Love rejoices in truth
Love always protects
Love trusts
Love hopes
Love perseveres

I would suggest you look at all of those descriptions carefully.

That is the God that I know and the God that I trust and the God that I have faith in.

I follow the God that revealed Himself to mankind (through the Bible) and I agree with Him.
Every word of God is flawless - Proverbs 30:5

so…

You are in error because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God - Matthew 22:29

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away - Luke 21:33

ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and trining in righteousness- 2 Timothy 3:16 (notice the word “all)

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. - 2 Peter 1:19-21

You on the other hand (by your own admission), have created your own god. A god that agrees with you.
The foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom… - 1 Corinthians 1:25

So, either accept is or reject it. But, don’t insult your own intelligence and waste your time (and life) by creating your own god and picking and choosing what you want out of the Bible. God did not give you that option.

But I will add something else. Let’s suppose that you are right, and God is the small-minded, narrow, petty, bigoted, hateful creature that you make Him out to be. If God is not a God of love and welcome, a God who brings life and brings it abundantly, a God who sets the captives free and lifts up the downtrodden — then Hell would be the lesser of the two evils.

Problem is:

I validate my perception of reality by what the bible says. If my observation conflicts with the bible, I know my perception is wrong.

You validate God’s word from your own experience. You said “So you have your interpretation of a text, and then you have the clear and unmistakable evidence of what God’s Holy Spirit is doing. I’ll go with the LIVING Word of God over a text any day.”

So, how do you know what the gifts of the Holy Spirit are?
How do you know who the Holy Spirit is?
How do you know anything about God’s character?
How do you know anything about God’s truth?

The answer to all of these questions is that God revealed himself to us through His Word. Which is the bible. There is NO other way to know Him.

You have created your own God by using and applying the scripture that your prefer and then you reject the scripture that contradicts your perception of reality.

So, again, my authority is God based on His Word.

Your authority is your own experiences.

So, I will leave you with two verses (even though I know you really don’t regard the scriture as your tru authority):

“There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death” - Proverbs 14:12

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? - Jeremiah 17:9

I know your way seems right to you. But, your judgment and perception is skewed because we all have decitfil and wicked hearts. You listen to your heart and do not listen to God.

I’m just saying that if you believe a lie; it will not matter how much faith you have in it, how committed you are to it & how strongly you believe is… it will not make it true.

But you are also right about our approach to Scripture. You seem to think that a literalistic, shallow, and above all traditional reading of the text is inspired by the Holy Spirit, no matter how much such an interpretation contradicts the tenets of the Gospel as Jesus taught and lived it. Again, take careful note of Jesus’ teachings on Scripture when he spoke with religious leaders. They were so caught up in their interpretation of the text and following it to the letter (literal, shallow, traditional reading) that they completely missed the SPIRIT of the text. I’ll say again — when an interpretation of a text is used to hurt rather than to heal, when it is used to hate rather than love, to destroy and bring death rather than to restore and bring life — then that reading goes against the very Spirit of God, no matter how traditional it may be.

Look at the example of Jesus. Who did he spend his time with? Those whom the religious leaders had declared not good enough, outside of the circle of God’s Favor. And who was he the most in opposition to? The religious leaders who used their positions of power to oppress, to hurt, to bring death.

See Jesus as he really was, reaching out to the poor, the downtrodden, the oppressed. Touching a leper who has been cast out of society. A woman whose flowing of blood renders her unclean. A blind man who the church said was cursed by God because of his parents sin. And a centurion’s lover who was in a completely foreign land.

See the Jesus who spoke words of promise and life to all corners of the marginalized. Who came to bring life so that all might have it abundantly. Who brought liberation to those who were enslaved by tradition and culture, the women, the children, the slaves, the “unclean”, and yes — the sexual minorities as well. See that Jesus, that Holy Spirit, the one who demonstrates the TRUE Gospel of God, the REAL Truth of God — and ask yourself whose truth he lived.

Blessings!