Yesterday I posted a story on a family in Texas whose son Cecil died. The Sinclair family made arrangements for a memorial service in the church his brother Jeff worked for.Â
As arrangements were being finalized the church withdrew their offer for a memorial service obstensively because of minister Gary Simons and church offense of the memorial video the family put together. Paul Wagner:
First of all, let me start by stating that it was a member of the church who offered the use of their facility to us, on behalf of his brother who is/was a member of their congregation. I was introduced to this man as Cecil’s partner. To my knowledge, this person at least was fully aware that we were living openly as a couple. This same member of the church, when were later advised that we could not use the facilities, on his own, with money from his own pocket, not church coffers, went and procured another facility for the funeral. The church did not do so. At no time did a member of the church contact us to indicate that they had a problem with any part of the service we were planning. We never had contact with the minister or any of the administration.
I commented, and I commented strongly. I commented strongly because there is no indication this church leadership behaved in an appropriate way.
There is no justification for bigotry, lack of communication to a grieving family and bad policy.
None.
The public statements and behavior of the church leadership condemns the church leadership.
While explanations may clarify, and sides may get chosen, nuances and facts of the circumstances are coming to light. Â
Paul Wagner has corrected an error I made. High Point Church did not offer to pay for another facility, I posted they had. I was wrong. He also corrected another error. I stated the church sent food. They did not. I was also wrong about church leadership involving themselves in this families grief.
They did not. Instead Gary Simona chose to speak his mind to a reporter without regard or sensitivity to facts.
I believe many people who attend High Point Church do not agree with the lack of communication, theology and behavior Gary Simons and church leadership has shown.Â
I think that 3500 5000 (?) church members are the only ones who can speak clearly to power, even as word of this sad and preventable event has gone around the world.
While this church has been publicly shamed by what Simons has said, and the actions of some members, to the members of High Point Church I can only say, own your own beliefs and behavior.Â
This is a double loss and a cautionary story.
While media can bring events to a larger audience, and blogs can fill in details, only members of High Point Church can speak to their leaders, demand accountability and clarity of policy so what happened to the Sinclair family never has to happen again. Each church member can get on their knees before God and allow Him to examine their heart, get up and go do what the love of God bids them do.Â
1) My post is here.Â
The Dallas Morning News piece was written by Jeffrey Weiss, an experienced religion reporter. Here is an interview with him. Read it. There is no excuse for labelling this member of the media as liberal, biased, uninformed or anti-Christian.
His piece was clear.
He gave the family, the church, and an expert ample room to speak.Â
As with any loss and grieve there are never just sides.
2) The original article by Dallas Morning News reporter Jeffrey Weiss is here.Â
Since I posted yesterday I have heard from some of the people intimately involved in the shunning.  Gordon, a friend of Cecil; AngelSong, who tipped the Dallas Morning News to what occurred; and Cecil’s partner Paul Wagner. As well there have been a couple of clarion and loving comments from US Christians; email telling me I was going to burn in hell, and a comment from John who believes Arlington High Point Church had a right and responsibility to condemn sin.
These voices deserve to be heard.
As a reporter I know no story put out is ever complete, the telling of events in people’s lives is not like a coin, it is more like a multi-faceted gem,  Our lives, our events and our interactions are complex, there is always a back story, the unheard voice. Listening is so important, far more important than keying in the facts and making deadlines.
I did a search yesterday looking for blogs from High Point Church, and for people who knew what had occurred. God bless them, some came to BDBO.
I went through every news outlet that picked up Weiss’ article.
I went through every blog that had posted yesterday.Â
In all the blogs I looked at: identified Christian, none believers, observers, and military, I did not find anyone who believed that what Gary Simon and High Point Church did was appropriate.
Let those who where there speak. For Cecil. For themselves.Â
Gordon, a friend of Cecil Howard Sinclair:
I  personally knew Cecil… he was a good and decent man, probably a better man than most of these self-righteous hypocrits who attempted to deny him the respect due any human being… even posthumously. To deface his memorial video and attempt to devalue the important things that Cecil believed in is an outrage and a travesty of everything good and tolerant and loving that Christ stood for.
The people of that ‘church’ should be embarassed and ashamed of their church’s now-ugly reputation.
Gordon, we now have information the video was not defaced. There was nothing on it that even the most ardent anti-GLBT person would need to have seen removed. Nothing. Cecil was so so much more than his sexual preference, and I am not impressed with High Point Church for attempting to paint his life and the circumstances of his family the way they did. I am sorry for your loss.
AngelSong, who chose to act instead of stay quietly on the sidelines:
As an avid reader and commentor on the blogs, I tipped the Dallas Morning News of this, which broke the story yesterday. Since then, a lot more details have come to light, including a comment on the DMN Religion Blog from Cecil’s family. I’m sure you won’t be all that surprised by Paul’s response, and I hope it gets at least as much coverage as did the church’s attempt at justification.
AngelSong gets it. Paul Wagner is as much family as Cecil’s parents and siblings. AngelSong, you have demonstrated so well that meekness has a steel backbone. Meekness is courage.Â
Dave, shocked, grieving, a friend of Cecil Howard Sinclair left a comment asking for people to care for Cecil’s family at Of course I could be wrong. Principled.
John, who believes High Point Church made a righteous decision:
Why dont you quit bending the story. The video was not dehfaced by anyone. It is a video created by the church for the family that consisted of pictures that the family submitted to them. Without the church there would be no video. The church objected to CELEBRATING a lifestyle of sin. The church has a responsibility to stand for what is right. Yes even at the risk of offending some people. That is not hate that is the essense of love. When you are not afraid to reveal to people their wrong ways. Loving people is not a popularity contest. Its similiar to being a parent . most kids dont always think their parents are “loving†them when they are being corrected. But the truth is that the fact that a parent corrects and diciplines their child is the evidence of their love. That is the purpose of the church. So to demand that they compromise their principles just to make the gay (sinful) community happy …. well they might as well just close down the church because what purpose do they serve then.
John, we are talking about adults, not children, the church is not a parent, the church is a flawed interdependent body of believers.Â
High Point Church is not subject to denominational policy.Â
Under the laws of the US, church leadership has the right to make any rules it chooses for any reason leadership chooses.
Let Paul Wagner give you some facts.
On Tuesday morning, we gave the church a total of 83 various pictures of Cecil that were forwarded to us by various members of his family. Of those, not a single one showed a man hugging or kissing another man, nor were there any overtly homosexual references. Cecil’s sister Kathleen sat and worked with the two people preparing the video and went through all of the photos with them. There was only one photo which would be considered offensive, as it was a picture of him in his early 20s making a rude gesture at his best friend who was taking the photo. We removed it and never asked that it be included. It was just overlooked in the rush to get things done. These individuals went through all the other photos, which were pictures of family gatherings, birthday parties, vacations, etc. At no time was anything expressed to her or us that they had a disagreement with any of the other photos.
Someone is lying.
Cecil’s sister Kathleen?
The media crew at the church? Gary Simons? Paul Wagner?
I challenge you John to send High Point Church money to pay for the time and trouble you seem to think this church was caused.
Without the church there would have been no video. You are correct.
The church put together the video.
Since money and ownership seems to be an issue for you, be a man, step forward and pay Arlington High Point Church for their time and supplies and use of their video editing facility and staff.Â
Then exercise your right to email Cecil’s mom and dad and tell them what failures they were at loving their son. Tell Jeff he had no right to ask his church to hold a service for his dead brother, and that his developmental problems are no excuse for his trust. Tell Kathleen Wright and Cecil’s niece they are fools to think people who claim to be God’s people are there to help in times of loss. Find the unknown Good Samaritan of High Point Church and tell him what his sin is for stepping forward and giving freely to those who were hurting.Â
You have the right to tell High Point Church leadership they need to fire these two video editors for helping Cecil’s sister celebrate his life. Let Gary Simons know what a great leader he is for standing up to ‘sin’ and sticking up for his ‘loving principles’ and protecting his leadership from being ‘taken back’.
But we can’t let facts get in the way can we, when we talk about sin?
On Wednesday evening about 6pm, we received a call. The person on the line put Cecil’s brother Lee, who is mentally impaired, onto the phone. Lee informed us that something was wrong, and then someone else got on the phone. That person informed us that a terrible string of errors was made, and that the service could no longer be held at their facility. We never spoke to the pastor nor anyone from his administration directly. It was all done through middlemen. When we requested to know why we could no longer use their facility, there was no answer. They simply stated a mistake was made.
Later that night, while we were scrambling to find another location, Cecil’s niece called back to the church and demanded an explanation. It was at that time a very long string of excuses began to form. First she was told that it was because we were bringing in outside food, which they didn’t allow. Then we were told it was because there was construction going on nearby which they felt would be too obtrusive. We said we didn’t think it would interfere. Then we were told it was because there was a scheduling conflict. When asked was other event was being held that was conflicting, the call was disconnected.
No one is arguing with you about rights John.
You are correct and I was wrong. Please accept my apology.Â
The video was not defaced by anyone.
Someone forgot to tell Gary Simons none of Cecil’s mourners would be ‘taken back.’
Gary Simons never saw the video, did he?
“Some of those photos had very strong homosexual images of kissing and hugging,†he said. “My ministry associates were taken aback.â€
The church also had the right to their confusion, errors, buck passing, back-peddling, cowardness, lies, and excuses to a grieving family.
Seems to me there is enough ‘sin’ to go around John, don’t you think?Â
We aren’t getting the full story, we never will.
The family certainly didn’t.
But it’s okay now because Gary Simons has clarified church policy and his theological belief.
To the world.
Arlington High Point Church has the right not to hold memorial services for gay people because they are sinners.
Hopefully your reading this helps to make sense of what occurred. I fully understand the church’s right to deny us the use of their facilities. I also served in the military, (US Army, 1987-2002), and I have fought to defend their freedom of religion and freedom of choice. If just one couple or family can be saved from having to suffer the same as we did, I would consider all this to have been worthwhile. I truly believe all congregations need to have more open communication between all their members, so that the person who had initially welcomed us into their church would have known that is was not acceptable in the eyes of their leaders, and the entire issue would have been avoided. If we had known from the beginning we were not welcome, or the offer had never been made, we would have just continued making the same arrangements we finally had in the end. Nothing we did for Cecil’s remembrance ceremony was changed, other than the location.
Paul Wagner’s full statement has been posted at the Dallas Morning News blog and here at BDBO.
215 news outlets have picked up the story of the Sinclair family and Arlington High Point Church.
There are over 2 thousand blog posts now.Â
Noise doesn’t make a story, people do.
The family and friends of Cecil Sinclair have told the world a truth – our lives are so much more than our sexuality. The family and friends of Cecil Sinclair have told us a truth -there are faithful followers of Jesus Christ who know how to listen to His Voice, and not brag to the right hand about what the left hand is doing.  Family and friends of Cecil Howard Sinclair have told us a truth – His love is bigger than any mega-church and never bound by our foolishness.Â
Thank you for bearing witness.
To the Sinclair’s,Wrights, Paul and Cecil’s friends, thank you.
You have reminded us as followers of Jesus Christ to be faithful in the small things – to grieve with those who grieve, to serve each other in love, integrity and humility.   You have reminded us how great the gift of our lives are, and how we forget to celebrate with love and gratitude.
Thank you for showing us grace in your grief,  and thank you for your courage in taking such private sorrow and shunning public. Thank you for your truth. Thank you for reminding us no church structure, no policy, no leader, no lies, labels and rules can or will dehumanize someone who is loved.  Let those of us that have ears to hear, hear.
The remembrance we held for Cecil I felt was wonderful. We started with a brief welcome by the officiator. A song (For the Fallen) was sung. Cecil’s obituary was read. We then played the video which was about 10 minutes long, showing him from childhood, graduation, his naval service, and family gatherings, especially those from his 46th birthday, which had just been on the 5th of July. The officiator then read from personal family statements and remembrances of him. His mother, father, uncle and sister had all contributed personal insights into his life that they were not able to state themselves due to grief. A time was then allowed for individuals to come to the mike and offer their own personal remembrances of him. The chorale then sang another song (Amazing Grace).
Pingback: Arlington High Point Church and it’s principles - The Sinclair family at Bene Diction Blogs On
Associated Press August 10, 2007
Angela K. Brown 6:55 pm
San Jose Mercury News
Gary Simons:
“… the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men “engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing.”
“Simons said the church believes homosexuality is a sin, and it would have appeared to endorse that lifestyle if the service had been held there.
“We did decline to host the service—not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle . Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it—yes, we would have declined then. It’s not that we didn’t love the family.”
“He said the church offered to pay for another site for the service, made the video and provided food for more than 100 relatives and friends.”
“Even though we could not condone that lifestyle, we went above and beyond for the family through many acts of love and kindness.”
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For shame! How can your church proclaim itself Christian when it violates the basic tenet of Christianity, the message of Jesus. That is love. Denying a funeral service to a homosexual man who served honoraly in the military is hypocritical, cruel and evil. Nowhere in the teachings of Jesus is homosexuality mentioned. You have deeply hurt the family of this man and brought shame upon yourselves. I cannot express he depth of my disdain for your hateful brand of Christianity.
As a born-again Christian, with Christ as my Saviour, your decision re the Sinclair passing is unconscionable. What would Jesus have done? He Loved Mr.Sinclair from his birth to his passing. Unlike your church which renders decisions on “principle,” Christ made all His decisons based on unconditional LOVE, something we should all show one another.
Just think if your church would have stated its displeasure with homosexuality, which is a sin, but out of the Love of Christ agreed to hold the gentleman’s funeral service. Last time i checked, we’re ALL sinners, including you folks in Texas. It is somewhat of an irony that your pastor’s brother-in-law is Joel Osteen. A few months ago, he and his wife flew in a private jet to Newport Beach California, near where I live and spent a week at the most expensive hotel and spa in the US, the Montage. A friend of mine, who works at the Montage, validated this information. How dispicable, when within a few miles people are homeless and in need & the Osteens, using money given to them by parishioners, spent over 50 thousand dollars for the week. REPULSIVE
Our pastor is Rick warren from Saddleback, far more famous worldwide than Joel Osteen. He takes NO salary, drives a 7 year-old car, lives in the same home for the past fifteen years and tithes 90% of his earnings from book sales..we know what Joel and his wife do with their money, they hoard it…as Christ said, “many will come in my name and I know them NOT.” He may well have been talking about your church’s pastor and wife in Arlington and their relatives just down the road…next time, you’re making a decision, make it based on God’s word, better known as the New Testament, not how you interpret the word.
I think that your choice to deny a man that happened to be gay a funeral makes you think you are above the law, and I am going to make sure I contact every legal person in the IRS, if you are going to be tax exempt then you must take care of everyone.
I have a gay brother, but what I really have are connections with lawyers and the IRS.
If you are a church that is god centered, and if god is love, what you have done by not hosting the service for the gay vet is a slap in gods face by not treating this man as god would have.
I am sorry you missed a chance to show Gods true love.
I feel sorry for you preaching hate. I realize you may believe homosexuality is a sin, but that man…the one you denied a funeral for…went to combat for this country to keep the freedoms that we so love so that you can freely have that choice to decide what you feel is a sin. He did not go to war and say oh I cannot go because that simon family is a bunch of bigots. He gave no second thought to anyone when he shipped out to defend this very hateful country. I hope you are given YOUR reward…sir!
Per the funeral cancellation due to the man being gay. What a wasted opportunity to minister to people of all persuasions. I think we have lost The Way long ago. We need new bracelets that say, What would Jesus REALLY do.?
Your refusal to conduct a funeral service is ludicrous. THOU SHALT NOT JUDGE…and here you are a mega church preaching judgment. You had all better get on your knees and beg for direction and “intelligence”.
DELIVER ME FROM HIGH POINT CHURCH IN ARLINGTON, TEXAS!!!
I am a Canadian who lived in San Diego for many years & knew many servicemen in the USN & USMC , who served America with distinction. Their willingness to put their lives on the line for all Americans ( & the western world) in defense of liberty , was impressive. Their patriotism was beyond reproach. But , as many died of the ravages of HIV, they were summarily rejected by conservative religious groups across the land. This travesty of human dignity & decency in Arlington , Texas , is but another example of the horrendous hypocrisy from the religious right. If I’m not taking up too much space , I’d like to include a great statement from a ruling by the US Supreme Court , several years ago : ” At the heart of liberty is the right to define ones own concept of existence ,of the meaning of the universe , and of the mystery of human life.” Such a ruling is viewed as anathema , of course, by those who are convinced that they possess the only truth there ever was ; despite an inability to substantiate their claim. My gratitude goes out to those good and decent people who gave Cecil Sinclair a funeral that was undoubtedly the pinnacle of love and respect.
Shame and disappointment. We are a Church of Love above all sins or possible sins. Shame. Shame Shame
As I read the posting here I Feel I must respond once again. As to the manner in which this situation is handled, if anything It seems that the communication was poorly handled. from several of the articles it appeare dthat threre were at least 2 separate plans as to how the funeral was going to be celebrated. Once the church became aware of this and that it was not compatible with their principle, it was altogeteher appropriate for them or the individual who offered the church to the family to to offer to pay for another venue. I am not ignorant of the emotional turmoil that the death of a loved one causes, I too have faced it recently, and I agree that the church HAS a higher degree of responsibility since they are not the ones that are in the middle of the turmoil. But that is about as far as I Am willing to agree with you. The continued argument of what the church SHOULD do requires a response. First Your comment that the church is independant and can make their own rules is …wel you miss the whole point. If this church is really what they say they are then they dont make their own rules . They submit to the rules that God set before them. Again I read your comment that we are not talking about children but that was an example of someone who loves yet corrects. Love is not a popularity contest and is not open to a consensus . Love is absolute. I continue to read the ” What would Jesus Do ” argument so lets look at what Jesus would Do . A rich young ruler came to him and said ” what must I do to have eternal life/” Jesus told him obey the commandments . He said ” I have alreadu done that” ( Because rules by themselves are easy to work with) Then Jesus said ” Sell all you have and give it to the poor , then come an follow me”. The bible goes on to say that the young man went off very sad because” he had much wealth” . In here Jesus was asking that he give everything that he was, his identity as a rich man in power, his security. Yet the man CHOSE not to. I have read this numerous times and nowhere does Jesus chase after the young man and sya …Wait, its ok you really dont have to do that ,just do what ever you want. Can you say that Jesus didnt love that man? He did he loved him so much that he exposed to him that which was keeping him from relationship with God. But the man chose his own way. That is what we are dealing with today. We want the benefit and the covering of the church and God but we dont want to give up our own way . We want the church to change to meet our caprecious desires and we through a tantrum when they dont.
I have read many articles on this unfortunate happening and exchanged blogs with my friends regarding what is right and wrong as it may pertain to this topic. I am not religious, by definition, nor am I gay, but the treatment of Cecil Sinclair in his wake disheartens me greatly. This was a man who served the United States, as a Naval Veteran of Desert Storm, to protect all our rights and freedoms. One of those freedoms is our freedom to believe what we choose. Some people think being homosexual is a choice while others stand true to the belief that homosexuality versus heterosexuality is something one is born with. In this instance, I don’t believe Mr. Sinclair’s sexual orientation should have disqualified him from being able to receive an honoring and a celebration of his life at this location that his family selected. By this judgement of High Point on Mr. Sinclair’s life, they have in essence set a precedent for qualifications and expectations of their members and followers. So, let’s say for example that “being gay” is a sin. Alright, then where does this church draw the line? Consider the 7 deadly sins: gluttony, sloth, pride, lust, greed, wrath, envy. Okay, first of all, I don’t see homosexuality on that list, but moving along…these sins are all committed by choice. Being overweight, lazy, vain…etc. are not (usually) traits one is born with. So these sins, along with other sins like murder, theivery, and lying (to name three) are considered pretty bad not only in various religions, but in society as a whole. So again, where is the line drawn? What if an overweight woman who passed away saving the lives of 14 children drowning in a school bus that fell in the river had a family who wanted pictures of her eating Oatmeal Creme Pies as part of the memorial service because they were her absolute favorite? Would High Point ban this obvious “sin” from their church because they did not want to condone gluttony? Again, where does this church draw the line? Where should we as compassionate human beings draw the line? Who deserves better treatment than another? That is our individual God’s decision. No human being should have or be believed to have the power to decide that one is better than another.
I don’t know whether Mr. Sinclair believed he was born gay or made that choice, or even if he thought he needed forgiveness for loving another man, but can someone answer me when I ask who is benefitting from judging this man and painting him as a sinner in the eyes of his God? Was High Point worried about how others would judge them if they supported a gay man? Was it a concern based on fear of losing monetary support from members who may not have agreed with a “gay” funeral?
I think the reason I don’t belong to a church or a specific religion is because it closes out so many possibilities, resulting in (in many cases) closed-minded people. I believe when joining a church, one is subscribing not truly to their God and their beliefs, but to their church’s and pastor’s (or reverand’s or preist’s, etc) interpretation of God, the Bible, and their religion.
I would like to join the others on this blog who have sent condolences to the family and loved ones of Cecil Sinclair. I also would like to say that the people involved in making the memorial service happen (wherever that was) should feel proud that they did not judge this man based on one aspect of his life that was none of their business. May Mr. Sinclair rest in peace.
Hi John:
I’m glad you came back. I used your comment because you were one of the first to defend High Point Church theology here at BDBO.
I’ve received a lot of email, some of which defended the church you were here early, and quite articulate.
a) We agree the communication between the family and the church was poor.
b) We agree the church has the right to it’s belief – they don’t memorialize dead gay people. We agree the church has the right to enforce their theology, their policies.
c) We agree the family had more than one plan in place. It appears the High Point Church option was pursued out of regard and love for Jeff. (Most of the family is Church of Christ – we don’t know what the alternative plans were) I don’t see having alternative plans as something odd at all. I am not hearing you say that is imprudent either.
d) We disagree on theology. I’ve seen others using the usual clobber verses, I’ve been clear many evangelicals and many followers of Jesus Christ do not hold to that biblical interpretation.
e) This family is grieving. Anger is an important and understandable part of grief. It most certainly is when communication breaks down.
I do not accept your terms ‘capricious ways’ and ‘tantrum.’ You disagree with how their grief is being expressed and are telling us their grief is not appropriate. Okay.
f) I understand you are defending your theology with ‘love is absolute’ and ‘what would Jesus do.’ You believe the bible says what you’ve stated about homosexuality, and therefore this church should not dispatch gay people and violate their belief.
g) Go to Religion News Blog or the weekly Christianity Today weblog and read the crime section. Then come back and tell me churches (as structures and individual leaders) don’t arbitrarily make their own rules. A percentage do sadly, it’s naive to say some don’t.
h) Agape love is absolute. It covers us. Philos, famiial and eros can only strive toward modelling the ideals of agape. The church is not your parent, the rules are not enforced with that kind of authority. That is a conservative mindset – authority as the stern but benevolently loving.Â
A  congregation is not passive, they are to be Bereans. The church community is to be forebearing, humble, serving.
Paul give us the action list of our sinful mind in Romans 1.
Well, that’s us then, isn’t it? Here are lovely clobber verses from those of us who see the actions of Gary Simons and High Point Church and Simon’s words as less than Christlike. Then Paul says:
“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? Romans 2:1-4 NIV
I am repeating myself.Â
I do not think the bible and theology were the key issues that caused this story to blow up around the world.
You do. I think I’m hearing you say I’m not giving Simon’s theology any slack, it’s important to you to defend High Point Church’s right to believe what they do. I hear you trying to tell me their decision was scriptural. Okay. I hope you feel you’ve been heard.
Given what we know, what can be done differently?
Wow. I am not on here to argue. But, I defend what Gary Simons did. How can you expect a church leader to agree to show a video of 2 homosexual men in the house of God. The world is becoming so lost. Homosexuality is wrong. And this is written in the Word of the Bible. Please read it. “If any of you partake in these sins, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven”. Homosexuality is one of these. You must repent and turn from this sin. Yes, Jesus and God are about love but yes there are conditions. You must ask for forgiveness and repent. Repent means to turn from you sin. Die to yourself and your fleshy desires. I will pray for all of you.
Hi Elaine:
Did you see Cecil Sinclairs memorial video?
If you did, please tell us what you found offensive in it.
And you knew Cecil?
You were there when he died, and you know for certainty the state of his immortal soul?
You can believe the bible condemns homosexuality if you want to, no one is going to argue with you.
I’m sure everyone appreciates your prayers.
My questions for this church and it’s pastor (who looks really gay to me on his web site….hmmm….think he might just be overcompensating the other direction in his hatred of his secret self??? Think maybe he might just be another Ted Haggard type preacher doing crystal methamphetamines with a gay prostitute on the side???) are as follows:
(1). “What would Jesus do in this circumstance”?
(2). Since High Point Church doesn’t like burying “sinners” and “it isn’t because of discrimination”, could I please have the list of all those perfect (sinless) heterosexual folks that they have allowed to use their facilities for a funeral (I want to do a television documentary on them because I never met anyone perfect and sinless before)?
(3). Have they ever had a funeral service at their 432,000 foot facility for a heterosexual person that lived a life in any way that they didn’t want to “condone”?? (4). And just what would Jesus think of them spending all this money on a big mega church building? (Didn’t he use his money more compassionately to feed the poor, clothe the homeless, and take care of the widows and orphans)???
Shame on these fundamentalist fruitcakes in my own hometown of Arlington for canceling a funeral on the day before it was scheduled because of their hatred….not a very Christ like thing to do in my book! Join me in sending them an email telling them how you feel at: churchunusual.com Click on the “contact us” link.
Dave thanks, I linked the AP piece. – BD:^)
No, but I was with Gary and his family this weekend. I know Gary’s heart to be true and tried with Christ. Do not lay judgement or encourage others to if you do not have all of your facts straight. This incident grieved Gary as it did most Christians. I do not know what was in this man’s heart. You don’t have to judge someone to see the fruits of their spirit. This was not issue of homosexuality and Gary condemning this funeral service based on just that. The family withheld that this man(who was not a member of the church) was gay. The family wanted to have a video played in the house of God that openly displayed homosexuality. Can you imagine what Jesus would think if this took place. Gary simply could condone this. It would go against every grain of his being.
With regard to what I would find inappropriate if I had seen the video and knowing what I know is with 2 men kissing. Gary did the right thing.
Elaine:
It is your belief and the church’s that homosexuality is wrong, and you said that the funeral was cancelled because of the video that was made for Mr. Sinclair openly displayed homosexuality. Let me ask you, why was a compromise not made to remove any potentially offensive or unwanted material from this video before cancelling the funeral? And maybe you can answer my question from my posting above. Where does this church draw the line on holding funerals for sinners? We all sin. ALL OF US. Can you tell me that High Point has never approved of a funeral service for a person who had sinned and not repented or turned away from it? Really, I would like to know. Can you tell me for a fact that High Point has never played a video tribute to someone’s life that displayed some sort of sin? Also, if this incident grieved Gary as you say, then why did he have no contact with Mr. Sinclair’s family, partner, or friends? Or did he? Also, you say you did not know what was in this man’s heart. How do you know he wasn’t repenting and asking for forgiveness for his lifestyle? How do you know he wasn’t trying to turn away from sin? None of us do. Only Mr. Sinclair knows the answer to that question, which means the church made a judgement on him, unjustifiably. I appreciate your statement about praying for “all of you”, but I would respectfully suggest you pray for yourself, and ask God to allow you to see all possibilities to this scenario.
We can not move forward in peace and love if we are closed-minded.
Elaine:
You list your last name as Simons and your IP traces to Corpus Christi Texas.
I will certainly not release your email addy, but to clarify for readers it is listed to another Simons in Texas.
I am also not going to disturb your privacy by emailing you to confirm your identity.
I’ll take you at your word and you are under no obligation to answer any questions.
If you’ve been asked to go online and do damage control for Arlington High Point Church, then please do so, BDBO is a safe place for you to speak freely.
1) Are you related to Gary Simons of Arlington High Point Church?
2) You say you spent the weekend with Gary Simons and his family. You state Gary Simons is grieved.
Grieved about what?
He spoke to media, he gave his position. It has been rebutted and facts publicly challenged by Cecil’s mother, Cecil’s sister, some people involved in the memorial and Cecil Sinclair’s partner Paul Wagner. That is a normal back and forth in media.
Would you explain what you mean by ‘grieved’?
3) You state – “the family withheld that this man (who was not a member of the church) was gay.”
Jeff Sinclair, Cecil’s brother worked for High Point Church as a janitor.Â
I have not said other family members attended Arlington High Point Church, I’ve been clear they did not.
Many of the family are Church of Christ, but not all.
It was stated in media sources your church has been praying for Cecil’s heart condition for six years.
It has also been stated that church member(s) were introduced to Paul Wagner and they knew he was Cecil Sinclair’s partner.
a) Who at High Point Church didn’t know?
b) Who should have known what Gary Simon’s position was regarding the memorializing or burying of homosexuals?
c) Who was responsible to inform the family the service could not be held because their son, brother and partner was gay?
d) What happened between Monday and Wednesday night from the perspective of High Point Church staff?
e) Who told the family the memorial was cancelled? What is their position in the church?
f) How many are on your ministry staff?
4) You state: “The family wanted to have a video played in the house of God that openly displayed homosexuality.”
You also said you didn’t see the video.
Would you tell me what was in that video or what you heard was in that video that openly displayed homosexuality?
Who did you hear from? Your statement is not a statement of fact. Please explain.
Bear with me Elaine, we are coming from different cultures. I don’t know what openly displaying homosexuality means in Texas. Gary Simons statement to the Dallas Morning News is: “Some of those photos had very strong homosexual images of kissing and hugging”
Gary Simons statement to AP is:Â “pictures of men engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing.”
That sounds like a sports team after a win, or a greeting at most airports and gatherings in the world.:^)
5) Do you attend Arlington High Point Church?
6) Can you provide a statement of policy regarding burial or memorializing of people who are excluded by church policy?
(There is nothing on the church website)
7) Did Gary Simons see the video before he made his statement to Dallas Morning News?
Did Gary Simons see the video before he made his statement to Angela K. Brown of Associated Press?
Has Gary Simons seen the video?
Do you know how many funeral or memorial services Arlington High Point Church has refused?
Are you able to find out?
9) You state: “I know Gary’s heart to be true and tried with Christ. Do not lay judgement or encourage others to if you do not have all of your facts straight.”
That’s fair. Readers are adults, I treat them as adults, they treat me as an adult. I do not accept your premise encouraging readers to think like adults is judgmental or wrong. You are free to express your thoughts, feelings, opinions and facts.
What facts do I not have straight?
What facts do you see missing?
This is your opportunity correct errors made here at BDBO. If I have posted factual errors, show me and I will correct those errors.
10) You state: “This was not issue of homosexuality and Gary condemning this funeral service based on just that.”
I’m sorry I thought it was a memorial service being requested for Cecil Sinclair and not a funeral service.
Which was it?
(In Canada a memorial service does not involve the body and burial) Would you be kind enough to clarify what you mean? I’m seeing a conflict. The family was asked to withdraw  because Cecil was homosexual. How do your two statements mesh?
11) When church leadership informed the family the service could not be held, there was more than one reason given. Can you explain how that happened and why?
You said, “Do not lay judgement or encourage others to if you do not have all of your facts straight.” I agree with, and I want to thank you for acknowledging you do not know the state of Cecil Sinclair’s soul.
I accept you would be uncomfortable seeing a picture of two men kissing.Â
There is no information two men kissing was on that video.
I’ve asked you a lot of questions – you have an opportunity to step forward and be heard if you’d like to be.
Anything else you’d like to add?
I think it is safe to say that our “theological” positions are very different and we can go back and forth for along time about that. I actually enjoy engaging with someone on that level. where true dialogue is occuring. I think that my issue is whith the deamonizing of a church for taking a stance they felt needed to be taken. I had a conversation with my pastor this morning regarding this and he too agreed that we would not have ( and we have not) turned anyone away from our church because they aren’t a member or they are” sinners” . We recently held a funeral for a young man who was killied during a drug transaction. His family is not nor have they made any move toward becoming ma part of our congregation. But we felt a need to minister to them during their time of sorrow. The other thing my pastor and I agreed on was that had we been put in the position where we felt that we would celebrate something that we felt was against God word then we too would have passed on it. Several of the articles that I read indicated that There were people who are very polarizing as far as the gay agenda is concerned, who were expecting to play a significant role in the funeral. Again I think it was appropriate for the church to bow out rather than to “force” the family to compromise and celebrate their loved ones life in a manner that they didnt agree with. Again I do not look upon his family with anything but compassion and completely understand their feelings of anger and frustration. I think this is an eye opener for many churches to look at the manner in which they offer their church to people outside the church to prevent this from happening. I hope you can belive the person who posted that said Pastor Simmons grieved making that decision because I believe that in that same situation I too would grive but feel compelled to take a stand for what I tought was right. As much as some may want to believe that We are monsters for taking that stance , we truly hurt and feel for people we dont think someone in sin isnt worth our love or compassion, We think they are so valuable that we are willing to even offend and be unpopular to declare Gods plan for them.
John:
I am sorely grieved by the series of events that took place around Cecil Howard Sinclair’s memorial, frustrated and depressed by Gary Simons statements and the behavior of Arlington High Point Church leadership. I’m not interested in demonizing anyone.
My family went through a difficult time when a family member on an out of country trip (a reward for full scholarship to university) died suddenly of a contagious disease.
Our family had to take the story national to get the attention of the qualified and well placed staff in the Department of Foreign Affairs so they would network effectively and do their job.
One of the good samaritans was the foreign funeral director who risked his job and his own health, used what little money he had to scrounge for plexiglass, lead, and a nightgown for her body. He literally risked jail in his efforts to meet the standards our government required for the coffin to meet the shipping standards.
He did what he did because he knew her mother would need to see her daughter. He cut a hole in the coffin, inserted the plexiglass and sealed it to Canadian standards. He did so selfishly, with out any idea he would be reimbursed or that the body would get shipped. His faithfulness, professionalism and respect helped shame our government into assisting in getting her body home for burial.
When I read what Cecil Sinclair’s family and friends have been put through I am saddened. This was avoidable.
I have read nothing that changes my opinion of Gary Simons words and behavior. Gary Simons chose what to say to media and is merely dealing with the realities of going public.
He is not a victim.
I am not optimistic Elaine Simons will be permitted to ask or answer the questions posed to her in this comment thread.
To ask these questions of Gary Simons or church staff;
(some won’t fit her frame) especially if Gary Simons or leadership actually answered her honestly – would put her in a painful state of cognitive dissonance.
Given the control issues Simons has demonstrated, Elaine could be shamed, berated and disciplined if she deviates from an approved script.
I wonder if she is a member of the Simons family or a church volunteer or staff member using a family email. I wonder if she has been been told to go online to do damage control.
For someone who says she spent the weekend with Gary Simons and his family; she seems unaware of speculation, facts, valid disagreement, counterpoint, and I find myself feeling badly for her. No one here wants to see her harmed for failing to do fulfil an obligation (or demand) to try to make Gary Simons look good.
I have appreciated you comments; theological, cultural differences and disagreements aside we found common ground. I’ve enjoyed your candor.
I have just read about your very un-Christian behavior in not holding a funeral for a vet who served this country because you were judging him. That is for God to do. Not you. Shame on you.
You hurt all Christians. You hurt his family. You hurt his friends. You hurt everyone who loved that man. And you hurt God because you are so caught up in your petty judgements that you were unable to love God’s children. Jesus would never do that. God would never do that. Only small minded demi-gods would assume they have the right to do that.
Hello there again. Just for clarification purposes my last name is Simons not Simon. The same is true for Gary. I have seen his name improperly spelled throughout this blog. I did not come on here to do damage control for Highpoint. My family is related to the Gary Simon’s family. You ask what Gary and his church could be grieved at? Well, look at the situation. This would grieve any Christian. I am not a member or staffmember of this church so I do not know all of the facts regarding this. I do know that Gary Simons is a Christian leader who makes decisions based on Biblical principle. Gary Simon’s knew his own position regarding memorializing a homosexual on videotape in the Lord’s house. This is common sense. I am sure one of Gary’s assistants told the family that this could not take place. Most pastor’s have assistants to help them with communication of what is taking place in the church(ie memorials). I do not know how many people are on the ministry staff as again I am not a member of this church. Now come on. There is quite a difference between a sports team hug and kiss and a homosexual hug and kiss. This must have been very clear to Gary and his staff or there wouldn’t have been such a ruckus over this. You cannot expect there to be a celebration of life of 2 homosexual men openly displaying kissing and hugging in the house of the Lord. This would not be a celebration in the eyes of the Lord. This would be a sad day if that did happen. And I am not talking about a funeral service, I am talking about a memorial service of two men being memoralized on video in God’s home. And it shouldn’t matter of what the family thought was on the video and what the church thought. God knew what the video portrayed no matter what was edited out. And Gary knew that God knew what would be on that video and what it represented. This simply could not be played or memorialized in the Lord’s house. Gary and his church did a lot for this man and his family. He fed 100 of their family members. They made a video for them. And yes some parts were edited out. And there was prayer. Let us stop trying to analyze this to death and pray for all of them. The family, Paul Wagner, Gary Simons and his ministry. If somebody was wrong they will be convicted of it by God. I do know that Gary felt very confident in his decision. And he receives his confidence through God. Know that to be true. Have a blessed day.
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Well, goodness me, goodness me… look what I started…
Thank you for the compliment BD. I must say, when I first received the email at 11 p.m. Wednesday, I just sat there in shock for the first few minutes. Then I got really really REALLY mad… and I decided that somebody needed to do something. First I sent an email to pretty much every email address listed on the church website. I tried to guess the pastor’s address too, but it’s hidden from the common folk of course
Here was one of my favorite parts:
“For required reading, you might try pretty much every one of the Hebrew prophets, and then try reading Jesus’ parables about compassion and the sheep and goats. It’s hard to imagine how you could be more of a goat. I don’t know, maybe if you gather pregnant teenagers in a circle and threw rocks, that might qualify. Or if you poisoned the homeless in your soup kitchen, maybe.”
Can you tell I was a bit steamed, lol?
So as I started to calm down a little, I decided that this didn’t need to be hidden away. I felt that the behavior of this “church” was not only absolutely disgraceful and disgusting, but also immoral and sinful. In fact, there is a wonderful comment on the Dallas religion blog that says in essence that since the sin of Sodom was inhospitality, this church is operated by sodomites!
As a whole, I think the church has ceded its prophetic voice. If you read the Scriptures, the overwhelming theme of the prophets is a call against injustice, in whatever form it may take. We should be raising our voices every single time we see people acting in ways that are unjust, immoral, and for that matter, plain evil. Those who twist God’s Word of Love and Life into a word of hate and death should be held up for ridicule and shame. They are afraid of the “Gay Agenda”, just wait until they see the CHRISTian Agenda.
Finally, I just can’t resist responding to a couple of the comments:
I would love to see Elaine (or anyone else from Low Point) answer your questions, particularly about the video since the Dallas Morning News has reviewed the photos and refuted that particular claim.
And John, I find it beyond ironic that you use the story of the rich young man to support this church! Let’s think about that one for a minute shall we? (Pause…. hearty horse laugh) As for what Jesus would do in such a situation, well he did heal the centurion’s lover didn’t he?
Blessings to all, and thank you so much for not letting this sin go unnoticed!
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Elaine:
You say “This incident grieved Gary…” but I have to point out that the statements below made by Mr. Simons seem to make light of this situation and show no compassion for Mr. Sinclair’s family. This was taken from many different stories on this topic (including http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=22334):
“According to the Dallas Morning News, which posted the story today, Simons quipped, “With all the negative e-mail we are receiving right now, it seems that the homosexual community, God bless them all, are very organized.”
Simons also made reference to himself and his church gaining a newfound notoriety in the blogosphere, saying, “Before, when you type in ’Gary Simons’ and ’High Point Church’ in a Google search, you know, you could find us.
“But now,” continued Simons, who began High Point Church with a following of 16 people in his living room and now presides over a large congregation in Arlington, Texas, “you really could find us.”"
Why would this greiving man of God even attempt to turn this matter into a lighthearted comedy routine? Please, for the love of humankind, someone explain this to me.
I think this was a horribble thing to do. Paster Judge not as the good book says. Your building was offered up for a cellibration of a mans life. This was ur duty to him to give him a service he deserved. this is why you have a building not a church. To deny him that makes you no better than the rest of the hatemungers in your Building. So think abbout this would God or Jesus have turned him away I think not only man has that hateful ability. So I guess you are just that a hateful man who teaches his building to hate others too. You should be ashamed to show your face. You haven’t learned to preach Gods word But to only taint it with your lame exscuses. And as for the rest of your Building . I say this to them. He who is sinfree cast the first stone. Remember Paster hate, God is the one to Judge people not Man. You must not sleep well at night I know I wouldn’t if I judge the way U and your building do. I bet they don’t either. What U have done is mearly showed how Biggetted you spread the good book. Shame on U, But unlike U I will pray that God forgives you and your Building for the wrongful things U have taught them. God Loves All His Children Not Just The One People Think He Should.
Shame, Shame on U
Scott Watson
Angelsong, Thank you for clearly exemplifying the reason for Highpoint’ s decison. Your arrogance and disrespect of their position and your flagrant perversion of scripture is obvious and I doubt that you would pass on the opportunity to vomit that in the face of those who dont believe as you. I guarantee you that I would not allow someone like you any opportunity to in any way appear that I or my church support what you promote. While there has been reasonable discussion on this site you take it to a dispicable low with your tone. I am sure that it is nasty toned individuals like yourself that Highpoint was concerned about. Yes, The reality is that You choose to interpret the Word in a way that suits you avoiding any conviction. Que sera, sera.. To imply that Jesus would accept Lust( because like pedophelia that is all homosexualism is) is ridiculous. If there was nothing wrong with mans desire then why would he sacrifice himself for all of us. Jesus says ” I stand at the door and Knock” It is your decision if you will live for your self and your gratification or live for him.And the point with the rich ruler…Well angel… you cant spin it to argue that Jesus “compromised” with him can you? And as for the centurion…I am curious what Bible you are reading? Obviously your lust colors what you read. Argue all you want but God created WOMAN for MAN. Intimacy was intended to enhance their relationship. Clearly he says ” MAN shall leave his mother and father and shall cleave to his WIFE and they shall become one flesh. He didnt say cleave to WHOMEVER he desires. Spin and twist it as much as you want Lust is the result of the perversion of intimacy the way God intended and that too is recorded throughout the Bible. No one is denying that you have every right to engage in homosexual sex. But dont say thet God intended it that way. By the way sodoms sin was not “inhospitality” it was self absorption (idolatry),lust ,I can do whatever i want attitude and disregarding Gods Righteousnes.Sin is powerful! So much so that Lots Wife couldt walk away from it without looking back as I am sure many caught up in lust like you and even some in the church cannot. Simply sinning is not a fatal flaw . King David sinned repeatedly yet God called him ” a man after my own heart.” Why , well read Psalms 51 and see the repentance and the cry of Davids heart. No , angel not everyone in the church is perfect by most of us seek Gods heart even when we screw up. Saul , who David replaced sought to JUSTIFY his sin and appease God. Like you he compared himself to those around him and though..but I cant be as bad as THEM so I must be OK. Paul said ” I am not ashamed of the Gospel” and went on to die for it. He wasnt very popular amongst ” pop culter ” of the time. And idont think God calls us to be either. The end of the book of Judges reflects Gods heart towards the rebelion of man…even in the case his own people….it says…And there was no king in Israel, and every man did as he saw fit in his own heart. THAT Grieves God.
Hi Elaine:
Glad you came back and glad you have your own mind.
Good to know I was wrong about your motives.
Every time I used Gary’s name or yours in these three posts I made a typo. It is rude and sloppy to spell someone’s name wrong. It’s disrespectful. I am sorry. I corrected my errors, if you find any more, please speak up, I’ll give you your name back right away.:^)
Thank you for trying to humanize Gary Simons and his staff.
I asked you where your ‘ick’ factor was for a memorial video of a man’s life.
Then I wondered what you’d say here if there was no ‘ick’ factor on the Sinclair family video.
Then I realized it wouldn’t matter.
I honestly don’t know what you think and believe.
I’m hearing you say a family is just as ‘ick’ as your ick point. I’m hearing you say you see ‘homosexual’ and you see ick.
By extension everyone in Cecil’s life has to be shunned. They can’t enter the House of God. That’s what you said.
The truth isn’t important here. Even if you saw that video with your own eyes and the ‘ick’ factor wasn’t there for you, Cecil Sinclair, his family and friends can’t enter the House of God.
Am I hearing you correctly?
You don’t want to argue.
Cool. Neither do I.
I like what John said, we may disagree on rating other peoples sins, but Love has to trump our ‘ick.’ He gave an excellent example.
What does ‘homosexuality is wrong’ mean to you?
You said ‘it’s in the bible it’s wrong.’
I don’t know what that means to you.
Priddy!
Thank you for the link. I don’t have a MySpace account and can’t log in to say merci on your front porch.:^)
That was kind of you, thanks.
I see Bill is taking your questions seriously on one of the three discussions going on.
He disagrees on my assessment of Gary Simons leadership style.
“I keep hearing the word “controlâ€. I find that accusation to be hypocritical.”
I hope he does get back to you. Meantime…
“Why would this greiving man of God even attempt to turn this matter into a lighthearted comedy routine?”
I haven’t been shy about my opinion. http://www.benedictionblogson.com/?p=3333
Please if you can and want to, answer your own question here. I’d like to know what you think and how you are seeing this behavior.
It’s a very good question.
If Elaine wants to engage you in discussion, I hope she knows she is welcome to.
Good grief, talk about completely missing the point (rich man parable). And there are stories where Jesus “argued” with someone and subsequently changed his mind.
As for the centurion, analysis of the text along with historical studies of that period suggest strongly that this was no mere “servant”. It was common for Roman soldiers who were occupying a territory to take a young male “companion” along with them into that territory instead of a wife. The fact that this centurion loved his servant enough to seek out a Jewish religious leader strongly suggests that the love he felt was more than that just for a slave. Is there absolute proof of either interpretation? No, not unless you have a time machine. The Scripture does not overtly support either interpretation, and the interpretation I cite has much stronger historical and cultural evidence to support it.
By the way, there is also the story of Philip and the “eunuch”, who not only was a eunuch, but who without question was homosexual in orientation. It is an undeniable fact (if you study Ethiopian history) that eunuchs who served the queen in high positions (such as he) not only were castrated, they had to have no sexual interest in females at all (otherwise they might still try to have sex with the queen). Again, does the Scripture overtly say that this was a homosexual eunuch? Of course not, but once again, people speak out from the margins and can’t be hidden.
As for the matter at hand, you’re exactly right that I am going to speak out against injustice, in whatever form it takes. And yes, I am fully aware that there are many churches who would have refused to hold the funeral at all. While that position is still against God’s command for justice and compassion for the “least of these”, there is something especially wrong with reneging on an offer less than 24 hours before the service. And not even being bold enough to tell the family why, but rather giving such pathetic excuses they would be laughable if they weren’t so disgustingly sad. And then telling lie after lie after lie to try and cover it up. You’re darn right I will speak out to expose that.
By the way, were you at the service? Have you ever heard the Turtle Creek Chorale sing? Have you ever been at a memorial service where the Chorale sang? I wish I hadn’t been to so many, but I have. And not only was there no orgy or pornographic pictures displayed and passed around, there was no overt commentary or celebration of someone’s sexuality. The very idea is ludicrous! Do you celebrate someone’s heterosexuality in a funeral? Of course not! What you do is you have pictures of the departed, often with the spouse and or children, the family including the spouse is respectfully seated and honored with words of comfort, etc.
As for the self-serving comments made by Low Point on their website, the idea that there were photographs where men had their hands on each other’s genitals is offensive and disgusting. It has also been thoroughly debunked by the media, as the family has shared the photos with any media outlet who has asked for them. If the church did find such inappropriate photos as they claim, one has to wonder what they are still doing with them and why there were not returned to the family… As for the comments that were reported from the service, I’m sure the situation as it had unfolded was being completely ignored by those present. Or maybe in the face of such hatred and shameful behavior by the church, Cecil’s friends and family found it necessary to express their love of every part of his life, including the part that had been so reviled by the “church”?
Finally, if you want to discuss Bible interpretation, have at it. In my years at seminary, I learned both Greek and Hebrew and did in-depth study and analysis of Scripture, including all the so-called “clobber” texts. I assure you I can hold my own and then some.
Blessings!
1 Corinthians 5:9
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Okay Elaine, now can you explain how a loving, committed, covenantal relationship is sexually immoral?
Bene Diction (and all):
How did you know I have a myspace account? Creepy.
My myspace blogs on this topic are much less tactful than here. I am trying to be as respectful as I can to everyone. But I digress…
When I read that Pastor (?) Simons “quipped” to his congregation during his sermon on Sunday, I literally shouted “WHAT?!?!” out loud, in an empty house, out of disbelief. A quip is a clever or witty remark or comment, and/or a cutting jest. It is synonymous with the words insult, jest, joke, mockery, and wisecrack, to name a few. I know that “quipped” was the reporter’s word, but with the words that followed (the quote from Gary’s sermon), I believe that Gary’s tone was in lighthearted jest. The words he said would be hard to misconstrue.
BD, you asked me to attempt to answer my own question about why Gary would want to turn this into a lighthearted comedy routine. I can’t imagine why a man of God(?) would act in a hurtful way to anyone. I wish Elaine or someone with some true first-hand insight could answer this. I still sit here in disbelief as to why someone would make any form of joking remarks about any aspect of this situation while it involves people grieving. Mr. Sinclair’s family no doubt had to read about these remarks in the news or online. I’m getting to the point on this blog where I am reading so many responses that have no merit that I am becoming more angry that people actually think this way. Some people “defending” the church are not proving to me where Gary was right, other than in that he has the right to do what he wants. Oh, Gary had the right and the freedom (which Mr. Sinclair helped indirectly to protect) to say no to the family, to make fun of the gay community, to jest with his congregation, and to generally do whatever he wishes. I agree with all that. If he felt his church’s beliefs were compromised, fine, abort the pending memorial, but the way he/his people went about it was soulless. And the way he acted afterward was even worse. It would not have been at all difficult for him to defend his actions without hurting the gay community and Mr. Sinclair’s loved ones. There is NO excuse for that, and if anyone wishes to challenge me on that point, bring it on. We as compassionate human beings can disapprove of one another’s actions or ways of life without demeaning them or making fun of them. Morals are a funny thing. We are all tested sooner or later against our beliefs, and it is Gary’s God’s place to judge his actions. I simply ask my questions in an attempt to understand people better.
BD:
Nevermind…I said earlier that I have a myspace. Haha.
**losing my mind at the ripe old age of 30**
Angelsong,
Paul identified three kinds of sexually immoral persons: adulterers, male prostitutes, and males who practiced homosexuality. In Romans he added the category of females who practiced homosexuality. I didn’t define it; one of Jesus’s disciples did.
First of all, Paul was not one of the disciples in most translations of the Bible at least. Secondly, the verses you are referencing, which mistranslated in some versions, actually refer to pederasty, not homosexuality if you study the actual Greek.
Elaine:
Since you are related to and know personally the family, I would love it if you could answer my post from above (#26). I am not attacking anyone on this blog, but trying to understand and clarify these issues in my own mind. I understand you may not be acting as a representative of Gary or the church, but of your own beliefs, and anything above and beyond that would be an informational bonus.
Please and thank you.
Priddy
“According to the Dallas Morning News, which posted the story today, Simons quipped, “With all the negative e-mail we are receiving right now, it seems that the homosexual community, God bless them all, are very organized.â€
What negativity is in this statement? It’s just that a statement. I am sure Gary has been getting a lot of negative emails from the homosexual community. And Gary is sincere when he says God bless them all. Gary doesn’t hate homosexual men. He does not approve of that lifestyle and would love to see these men repent and not give into the evil desires of homosexuality.
If you knew Gary Simons personally you would know that he is sincere and would never hurt anyone who is grieving the loss of a loved one.
Simons also made reference to himself and his church gaining a newfound notoriety in the blogosphere, saying, “Before, when you type in ’Gary Simons’ and ’High Point Church’ in a Google search, you know, you could find us.
“But now,†continued Simons, who began High Point Church with a following of 16 people in his living room and now presides over a large congregation in Arlington, Texas, “you really could find us.—
Well, he was again stating the facts. I am sure that he is gaining newfound notoriety in the blogosphere. What is wrong with this? That isn’t the only statements he made regarding this subject to his congregation. He is turning a negative into a positive. This notieriety will no doubt lead someone who didn’t know the Lord into his church. This is what Gary Simons is about. Believe me when I say this.
Elaine:
Maybe you misread. I didn’t call it negative behavior (although I do believe it was). The news article did. I posed the question that if he was truly grieving for the family, why did he make light of the situation? When the article used the word “quipped”, it led me and I’m sure others to believe this comment was made in jest and/or a comedic manner.
Also, maybe it was just a statement that he “quipped”, but even if you take his exact quote and add a sincere tone of voice, it seems like a snide remark. Was the gay community not organized before? That comment seems to allude to nothing but a jab at homosexuals. Also, there are more than just gay individuals who are emailing his church. I know this for a fact.
Additionally, if his tone was indeed sincere, should that columnist not post a correction to the story?
It also seems to me that taking his words for what they are, ie speaking more about the press than about the grief he was suffering over this man’s family’s tragedy, seemed shallow. Maybe you can help me understand. This shouldn’t be a time for him to comment on his gain (of notariety), but of the loss of Cecil Sinclair. You say “Believe me when I say this” regarding Gary’s kind heart, but I truly find it hard to believe when I string all of the events, as reported, together.
As I stated in post #34 “It would not have been at all difficult for him to defend his actions without hurting the gay community and Mr. Sinclair’s loved ones.” If you were a member of Cecil’s family, wouldn’t you be hurt if you read these quotes and about the manner in which they were spoken?
First of all I’m sorry for the Sinclair’s loss. Regardless the family loved this person unconditionally which is not always the case. Next I’d like to comment on Pastor Gary & what he did. He did what he thought was right for the church body as a whole. He has nothing but the best for the congregation in mind. Pastor gary is a man of God & follows the Bible to the best of his ability. The Bible does clearly state about homosexuality along with several other sins. It also states if you have been saved & reborn again you are to turn away from that sin & sin no more. You should not be bashing christians as a whole. You have no right to do that. After all of the readings here there is not one christian on here that proclaims to be perfect. As far as tithing goes that to is in the Bible & it is ALL from the Word of God. I suggest if you have a problem with Pastor Gary or any other Christian that you take it up with God. The people that are gay & that attend HPC, know Pastors beliefs on that. He reads strictly from the Bible & is a God fearing man. The people that go there or to another non-denominational church goes to hear Gods Word. They have to deal with the Holy Spirit, not you nor myself. Gary Simons is NOT gay & he is Not an Osteen. He is Pastor Simons & he loves people & he is off the pulpit as he is on…a kind, passionate, God loving man. His values are out of this world & what he instills in his children is something that I wish had been instilled in me as a kid. Gary & his wife love the church & the people as a whole & it shows. I stand behind Pastors decision, not because of Mr. Sinclair’s sexual preference, but because of what God says about it. God uses him in a mighty way & I think before you judge him you should go to HPC & see for yourself…that is if you’re not scared. Who knows you may turn away from your sin & get reborn again!!!!
This all is clearly just another attack from satan!!
JFK: Take a deep breath. You are commenting on a blog in Canada.
That’s nice you support your pastor, I’m sure he appreciates you.
If you are not familar with the differences between judging and criticism, personhood and action, then we have nothing to say to each other. If you don’t understand what being a Berean is, we can’t talk.  If you aren’t able to distinguish biblically the different kinds of criticism, judgement, accountability and discernment, we can’t talk. BD
As others have pointed out, it is extremely doubtful that most of the emails the church is receiving are from the “homosexual community”. Actually, there is widespread condemnation of these actions from pretty much every sector, gay, straight, Christian, atheist, Jewish even, military, you name it.
JFK:
Who on here is bashing Christians as a whole? These are your words. That’s great that you support his decisions. That’s your right. But it does not mean that those if us who disagree with Gary’s choices are collectively Christian-bashing. As far as taking up our problems with Pastor Gary up with God, do we not have the right to have discussions about world events? I’m not about to stand at the gates of heaven or whatever the heck happens when I die and talk to God about Pastor Gary’s choices. I believe we are put here to learn from one another. I hope you will reanalyze this discussion with an open mind.
You say “Gary & his wife love the church & the people as a whole & it shows.” What about his actions before and after Cecil’s memorial show love for Cecil’s family?
You also say “This all is clearly just another attack from satan!!” This is not a statement from a person attempting to have an educated conversation about a controversial topic. Take BD’s advice. Take a deep breath and relax.
BD: Well said.
I am so glad that there is still a church today actually taking a stand against the perversion that is running wild in our world. There needs to be a line drawn. We can pray for the homosexual and have them in our pews in hopes that they repent, but showing it in pictures on a video in the house of God as if homosexuality is okay, is not appropriate.
The people who have been offended need to realize that High Point can’t knowingly take on sin to please mere people. True Christians are working for the Lord Jesus Christ, not tickling the ears of sinners and telling them everything is okay. That would be like leading a blind man off of a cliff to his death.
Homosexuals are not “bad” people, they just need a touch from the Holy Spirit. And they should have known that a gathering for the deceased depicting his gay lifestyle wouldn’t be tolerated in a bible-beliving church.
To God be the Glory.
As a Bible scholar who has studied the Bible in great detail in both Greek and Hebrew, I get so tired of the constant claim that the Bible states anything “clearly” or “unambiguously” about homosexuality. To even suggest such is to demonstrate a complete lack of any in depth study of the text, as only a shallow, literalistic, completely uninformed reading could yield such a result. If you actually have Scripture that you can attempt to interpret with any exegesis at all, wonderful, I would love to discuss it with you. But blanket statements with no evidence at all that profess to speak for all Christianity are at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest.
Speaking of disingenuous and shallow reading, Lisa demonstrates complete ignorance about the so-called “video”. In fact, the one photograph that apparently was objectionable shows Cecil horsing around with his brother when he was 20 years old – over 20 years before he came out. I’m sure that most of us in the midst of the grief of planning an unexpected funeral would be much more careful about the photographs we handed over for a video, particularly when the video is obviously the most important part of the entire week.
Finally, again to Lisa, to suggest that “homosexuals” need a touch from the Holy Spirit is to disrespect and deny the living witness of thousands of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians whose lives are filled to overflowing with an abundance of the Gifts and Fruits of God’s Spirit. At best your comment is ignorant and uninformed, at worst it is blasphemous.
Oh, I almost forgot, as to your last comment about the service not being tolerated in a “Bible-believing” church, three different churches offered their facilities free of charge in response to the email I sent them for prayer, and if you read the blogs, you’ll find hundreds more who would have done the same.