3 Responses to “Ottawa Anglicans decide to bless unions”

1. 1 Mark Byron  on Oct 14th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

   While Rev. Sinclair’s comment may not be in full context, why would he assume Jesus said anything about homosexuality? Jesus didn’t.

   If you consider Jesus to be divine and part of a triune God, then Jesus was speaking when God came out against homosexual activity in the Old Testament, unless you have a copy of His dissenting opinion on the matter.

   The next comeback there is that there are lot of OT things we don’t do today, like stoning adulterers or folks who dis their parents. However, Paul echoed those OT reservations against homosexual behavior in his epistles. If you saw were Jesus took Paul to task for those homophobic comments, let me know.

2. 2 Bene Diction  on Oct 14th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

   What Jesus has or will chose to take Paul to ‘task on’ is between Jesus and Paul.

   Paul was/is/will be (need to step out of time here) probably welcomed into eternity with ‘well done, good and faithful servant.’
   When he stands at judgement, Jesus will step forward and say Paul’s name is in the book of life, he is forgiven and his record is clean.

   I’ve seen His grace and mercy and patience and love in you many times over and I thank God the Father, through his Son by the prompting of the Holy Spirit for you.:^)

   Jesus Christ - fully God and fully man entering into space and time said nothing about homosexuality.
   I understand you saying that arguments from silence are not conclusive. Jesus said nothing.

   Paul did.
   So did a few law verses in the OT.
   I assume you are referring to the Holiness code.
   I shall have to dust off a couple of books here, but thanks for letting me give this a try.

   Paul:

   Romans 1: 26 the theology of justification written in a Jewish mindset to  new communities of people surrounded by a pagan (gentile) society written in present continuous tense about ritual prostitution.
   Paul deals with vices written in the common two parts 1) sensual 2) anti social.
   Other writers at the time were just as pessimistic about rampant sensuality and moral decay, but is Paul placing all his pessimism on one form of it? No. The young churches he so fiercely writes to were a breath of fresh air and far more holistic than what was known around them.
   In referring to sexual acts ” para phusin” Paul uses the meaning ‘in excess of’ or ‘more than’ as opposed to the more common ‘against’.
   Like St John Chrysostom the understanding of ‘going against your own nature’ was being directed at heterosexuals. The understanding of homosexual does not have meaning or awareness in that culture we have today. Paul is speaking out against sexual exploitation and the cultish use of sexuality in other religions and the society his young churches found themselves in.

   1 Cor: 6: 9-10
   One of Paul’s list of vices in no particular sequence. He is deeply concerned about purity. physical, spiritual, relational, social.
   There was a case of sexual wrong doing in the church that wound up in secular courts. A heterosexual case btw.
   Paul uses a compound noun, arsenokoitos.
   Whole chapters have been written on this. Most scholars agree that if he is referring to homosexual behavior he is using Jewish rabbinical language to probably talk about the abuse of power (altering the body - effeminacy) and what a Jewish man would see as denial of the God given body in Greek prostitution practises.

   This is not a discussion that is easy to put into a comment section. These verses weren’t added until the 12th century. Again, most scholars agree Paul was railing against pagan temple sexual exploitation of slaves and young boys.
   Seneca and Plutarch (secular writers) were also doing so.

   1 Tim: 1:9-10

   Have you read this in Phillips translation?
   Paul is not happy with the gnostic teachers who are intimidating Timothy and goes after them with his wonderful intellectual Jewish wrath, which in spite of his cultural contexts held tight to the new covenant - the law of Love.
   Again Paul uses one of his lists to point out the real meaning of the law so Timothy has a defense against gnosticism and bullying.
   He is using the last half of the 10 commandments in their gross and strong form. (sins against others)
   Three greek meanings are important.
   pornois, arsenokoitai, andrapodistes
   male prostitute, abuse of slaves/the young for money, altering their bodies and appearance for your pleasure, kidnapper/slave dealer

   We’d understand it perhaps using modern terms such as sexual tourism, sexual slavery - those who promote, use, abuse.

   The infamous clobber verses have to be put in context - culturally, historically and conventantly.

   Because we fill books and airways and servers with our words on sexuality does not negate Jesus choice to not speak specifically about homosexuality.

   I don’t think people that are biblically illiterate need a media quote from an Anglican minister seeming to indicate otherwise.

   My point is simple.
   If this is the full quote from Rev. Sinclair (big if) then I will speak.

   I don’t think most Christians are saying they are smarter than Jesus.
   You aren’t.
   I’m not.

   “We are saying Jesus was wrong and we are right.”
   That is not what is being said.
   That seems to be what Rev. Sinclair is hearing.
   If Rev. Sinclair has more to add and happens to stumble on this post he is most welcome to make his case.

   At least potential Anglicans in Ottawa clicking though might have an opportunity to carefully weigh their choice of church.

   I had a discussion last week with someone who said, “you mean there are evangelical Christians that don’t believe being gay or lesbian is a sin?”
   I damn near put my head down and wept.

   Your turn if you’d like.
   Take Peter and Jude, put them in context for me.
   Take the Holiness code if you’d like. I’m not a theologian or an academic and I have a lot to learn.

1. 1 Montreal Anglican vote on same sex blessings at Bene Diction Blogs On Pingback on Oct 20th, 2007 at 1:10 am