A North Carolina Church knew the SBC would rule they were no longer in friendly co-operation. It’s a nice way of saying ‘we don’t need your kind round here.’
Myers Park Baptist Church’s sin?
They affirm GLBT - (welcome them)
This letter from the minister of the church is really something.
Senior Minister Rev. Dr. H. Stephen Shoemaker
Myers Park Baptist Church
November 12, 2007Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I appeal to you by the mercies of God to refrain from removing churches like ours from your fellowship. Christian fellowship is too divided as it is and is a scandal to Christ who prayed that we might be one.
I appeal to you as Baptists who treasure soul freedom, soul competency and the autonomy of the local church. These great Baptist principles argue on behalf of including those of minority witness and minority interpretation of scripture in its fellowship.
Our church studied the Bible, sought the Spirit of God and talked earnestly with each other for over 20 years to get to the place where we said we were “open to all and closed to none,” and fully welcomed gay and lesbian persons who wished to follow Jesus with us. We do not claim to have the whole mind of God, and we respect those whose interpretations of scripture differ. It is the spiritual freedom we offer one another.
I appeal to you as Biblical people led by the Living Spirit of God whose life is centered in Christ.
Jesus welcomed those considered outcasts and sinners by His culture and religion into the Kingdom of God drawing near. We seek — we hope — to live in His Spirit.
And we, like Peter in the Book of Acts, have overcome our original resistance to the inclusion of gay and lesbian persons as Peter overcame his resistance to accepting Gentiles into the people of God. He saw the Holy Spirit fall upon the Gentiles, he saw God working in their lives and said:
“If then God gave them the same gift that He gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could hinder God?”
We could base the unity of our fellowship on any number of issues of Biblical interpretation: speaking in tongues, war, abortion, death penalty, divorce, homosexuality, and on and on. Let us base our unity on Jesus Christ as Lord and his call to discipleship and on the competence and freedom of the individual to open scripture and interpret it for his or her life guided by the Spirit of God.
In Christ,
H. Stephen Shoemaker
I commend this church and her people and stand with them in their decision to ‘out’ themselves knowing they would be kicked out and cut off.
Hopefully other churches will follow suit across the US as they re-examine their priorities regarding ‘the other’ and will stand and pay the price to honour the kingdom of God.
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Well, I have no problems with homosexuals attending church but we should not do it in such a way that condones sinful behavior. The Apostle Paul and Christ were clear. Jesus, in standing with sinners and tax collectors, never condoned the sin of people in fact He said “Go and sin no more”. Does that show that Jesus recognized certain behavior as sin and even pointed it out? Should we as Christfollowers do the same? Didn’t the Apostle Paul addressed those churches and individuals who were promoting “false doctrine”? I would be on the side of this particular church if the statements in this exerpt would point out that they do not condone sinful behavior. It appears to me their acceptance of homosexuals seems to condone the sin or that they believe that the actions are not sin. Honouring the Kingdom of God should never include condoning sinful behavior. Jesus never condoned sin, not did any of the Apostles condoned sin. Did they meet and fully interacted with those who were sinful? absolutely but they never did it in such a way that it condoned or showed an appearance of condoning sinful behavior. Heck, 1 Cor 6 even states what God through Paul believe on this subject. Just some thoughts.
Again, I have no problem with homosexuals attending church. I have a big problem with churches accepting in such a way that it condones sin. God can change all people form sinful behavior. It seems strange to think that God couldn’t do the same for those who are homosexual.
God can change your behaviors DH.
You see GLBT as a behavioral disorder, ergo, people can chose to be changed into hetreosexual.
Years of solid data medical data on reparative therapy and history have acknowledged it as harmful.
This is not about sinful behavior, any more than your heterosexuality is.
Yes it IS about sinful behavior because heterosexual beahvior within the confines of marriage is not concidered sin in Scripture as opposed to homosexuality which is considered sin in 1 Cor 6, Romans 1 and vious other passages with regard to the subject. According to Scripture God can’t change my heterosexual behavior but people can change their behavior to be homosexual. Also, God can change homosexual behavior because it is sin. All sinful behavior can be overcome: “We overcome by the Word of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony.”
People can change and begin to sin but people who sin can change to not sin if their heart is not hard to the things of God. Can people in the attempt to change go back to their “fleashly desires”? yes but that doesn’t change the fact that it is sin not does it mean that it is impossible for them to change if they are willing to change. Christ has compassion on these issues “I desire that none parrish and that all come to repentence.” God knows that not all will come but it doesn’t change the fact that the message off Salvation is made to all people. It is just a matter of whether people will accept or reject the message.
So it is about sinful behavior because heterosexual behavior within the confines of a monogomous marriage is not sinful as opposed to homosexuality which is.
Medical people can be wrong. Medical people also can not look at all of the specific areas to see where change can be made. One also needs to look at the predispositions of the people doing the study.
I’m not sure if that’s DH’s case. One doesn’t have to become heterosexual in order to stop sinning; one merely has to not act upon their homosexual urges.
The problem is that, in orthodox Christian thought, there is no honorable outlet for homosexual urges. The heterosexual is asked to stay abstinent until marriage, while the homosexual is asked to stay abstinent, period.
The alcoholic may not lose his desire for booze, but may work at not acting upon those desires so to make sure bad things don’t happen to him. The single heterosexual will tend to lust after the opposite sex, but the devout one manages to not to give in to those desires while single. The person with homosexual desires will be in the boat of the alcoholic, avoiding giving in to their desires if they’re going to stick to conventional moral standards.
That’s a tough call for the person who just isn’t attracted to the opposite sex. It’s often easier to go to a church with more permissive standards than to try and go cold-turkey and stick with a more orthodox take.
Dear DH,
Even though I am heterosexual, if I had found the Baptist Church of my childhood to be a more loving and accepting place for all, I might still be a Baptist today.
BTW, God did not say, go and be Gentile no more!
Mark, I’m going to respectfully disagree with some of what you’ve said.
In my years of blogging I have never been as shaken and as overwhelmed as I was with the Dallas mega church posts - the church that turned away a family and a funeral. I received hundreds of emails, I had to reach out for help to strong, mature Christian activists in the US because this blog was flooded with pain.
It was stunning. I do advocacy work, I’ve never experienced anything like it.
I see you as looking at homosexuality as a disease model using addiction.
I think I understand you are attempting to clarify what DH is trying to address spiritually.
The fact I may disagree with DH’s spiritual stance does bother him to no end.
I understand honest belief, fear based belief, cultural belief, casual belief, inherited belief, and while I respect his position he knows he is not welcome to come over here and beat people over the head with his bible.
DH I commend you for for your restraint, you’ve come a long way.
We know there are bent hetrosexuals; people we acknowledge fall into what DH has aptly called sinful behavior. We know there is deviancy within a wide range of causations from willfulness to biological factors.
There is spiritual room for those facts.
The US is unique both facinated and repelled by sexuality, in a way few countries are.
Most western countries don’t have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy anymore.
Homosexuality is not a disease.
Being gay is not a sin.
Separating us into parts, spiritual, mental, flesh makes it easier for groups such as Exodus International to operate with impunity.
I also strongly disagree with the way DH and many evangelicals (innerancy) interpret sexuality in the bible.
DH mentioned Jesus and I let it slide.
Jesus didn’t talk about homosexuality as we know and understand it today.
He talked about the deeper human issues, relationship, faithfulness, honour, honesty, love.
He reserved his admonitions for the same people Paul did, those that promote the power imbalance of sexual slavery and degredation of human beings.
I do not see a committed homosexual relationship as sinful.
I do not see my GLBT friends as any more broken than I am.
They are not suffering a disease that needs a cure.
I suspect we disagree.
While historically European and western countries didn’t give GLBT relationships legal standing, they existed, and they existed within the church. They continue to exist.
What a terrible terrible thing we do when we insist GLBT stop being who they are.
We demand they live lies for our benefit that tear many into shreds. Both our countries are littered with broken believers. What a terrible thing we do when followers of Jesus Christ permit groups such as Exodus to continue to lie, to saturate the evangelical bubble with outrageous untruths. And those of us in the evangelical bubble don’t have the time, inclination, knowledge and courage to say stop.
Fortunately we live in cultures where GLBT and ex-gay people can speak.
This church decided it was time to stop feeding economic, political, spiritual and cultural deception.
Thank God there are churches such as Myers Park willing to listen and willing to speak.
I can deeply appreciate it took 20 years.
People that have come through Exodus International (spiritualized reparative therapy models) acknowledge there were some good things to have come out of their experience.
The core premises remains faulty and no amount of spiritualizing is going to change that reality.
Lies are still lies.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6813300738108451537&hl=en
Example:
Harrison Scott Key (WorldMagblog) rightly expressed his revulsion at the 2005 Iran hanging of two teenage boys who were supposedly homosexual.
Chalcedon Foundations latest issue has an article by Mark Rushdoony clarifying his fathers position from Institutes of Biblical Law regarding GLBT. He calls for no less.
I understand dominionism is an extremist branch of the religious right, but there is little outcry, no holding to account, the book is sold at conferences such as FRC Value Voters, bought and bought into by moderate evangelicals.
Wow. I’m pretty appalled about what I perceive as the absence of the Christian practice of love and tolerance in dh’s post. Why can’t you just love as Jesus told us to and leave the judging to God?
Their argument makes precisely the point Paul did in Galatians: “God has accepted them, how can we not do so?” It is a reading of the Scriptures in question that is far more in tune with the text than one that might repeat what Paul wrote, but ignore what he was doing when he wrote those things.
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/09/lifestyle-choice.html
http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2007/08/when-paul-gets-it-wrong.html
What disturbs me is not the tone in these comments, they are much more peaceful and loving than in other, less controversial blogs, but the standards issue.
There is a trend in the modern Southern Baptist Convention to reach out to the lost, whoever, where-ever, and of whatever persuasion. This is definitely a good trend, but it must be tempered by our statement of beliefs, the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. You will find that Baptists believe in the autonomy of the local church, within doctrinal limits and one of those limits is the inerrancy of Scripture. Bene, you scoff at this, but it is impossible to defend any moral position as absolute without this belief.
So, as Southern Baptists we defend the inerrancy of the Bible and as such hold homosexuality to be a depraved position outside of the will of God. Hopefully, any of our churches would be willing to allow homosexuals to attend, but we (ideally) do not offer communion to those living in sin, no matter what the nature of their sin.
If this church chose to move outside of our denomination’s established doctrines, then they chose to remove themselves from our fellowship (SB’s version of excommunication).
My prayers and best wishes for the Myers Park Baptist Church and its members, who uphold the best in their tradition; Y’all almost persuade me to come forward!
Follow Jesus.
Shadrach:
If I understand correctly, Canadian SBC subscribe to the 2000 US Baptist Faith & Message you mention.
http://www.ccsb.ca/national-ministries/our-constitution
I’m not familar with particular state or provincial SBC constitutions, and do I know anyone who has chosen SBC membership in real life, my SBC friends are online.
I understand there would be members of the convention who aren’t sorry to see Myers Park gone.
In Texas there is a kerfuffle at a place called Broadway Baptist Church.
I believe Baptists call this family dissent.;^)
It appears the congregation had determined to be moderate and affirming.
Things took a turn toward er, family dissent when it came time for the pictures for the church membership directory.
All of a sudden affirming didn’t look like the nuclear family.
(Shoemaker used to pastor this Texas church btw)
Never mind that some lovely looking nuclear families might be on their second dad or third mom.
Well, not to worry.
Baptist dissent to the fore!
So, some members voted with their pictures.
They determined that if G&L families couldn’t be pictured in the church directory then they didn’t need to be either.
I wonder how many people think this is a small thing?
http://www.thebigdaddyweave.com/2007/11/broadway-baptist-controversial-church.html
Addition: Timothy Kincaid has a far better post than what I’ve said here about Broadway’s directory.
Dr. McGrath:
I read Mel White’s Religion Gone Bad, I remain absolutely stunned by is his ability to forgive and his moral clarity in doing so.
Charlotte:
DH is a long time commenter from Kansas.
Trust me on this one, he has advanced his conversational skills from when he first began commenting here at BDBO and at a blog in Wales I participate in.
I forget how abrasive and abusive he comes across as.
That may be because I work too hard to not react, and I have done him the discourtesy and dishonour of tuning him out.
DH believes commenting the way he does is a witness to Jesus Christ.
I think it’s important he has the opportunity to hear from you and others who are able to respond kindly and clearly.
I think it matters to him when he reads his fundamentalism isn’t universal, and most Christians don’t play the assistant Holy Spirit.
It won’t stop him of course, but I think after all these years and all his words he has rare moments in comment sections when he does remember he isn’t in Kansas anymore.
Americans are very homophobic, it seems to be deeply ingrained in their culture.
Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuals, I don’t think he even mentioned them. He didn’t condemn prostitutes either, or women.
Sorry dh, I am not being kind. From outside the US homophobic condemnation and shunning from all things evangelical and rejection of certain lifestyles just doesn’t cut it.
God will be the judge - the US attitude vs. other Christians outside that circle.
Personally I’d rather be a light in the darkness than the earthly judge of anyone of any persuasion.
The point is still not about what actions the larger conventions are taking against these churches. I have not heard of any outside pressure being placed on Broadway BC at this time, but I’m sure that if they decide to affirm homosexuality that they will be chastized.
The point is that Baptists believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. As I said before, not matter what faith background you come from, it is impossible to defend any moral position as absoute without an inerrant scripture. So if Baptists chose not to follow the Bible, they will be removed from fellowship. It seems like this is Baptist identity to the fore, but it is actually the Bible to the fore.
We have many members who do not know how to respond in lovingkindness, because homosexuality is a ‘hot’ topic among Baptists, but in the end, they are defending the Bible.
Baptists SHOULD withdraw fellowship from any member who continues to live a lifestyle of sin. That is any sin, from homosexuality to refusing to observe the Sabbath.
Interesting point Shadrach: “but in the end, they are defending the Bible.”
And evangelicals who believe the bible is infallible think what Myers Point did and said is reflecting what Jesus Christ came for.
Meyers Park has left the convention, SBC leadership doesn’t have to concern themselves with ‘those’ sinners anymore.
Man, what a great exit they made.
“And evangelicals who believe the bible is infallible think what Myers Point did and said is reflecting what Jesus Christ came for.”
Sorry; evangelicals who believe the Bible is infallible think Meyers Point is weakening the Gospel process of admission of sin, repentance, and salvation in order to make themselves more culturally appropriate.
The method of their leaving the convention is indeed sad, but when people choose to abondon the Bible, they have chosen to abandon the only true foundation we have. We, as the greater SBC cannot affirm such actions. The NCBC did the right thing.
I know you believe that Shadrach, don’t give yourself a headache.
You’ve been very articulate about why the SBC ‘cannot affirm such actions.’
Myers Park Church honoured and participated fully in the NCBC process, the public letter posted above was their goodbye. Good on them.
Great letter. Lousy comments.
I notice “dh” couldn’t even listen to Pastor Shoemaker’s testimony:
“And we, like Peter in the Book of Acts, have overcome our original resistance to the inclusion of gay and lesbian persons as Peter overcame his resistance to accepting Gentiles into the people of God. He saw the Holy Spirit fall upon the Gentiles, he saw God working in their lives and said:
“’If then God gave them the same gift that He gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could hinder God?’”
When even Southern Baptists can notice that the Holy Spirit falls upon Gay people, as many other churches have also discovered, it’s GAME OVER for the anti-Gay crowd.
The message here is to worship God, not the Holy Book about God. The first is genuine worship, while the second is pure idolatry. God cannot be contained by even the best and truest Book. It is God’s Holy Spirit we must first attend to, not a collection of ancient hallowed writings.
God bless Myers Park Baptist Church. Those whom God has joined together let no one put asunder.
It just makes me sad. That’s the worst part. We are supposed to be loving and open, but Love is of God. Anything that is not God’s will cannot be a part of Love.
I happen to live in Niger, West Africa where we see spiritual battles on a daily basis. We see demonic possessions and true filling of the Holy Spirit, but each time they follow patterns set exactly from scripture. That is thing, Josh. God doesn’t change. Just as you cannot separate a man from his word, you cannot separate God from His Word. To call the Bible “a collection of ancient hallowed writings” is to call God an ancient hallowed god.
Biblically and in this life we see the Holy Spirit fall on those who place all former sins behind and no longer follow in them. To say that the Holy Spirit will manifest Himself in those living in sin is to call God a liar and last time I checked, there wasn’t any denomination that was going to stick with you on that one.
I appreciate what MP is trying to do. I hope they do not fall into the pit they have started toward of not being able to uphold any absolute moral guidelines. I really pray their message of Christ will lead many to repentance, but the church cannot be a place where people come to hear ‘it’s okay to be a sinner. Just say this prayer and we’ll take care of the rest.’
So, as MP signed out of their convention, I will sign out of this conversation.
The Bible is the ONLY way we know the Truth of God. Everything else is just our opinions. My vote goes for the Rock of eternity, not the quicksand of modern morality.
“The Bible is the ONLY way we know the Truth of God. Everything else is just our opinions. My vote goes for the Rock of eternity, not the quicksand of modern morality. ”
Amen, Shadrach, may God bless you over there in Niger.
Thanks for your contributions Shadrach.
Blog on!
Josh:
Tim Rogers was at the North Carolina SB meeting.
He expressed his er, concern a lesbian would be allowed at the mike.
“…never in my wildest dreams have I ever thought that we would be sitting, listening to the address of a practicing homosexual. Not only did that shock me, but we were hearing that we were mis-applying scripture if we did not affirm this church.”
I understand from his second post she quoted John 3:16. I’m sure he has sat in many a meeting listening to someone in the closet without his thoughts wandering. At any rate the attendees dutifully preached repentance. I doubt they get the opportunity that often.
“…The messengers listened to the appeal from this deacon and her Pastor. When it came time to respond from the convention floor the messengers stepped to the microphone and graciously responded. Brother David Martin from First Baptist Cary lovingly and passionately pleaded the case for repentance and becoming a new creature. Never condemning this precious lady, but openly admonishing her to repent from her lifestyle.”
http://rebekah1.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/it-is-going-to-get-interesting/
God bless Myers Park church indeed. That took courage.