14 Responses to “Don’t have kids in Covington County Alabama”

1. 1 Rev. Mike  on Mar 16th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

   Wow.  I didn’t think you had that much non sequitur in you.  You may be absolutely correct about everything you’ve written, but one would not know it to read this.  Take a deep breath, get your outrage under control and THEN make your case if you expect to convince anyone of the tragedy of this situation.
   Or was that not the point?
   Do they charge a husband or boyfriend if he was using drugs when he impregnated a women?  Of course not.
   Because the father has the ability to get drugs across the placenta to the baby?  Or was that not the point?
   Would a man be charged if he impregnated a woman in a meth lab or marijuana grow?Of course not.
   Again, because the father has the ability to get drugs across the placenta to the baby?  Or was that not the point?
   Mr. Gambril makes little distinction between fetus and child. He said his duty was to protect both — though the Alabama law he uses makes no reference to unborn children, and was primarily intended to protect youngsters from exposure to methamphetamine laboratories.
   “When drugs are introduced in the womb, the child-to-be is endangered,” Mr. Gambril said. “It is what I call a continuing crime.” He added that the purpose of the statute was to guarantee that the child has “a safe environment, a drug-free environment.”
   OK, you may have a point on this part, but by now I’m halfway through your rant, and I’m just now finding any possible double standard.  However, the story and your post don’t discuss whether any men have been prosecuted on the bases you set out.  All we know is that eight women out of 37,000 people have been prosecuted.  The law says that what these women have done is a crime, so is your beef with the State of Alabama for having such a law or with the prosecutor for having the temerity to actually enforce it?  What else do we know about this community of 37,000?  Are they facing a huge problem with meth?  Ever lived in one of these little Alabama towns in the boondocks or anywhere else in the deep South of the United States?  Ever wondered why this community finds this a big enough problem that they are taking such measures?  Or do you just assume that, hey, just a bunch of Alabama crackers, too stupid to question what the prosecutor is putting in front of them?  What, no enlightened judges in Alabama who can set appropriate sentences?  No jury nullification in Alabama?  Of course not … just barefoot, gap-toothed crackers.
   Or is Mr. Gambril’s offense that perhaps he’s guilty of prosecuting while Republican?  We know that if you are a Democrat and are guilty of prosecutorial abuse, you get a bye, at least until you get caught with a hooker, structuring your payments in order not to raise suspicions.  Oops, we learn nothing about the guy’s political affiliation here.  Do you think maybe that might be an interesting angle?  Is he aspiring to something higher up the elected food chain?  That would be a good angle to chase, but we never get past our outrage to ask the question.
   All the women charged are poor. The potential sentences can go up to 10 years.The day after giving birth a 20 year old mother was tossed in prison for a year.
   Because knocked up meth addicts generally tend to be rolling in cash, but this guy is only charging the poor ones?  One suspects that the ten year end of the sentencing guideline is intended for the ones whose children actually die, but there’s no suggestion of this here.  And after a year clean, is there any indication these mothers may actually be in better shape than prior to their incarceration?  Are there even any data one way or the other on recidivism?  Or have our minds already been made up that this is just plain wrong?
   No mention of pre-natal education or pre-natal care.
   Because we just KNOW that when one is addicted to meth one’s primary concern is how will one take care of one’s baby?  Because we just KNOW that when one is addicted to meth, one has the ability to sit in a class?  To make it responsibly to doctor appointments?Just a prosecutor who thinks women need to be punished.All the women jailed so far had prior convictions, and the NYT says local doctors are co-operating with the prosecutor.This prosecutor sees himself as an advocate for pregnant women.
   What this prosecutor is signalling is simple.  If a woman gets pregnant in Covington County; pre-natal care is dangerous, being pregnant is dangerous, giving birth is dangerous.  Seeking help for an addiction is dangerous.  Being female is dangerous.
   BING BING BING BING BING. NOW we have the agenda perhaps?
   A woman can give birth, be imprisoned the next day and a newborn is left with whomever.
   What woman struggling with addiction or what sober woman is going to trust her doctor, social workers, police, family, huband, boyfriend, anyone?
   Drug dependency as crime, not a medical issue requiring holistic treatment, doctors and caregivers as agents of law enforcement.This man is not grasping what every medical association knows from years of data and experience, criminalizing drug dependency does not promote health for women and  children.But Greg L. Gambril is doing this for fetuses and knows better than the American Medical Association, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and American College of Nurse Midwives, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the March of Dimes,
   Because we all know that these institutions are full of bias-free science and nary a trace of scientism?
   This is what happens when a fetus is given legal status.
   Sweet Jesus.  What the heck.  Just abort them then.  Give that druggie girl the best chance and to hell with the child.
   No woman in her right mind would seek help. If she has used drugs and isn’t in her right mind, what woman would seek help? These women are now felons. An Alabama paper says 10 women have been charged in the past 18 months.   The prosecutor says treatment is an option.So why make pregnancy a potential felony? Why are these women in jail instead of treatment?
   Because apart from incarceration you can’t get the addict to show up?  How would one know from what you’ve given us?  Really, this is just awful.  J-School 101 reporting.  You can do so much better than this, so why don’t you?

2. 2 Toedancer  on Mar 16th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

   “Really, this is just awful. J-School 101 reporting. You can do so much better than this, so why don’t you?” by Rev. Mike.

   I didn’t realize blogs were about reporting, I thought they were meant to stimulate dialogue.

   Rev. Mike on his own blog says “It’s not my intent to argue for or against the death penalty here. Personally, I have mixed feelings and thoughts about the matter. ”

   Shouldn’t an adult not only have made up their minds, but passionately defend being anti-death penalty by now?

   Pontificating is really awful, you can do so much better than this.

3. 3 April Reign  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 3:40 am

   Great post!

   This is what happens when a fetus is given legal status.

   Exactly! Where is the concern for these women? The protection and help for them? This is not justice and it appears many need an education on what exactly justice means.

4. 4 Bene Diction  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 6:52 am

   Mike:

   More wrongs do not make a right.

   I’m not understanding what being a Democrat or Republican has to do with using a law to throw addicts in prison.

   I’ve seen a crack baby detox, a friend adopted a fetal alcohol syndrome child, and a child born to a crack addicted mother.

   We have a very rare genetic disorder in our family which means we have five developmentally challenged special needs children.

   So by all means tell me how awful this post is, I don’t mind.
   Tell me to take a deep breath, I’ve covered health care for years, and I’m not ashamed of my anger at prosecutoral hubris.
   Nor am I one bit ashamed for my sorrow for the families of Covington County.

   You don’t want me telling you some the difficulties our family faces, or the kids face and then remind me what a lousy writer I am.
   You really don’t.

   I was born to two alcoholics.
   I live with the medical consequences every day of my life.

   If you want to say my post doesn’t rise to the level of journalism 101 I’m fine with that.
   I don’t measure up to your standards or abilities and don’t pretend I can.

   I wasn’t able to afford to attend Carleton U or Ryerson, so you put in a fair shot.

   I don’t know what ‘Alabama cracker’ means.

   I can’t convince anyone Mike, I’m not interested in convincing anyone of anything.

   The convincing is going to require medical and legal people speaking up in the state, Alabama voters will be the ones to request change.

   Do not ever come on this blog again and use the term ‘druggie girl.’

   I don’t care how addicted, lost and desperate anyone is, they are loved by God, made in His image and likeness, and we can be walking along side them, not criminalizing them.
   It’s called mercy, something the law is blind to.
   You and I are called to love, hope, grace and to aid and educate.

   If you had an addicted mom come to you as a minister, would you turn her over to law enforcement?
   Would you take care of her child while she is in prison?
   Would you hire a felon?

   No addict chooses addiction.
   What they chose is opportunities to sober up safely.
   This prosecutor cannot justify his methods.

   Yes, Michael it would be safer for women in Covington County to abort than to fall under a government zealously inappropriating law.

   If I’d written this about a First Nations Reserve that is dry and yet babies are born with FAS, you wouldn’t be here talking.

   If I’d written about pregnant women in Eastside downtown Vancouver, you wouldn’t be here talking.

   I’m sorry this post ‘does not follow’ your standards Mike, I really am.
   Write your own post, I’ll link it.
   Meantime I reserve my sorrow and despair for the women of Covington County.

5. 5 Bene Diction  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 8:33 am

   How this prosecutor has chosen to interpret this law came to the attention of state residents in February.

   ABC news: http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/0208/496076.html

   http://www.al.com/opinion/birminghamnews/
   index.ssf?/base/opinion/120332612014800.xml&coll=2

   Women are being charged and imprisoned for still births.
   South Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona, Alabama, Colorado, Georgia, Missouri, North Dakota and New Hampshire. They are criminalized as child abusers before they have given birth.

   Ob-GYN’s and medical associations are trying to get law makers and enforcers to pay attention. 41% of women of childbearing age in the US fall below the poverty level and do not have private healthcare or Medicaid.

6. 6 Jared  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

   I don’t care how addicted, lost and desperate anyone is, they are loved by God, made in His image and likeness, and we can be walking along side them, not criminalizing them.
   It’s called mercy, something the law is blind to.

   Just to be clear, this refers to physically developed persons and not persons in the womb, right?

   I don’t know about incarcerating pregnant drug addicts, but it certainly does seem odd to say that to treat the unborn as created in the image of God and worthy of mercy necessarily means denying mercy to “grown ups.”
   You mention “this is what happens when you apply legal status to fetuses . . .” You are right. If an unborn child is a child, then as with all born children, they must be protected from abuse. Don’t you agree with protecting children from abuse?

   Or is that you don’t believe a fetus is a person?
   Honest question in hopes of understanding your logic . . .

7. 7 Bene D  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

   “Just to be clear, this refers to physically developed persons and not persons in the womb, right?”

   I am referring to born, breathing, APGAR ratable, cut from the umbilical cord.

   I am not God, and I do not know when He breathes His spirit into a being. A fetus is a fetus.

   “Don’t you agree with protecting children from abuse?”

   And when did you stop beating your wife?
   On the abuse scale of 0 to 6 the abuse my siblings and I went through was rated at 4.
   0 being no abuse. 5 - institutionalized with severe physical damage, 6 - dead.

   You go right ahead and work on ‘denying mercy to grownups’ all you want Jared, I’ve made my position clear.

   There are about 4.4 million confirmed pregnancies in the U.S. every year.

   - 900,000 to 1 million of those end in pregnancy losses each year.
   - 500,000 pregnancies each year end in miscarriage
   - 26,000 end in stillbirth (20 weeks gestation)

   Read the data on incarcerating pregnant females/ or post-pregnant females yourself. Letters have been sent to Alabama by major medical organizations, pointing out far more effective interventions.

8. 8 Rev. Mike  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 5:18 pm

   Toedancer, you are a new “face” to me, so I have no idea how long you’ve been hanging around here. For my part, our host and I have had a longstanding, i.e., coming up on five years now, wonderful relationship of mutual give and take, praise and chastisement. In fact, we just got off the phone from talking VERY cordially about this issue, as old friends are sometimes given to doing, so you really ought to consider the possibility that you might be missing something here before you come after a piece of my scalp for your mantle.

   Bene understands where I am coming from about this. I didn’t want to dominate the comments section over this (so, Mike, how’s that workin’ for ya?), but there was much more to be said. Being acquainted not only with Bene’s writing here but elsewhere, there is some degree to which when Bene writes, it IS about reporting, and if blogs are meant to stimulate dialogue, I’d say we probably got one going.

   “Shouldn’t an adult not only have made up their minds, but passionately defend being anti-death penalty by now?” Perhaps so, but I’m not claiming to have all the answers. I’d certainly be open to you making up for the sub par job my parents (and clearly my wife) have done of rearing me, but be advised, I’m just shy of 47 years old, and I may be a tough case. And at this age, if I can’t pontificate, then really, what other vices are left to me?

   My bottom line, Toedancer, whether in regard to this post or in regard to your starchy little takedown, is that some of us seem to have a much clearer and purer view of what justice and mercy and righteousness require, and others of us seem to muddle through the best we can and ask forgiveness for our own inability and lack of discernment or wisdom about difficult matters.

   I’m in that latter category, but I don’t consider that some kind of red badge of courage. I KNOW I stink in the sight of God apart from the cross of Christ. How about you? As long as you appear to be prancing around my blog picking up little tidbits about which to drop pithy little comments here rather than there in my comments section (and by the way, tell all your friends, come one, come all and let us have a good chat about some of these issues), perhaps you might weigh in on the one where I wrote about the dialectic between justice and righteousness in the Old Testament. If perhaps you think you might afford me some of the righteousness about which that post speaks, then perhaps we might have some basis to talk about the justice about which you speak.

9. 9 Rev. Mike  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

   Now, for the rest of us …

   Since Bene and I just talked about this, let me go ahead and fill in the blanks about the stuff I should’ve said last night instead of just reacting.

   How many of you have lived in or at least spent some appreciable time in the southern United States? Although I was reared for about eight years in the north, primarily in the midwestern US, I have lived the bulk of my life in the south. My formative years having been spent in the north, my outlook tends to be more midwestern, but I am intimately acquainted with southern culture in a way others might not be since I also have the perspective from which to critique it as well. My reaction relates to how I think a southerner would read this.

   First and foremost, understand that small town US southerners are like small town people everywhere, and particularly small church people, churches I have served at various points over the past twenty years. They will give you the shirts off their backs if that will help you when you are down, but if they sense you are taking advantage of their generosity, they will cut you loose in a skinny minute. Tough love was probably born in the south.

   The other thing is that such communities are notoriously insular, northern or southern, either one. You’re welcome to come be part of what we’re doing, but don’t come around here trying to change us. There’s a reason that the worst resistance to the civil rights movement occurred in places like this.

   Now … put yourself in that mindset in a southern community like Covington County, AL, population 37,000 … SALUTE! (for those of you who remember Hee Haw) We don’t have problems like this around here. Meth labs? Crackheads? That’s what you get when OUTSIDERS come in. But in this day and age, you can’t get away from this stuff. In fact, as I told Bene on the phone, the people who set up these meth labs and such come to rural communities like this and set up shop because it’s far easier to overwhelm the meager law enforcement resources of these small communities.

   In these small towns, we take care of our own problems as a private matter in our own families, so what do you do when a problem like this starts to overwhelm your community? You don’t have the resources for enforcement, so you can be darned sure you don’t have the resources for prevention either.

   But … they sure do have a big ol’ dadgum prison up the highway, and you can send the problem up the road there. Let the State of Alabama deal with it. How do you justify this? Well, I don’t have the ability to take care of this in my small town, but if I send this girl to jail, at least she’s off the street and hopefully she gets cleaned up by the system because she has no access to the meth there. (Not likely these days since there’s about as much drug use in as out, but that’s another topic.)

   Also, the prison will probably have the program needed to get her broken of her addiction. It’s a sad state of affairs, but you can’t get a lot of action behind building treatment centers, but you sure can get a southerner to vote for building a prison. The other consideration is that in prison, you take away the girl’s right to say no to treatment. Perhaps elsewhere, maybe in Canada, you have a system whereby you can “incarcerate” someone like this without actually making a felon out of them, but not in the United States. As Bene and I discussed, our citizens have somewhat different emphases on individual versus community rights.

   Does this state of affairs stink? Yes, but it’s the system we’ve got, and when there is a cultural bias towards a particular way of addressing the problem, then it’s hard, perhaps even more so today, to bust up that inertia. But one thing’s for sure–no self-respecting southerner is going to take their cues on right versus wrong from The New York Times.

   Part of what chapped my hide originally was the utter hypocrisy of that paper, with its history and general outlook towards southerners as being gap-toothed ignoramuses who have just now discovered foot coverings in high society, going after a southern prosecuter after a couple of DECADES of them giving a bye to Eliot Spitzer, the emperor (VIP, even) of prosecutorial abuse because he went after the Wall Street crowd. Now that he got busted being what he is, NOW they want to tut tut about his conduct, but not before. So, regardless of what the situation might be, the last people I want to hear telling me how terrible and abusive our prosecutors are is The NYT.

   Bene, to a couple of your points, I apologize for any offense in relation to the term, “druggie girl.” It was a response to what I felt was a denigration of the worth of the fetus and was not meant as a broader value judgment regarding an addict’s worth in the sight of God. Mea culpa on that one. Completely. As regards prosecutorial hubris, we don’t learn here whether Gambril is just Eliot Spitzer’s evil southern twin or if he’s just a product of his culture who thinks he’s giving these girls the only chance he can realistically offer them. I wish I knew. As we discussed, “cracker” is a derogatory term applied to rural southerners and was meant to suggest that this is the stereotype The NYT was going for.

   And you nailed me as far as the First Nations Reserve comment is concerned. I probably wouldn’t have commented about that, but then I don’t know anything at all about that cultural context, so why would I bless you with that particular vein of my ignorance?

   Would I offer assistance as a minister to someone like one of these girls who came to me seeking it? I hope so, but institutionally I am in no better position to help in that regard than you are. I’ve had a meth addict approach me for assistance in a parking lot before, not in the form of addressing the larger problem, which I can assure you she had absolutely no interest in receiving from me. She needed money for “gas for her car,” not help. And I have seen her in that same parking lot on another occasion, and I confess that at one point I even pondered whether calling the police just to get her off the street, perhaps even accusing her falsely of soliciting for prostitution or perhaps finding some way to entrap her in such an action, might be a way to get her some help, even if for a brief time. How crazy is that? But that’s how one thinks in such hopeless situations sometimes. I seriously doubt that I as an individual had much hope of getting her free of her addiction.

   Would I hire a felon? I work at a nuclear plant; that’s not an option. However, were she already an employee, oddly enough, my employer’s Employee Assistance Program would send her to treatment if she failed a drug screen, but that’s a one shot deal. If she went back to using, she’d be bounced.

   I don’t make any excuses for who we are as southerners, but I hope this sheds some light on what Gambril may face where he is. None of this absolves him of the need to do better, nor does it absolve me either, but until a different, better, realistic, and pragmatic alternative is available, I challenge all of you to consider that he just might be doing the best he’s able. No need to write my own post since I appear to have saved you the trouble of linking it elsewhere.

10. 10 Jared  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    Wasn’t rhetorical or accusative. Was logical. Was a plea.

    In my experience, those who know abuse tend to not draw lines about who’s more of a victim and who’s not. And those who have not been embittered tend to be more merciful to all God’s creatures, not just those who are more fully developed.

    This isn’t a subject for arguing; it’s about the heart.
    Peace.

11. 11 Bene Diction  on Mar 17th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    Abuse survivors draw all kinds of lines all the time Jared.
    We colour inside them and outside them, draw them, stand on them, cross them, just like everyone else.
    You live easily in a world of clumps, groups, gatherings, clans. If that helps you figure out the lines, great.

    I am haunted.

    Tonight as Mike was straddling his two worlds and explaining to a frozen chosen, he kept saying “but I can build a prison.”
    Kept popping into the middle or end of the sentences.
    Must be the preacher in him.;^)

    Mike speaks english just fine, when he said that phrase he lapsed more into his southern accent. He’s really good at colouring.
    I saw what he was saying and our hearts broke for Alabama’s daughters.

    There is no room for sentimentality, maudlism; being clear eyed isn’t about despair or bitterness or settling for less than.
    I didn’t hang up convinced this prosecutor is about tough love as much as zealousness.

    Thanks for taking time to explain in text, and explain with grace.

    The Birmingham News had an editorial decrying the use of this law nearly a month before the NYT jumped on it. Good bet this is were they picked up this story and gave it flesh for the rest of us. The only other reference I could find this early was on womens health blogs.

    http://www.al.com/opinion/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/
    base/opinion/120332612014800.xml&coll=2

    …but I can build a prison.
    …I came to set the prisoner free…

12. 12 Lee  on Mar 18th, 2008 at 6:22 am

    Living in the great county, Covington, in the deep south of Alabama, I can tell you that meth is a constant, everyday struggle here where we live. We are not a bunch of backwoods hicks as the NYT writer would have you to believe. We are highly educated, culturally diverse, civic minided, & God fearing citizens. We have outstanding school systems, both public & private, wonderful 2-yr colleges, art centers, sports programs for our children and youth, and good economic growth. Just because we live in the deep south (and might I add, very proud of where we are from), does not mean that we are a bunch of ignorant hicks who have nothing better to do than smoke crack, grow pot and put a few mothers in jail who should know better! I have seen women who have been “strung out” on meth, that could care less if the child they are carrying is born healty or not, much less take care of the ones that they already have. These children are put in danger everyday by the choices that their “mothers” make. But by all means we would not want a woman to go to jail for endangering her unborn child or because she had her already born children in a home where they were cooking their dope–and yes this happens here as it does in other parts of the country. Just so people know, pregnant women aren’t the only ones being arrested for meth use, men and women, young and OLD alike are being arrested for using, selling and manufacturing meth. I truly do not understand why so many people from the “North” see it as wrong for Greg Gambril and the Courts of Covington County to be prosecuting these women, what? Just because a women is pregnant, she should be left alone, to continue to do drugs, deliver a child who more than likely is going to have health problems, and then expect the state to help take care of an unhealthy newborn? This child will suffer longterm effects from his/her mothers carelessness! Why shouldn’t they be prosecuted? Most of these women already have children and because of their addiction, these children are often times abused or neglected by their mother. According to the article in the NYT, Ms. Hitson had a couple of priors on her record, maybe that is why she was sent to prison instead of a treatment center. I suppose some people would feel sorry for a mother being taken away from her newborn child only one day after it was born; BUT SHE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THE BABY BEFORE IT WAS BORN!!!!! If she truly had cared about her precious baby then she would not have been doing Meth in the first place. In the article in the NYT, her grandmother made the statement that there was not anyting for young people to do in our town–whatever! There are plenty of opportunities for people young and old to find to do here, they are only looking for something to blame her problem on, instead of accepting responsiblity for her actions. There are plenty of young people in our town who go to school, college, work, are members of clubs and organizations. It’s time for people to take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming the law and it’s officers when they try and do their jobs. Yes, these people are sent to jail with a very high bond, some are able to bond out, some are not. Many of the ones that are found guilty, are given an opportunity to do their time in places that will help them overcome their addiction. Unfortunately, their are several places in our beautiful state of Alabama that have been opened to help these very people. One of this is in Covington County, it’s called Crossover Ministry. It is a Christian ministry that helps the addict to overcome his addiction, allows them to work and gives them another chance at life. It is a ministry for men, however, there are several other places like this one that accept men and women both. If people really want to know what a problem meth is , all they have to do is look around them, I can promise you it’s not just a “Southern Thang”!!

13. 13 Bene Diction  on Mar 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    Lee, I didn’t pick up that message from the NYT.

    I’m talking about a law that is being misused.
    What I’m seeing is a very poor response to addiction.

    Prison isn’t harm reduction for addicts not ready to quit, unless you know something about Alabama prisons that make them unique from any other prison in either one of our countries.

14. 14 mchele  on Mar 29th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    Is the prosecutor also charging the industries that pollute Alabama’s air, water and soil with poison, mercury, ethanol, pesticides (all known to cause damage to the fetus and child) with felony child abuse or does the law only apply to Mother’s with the disease of addiction?