WND buried the lead. Well, writer Bob Unruh not only buried the lead, he missed the point. A pentecostal family counter-cult ministry, MacGregor Ministries is setting up shop in the US under a new name because the MacGregor’s didn’t want to meet Canadian registered charity tax exemption requirements. Lorri MacGregor:
We wrote on Feb. 7 and voluntarily revoked our [license] ourselves,” she said. “We said this auditor requires us to compromise our Christian faith, which we cannot do.”
If you are going to set up a charity in the US you need a good hook and Unruh was happy to provide it. Nothing like a screaming headline about godless Canadians and their socialist government ordering God-fearing protestants around to get WND readers blood pressure up.
Lorri MacGregor, who has dedicated her life to explaining the straight and narrow of Christian beliefs since she found her way out of the Jehovah’s Witness system years ago, told WND Canada’s version of a “hate crimes” law prevented their work from continuing as it had for nearly 30 years.
“Canada is no longer a Christian nation,” she said. “And watch out America!”
Okay. Nothing new from WND. It’s the expected meme in articles about the neighbours. Canada is not a Christian nation, it is a western judeo-christian common law based nation.
The MacGregor’s have a so-so tired looking website, most of the material on sects and deviations from Christian orthodoxy posted are covered far better elsewhere.
That, however, violates Canada’s hate crimes laws, and the ministry was ordered to either make wholesale changes in its presentations, or shut down.
“There was nothing we could do that would please them,” she said. “They wanted us every time we criticized something to say, ‘So Christianity is equal to Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses… Just decide for yourself.’”
“We cannot do that,” she said of the work she and her husband, Keith, have spent their lives assembling.
The wholesale production issues also appear to be about money.
The MacGregors ask for donations, and they sell things, frankly just about everything on their two websites is for sale.
Example:
A Women in Ministry DVD done by someone other than the MacGregors and a volunteer is 3.5 hours long and sells for 34.99/US.
I don’t think so.
You want to learn about complimentarianism and egalitarianism, google.
There are numerous reputable academic sites able to provide the information for free.
If you wish to learn about apologetics, orthodoxy, sects, cults, information doesn’t have to cost you.
The MacGregors set up a post office box set up in Washington state, they live in BC. Their new ‘ministry’ is called MM Outreach Inc. (Update: A MacGregor volunteer explains the reason for the Inc. site.)
A Jehovah Witness child custody link goes to a US legal site which specializes in custody law.
The links to other groups are mostly re-prints from other websites such as Ken Silva’s anti-Catholic writings, etc.
The tract section which asks for your Visa number, is not secure.
Most of the books in the shopping section are already available from other ministries.
“We chose to shut down the ministry and we are in Washington to sign papers to start up a U.S. corporation and also start the long process of applying for 501(c)3 status in the U.S. We have been told that within five to 10 years, the U.S. government will be in the same position as the Canadian government and they will also go after Christian apologetics groups,” the alert continued.
I don’t doubt that applying for or complying with charity regulations in Canada can be arduous and expensive, a new charity application can take up to 18 months; they operated for years and during a routine audit, concerns were raised. That’s a different process, and one that is supportive.
Revenue Canada asked for changes in presentation.
As well as how the MacGregor’s chose to present their information, no doubt a basic thing like a secure online shopping cart came up.
Voluntarily withdrawing compliance and being ordered to shut down are not one and the same.
Urnuh at World Net Daily is riffing off a previous article citing The Canadian Family Coalition’s anger at Human Rights Commission going after ‘traditional family values’ and a Brampton Ontario (municipal) tax code change proposal. That information comes from WND writer Tristan Emmanuel of Equipping Christians for the Public Square.
The Brampton proposal is available in .pdf and is nearly 200 pages.
It is a public process, and Emmanuel is in usual fighting form. What a municipality looking at it’s tax code regarding religious buildings and groups has to do with the MacGregor’s genuinely eludes me at this late hour.
However, naunce isn’t part of the World Net Daily modus operanti.
This is the key statement from Mrs. MacGregor:
“We had been saving up to build a studio, because we don’t believe in debt,” she said. “At the moment we are ready to start construction, the government moved in to shut us down.”
A studio.
Private production studio?
That might be more along the lines of municipal headache. Or not.
Building a studio would mean obeying provincial and municipal building codes They can’t broadcast or produce DVD’s and CD’s from a post office box in Washington state.
It appears the MacGregors will continue their relationship with the media arm of Personal Freedom Outreach in the US.
Here is a 2004 run in with a Seven Day Adventist.
1994 correspondence with an exit counsellor for World Wide Church of God.
Iron Sharpens Iron featured Lori MacGregor in CANADA GAGS THE GOSPEL, saying 2500 charities ceased to exist in Canada this year.
That’s all?
Given there are 80 thousand registered charities, it’s reasonable 2500 would be revoked, annulled or suspended yearly.
The Canadian Revenue Agency charity webpages are a mess, (I can’t navigate them) however I’m sure the notice of annulment/withdrawal of MacGregor Ministries is available for the curious.
Revenue Canada - Religion and Religious charities policies - 41% of Canadian charities are religious.
Counter-cult ministries are not afforded charitable status in Canada.
Under privacy laws the MacGregors claims can’t be examined.
A business listing (not dated) stated they had approximately 3 employees with income from 1 dollar to 1/2 million dollars.
They were (as they have always been) free to comply with audit requests; align or combine their work with an existing registered religious group, or free to continue as a none-profit.
I see no evidence CRA was ’shutting them down.’
This is about compliance with tax code regulations for charities, not hate speech law.
Because charities in Canada are set up with public trust in mind, disbanding/annullment requires donating any of the ministry assets (ie: equipment) to another charity.
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It is simple. Stop your lies and hate speach and you will be fine.
There are so many inaccurate statements in your article. Perhaps you should have gone to the MacGregor’s to get your story straight. The name of the US ministry is not called MM Outreach Inc. That is the name of the Canadian ministry and WND correctly gave the US name as MM Outreach. The Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free is a production of MM Outreach (MacGregor Ministries) and there are no employees only volunteers. The Canadian government has not yet published the self-revocation that they received on February 11th. Other ministries specializing in apologetics are still in operation in Canada although who knows how long the Canadian government will take to get to them too.
If you would like to have the facts instead of speculating, perhaps if would be wise to come and ask.
Hi Cheryl:
1) The site says as MM Outreach Inc., front page and internal pages.
http://www.macgregorministries.org/
2) This page says MM Outreach Media Ministries:
http://mmoutreach.org/index.htm
It directs me to Keith and Lori’s page MM Outreach Inc.
3) I didn’t say the Women in Ministry wasn’t a MacGregor production, I said it wasn’t done by the MacGregors.
As in write, research voice. I understand they distribute it.
I take it this is your work:
“Cheryl Schatz has done her homework in a very thorough and thought-provoking manner. She brings to our attention the pertinent scriptural teaching that helps us see the freedom women are given by the Lord for leadership in the church and the exercise of their God-given spiritual gifts. ”
How would you like the point worded?
4) Thanks for letting me know CRA hasn’t published yet.
I can’t get into the RCA charity pages, I checked The Gazette, decisions are listed by date, not organization.
5) Profile Canada lists MacGregor Ministries as follows:
Name, address, phone number.
Approximately three employees work at this location
Sales: $1 - $500,000
Products and Services
Church Organizations
Religious Organizations
I agree, there are excellent apologetics groups operating in Canada, what facts are wrong?
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight.
A group running some kind of christian apologetics organization has a hissy fit over Canada’s hate crimes statutes and closes up shop here, and then reopens shop by registering the organization south of the 49th.
They then start running about squawking about how awful Canada’s hate crimes laws are, and WND picks up the story and distorts it even further.
Do these people actually read the statutes they are whining about? (Not to mention realize the fact that if they are living in Canada, they are still subject to Canadian law for their actions - even if they try to cloak it with a foreign-registered company)
Bene Diction,
1) and 2) The US outreach is called MM Outreach. The name MM Outreach Inc is the company that we set up in an attempt to comply with the government of Canada’s requirements. They did not want the web site and the magazine to be under the Charity so we created a taxable company to take over everything that the government objected to. The websites are in the Canadian company’s name and right now the US corporation does not have a web site although we are allowing the US company to sell products on the US ordering pages of our Canadian owned web site in order to fund the US ministry. While we did everything we could to comply with the government CRA rep, the only thing that would satisfy her is that we would either compromise our faith or be gone. We sent in our letter of revocation on February 7th, 2008 and are working to go forward without the Charity and without our bank account.
3) You said that Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free wasn’t done by the MacGregors. It was a MM Outreach (MacGregor Ministry) production until we had to take back the copyright on all of our DVDs also an attempt to comply with the government of Canada’s CRA representative’s demands. This also wasn’t good enough for her and the demands increased. Since we are ministry partners of the MacGregor’s, it is “done” by the MacGregor’s as well because the four of us worked on the production and Lorri also is in the production. I did the research, the writing (Lorri helped edit) and I did the on-screen presence (with Lorri also on-screen for one section). I hope this detail clears up the misconceptions. We are interested in truth and not distortions. I hope you appreciate the clarification.
4) We have no idea why the CRA has not published the revocation yet. It may be that our letter of revocation got into the hands of a sympathetic government employee. We sent the revocation letter under protest and named the CRA employee who was pressuring us to compromise our faith. Perhaps there must be an investigation into any improprieties before they accept the revocation letter. The CRA supervisor was so insistent on getting our revocation letter that back in February we were told through our lawyer that if they didn’t have it within a week, they were initiate the revocation themselves. So there are the facts and the government of Canada is the only ones who know now why they have not finished processing it.
5) The 3 “employees” are all volunteers. I don’t know if they list all volunteers this way, but our public files show we have no paid employees. We would have been very happy to clarify any questions you had.
We also are the only ones in Canada specializing in apologetic teaching through the media (DVD). Lorri’s screen play “The Witness at Your Door” and “The Witness Goes Out” have been used by countless individuals, groups and churches to teach Christians how to witness to the Jehovah’s Witnesses and “Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Real Jesus” has brought many to faith in Christ even one long-term Jehovah’s Witness who was an elder. The work that Lorri started with MacGregor Ministries and which is still being carried on through MM Outreach has helped bring many hurting Jehovah’s Witnesses out of bondage.
I hope this helps!
Respectfully,
Cheryl
Hi Cheryl, thanks for responding.
2) is fixed.
1) and 2) is updated to direct readers to your clarification.
Since a MMOutreach webpage is online as Inc. your explanation is here for readers.
3) I linked Profile Canada, your clarification of volunteer employees is appreciated.
I understand you are saying your counter-cult ministry is not in compliance with CRA regs and I can appreciate it is costly and time consuming to do so.
After 30 years changing a style of communication may not be possible.
Thank you for stating MacGregor Ministries chose revocation with protest.
Water under the bridge, but is not about hate speech law regardless of how persecuted MacGregor Ministries is feeling.
WND’s opinion peice on your ministry is indicitive of dominionist theology directed at US readers regarding Canada.
WND publishes known Canadian fundamentalists actively involved in political lobbying.
As a Canadian evangelical I take exception to the slant, tone and willful misdirection. We won’t see Mr. Urnuh’s article changed.
A question came up about the studio.
What happened to the studio, and what was it to have been used for?
Grog:
I think counter-cult ministry is a more realistic designation, apologetics play a secondary and economic role; as Cheryl stated they are interested in selling conservative evangelical exit teaching for JW’s.
Maybe they are being punished because they circulate lies about other churches:
http://adventistsnotcult.blogspot.com/2008/03/does-macgregor-ministries-work-for.html
Bene Diction,
I appreciated that you took the time to make some corrections.
Regarding compliance with CRA regulations, it is not a matter of change “style” of communication, or the cost of this change, what we were required to do was present Christianity as equal to other religions. i.e. Jesus is like a flavor of ice cream. Some like vanilla (JW religion) which is no different than a difference in taste (Christianity is like chocolate - my personal favorite but nothing at all like the issue of truth and error). We could not comply without violating our Christian faith. As Christians we cannot present other religions as equal to Christianity not can we accept that doctrine presented by these alternate faiths is acceptable in addition to the teachings of Jesus.
While we did everything we could to separate from the Charity the things that CRA saw as a problem, the fact is that they would not be satisfied no matter what we did. Our lawyer said that the auditing supervisor was determined to shut us down no matter what we did to comply. This is prejudice against Christianity.
Regarding the materials that we sell to support the ministry, some are unique to us and others are not. It is our goal to produce quality products that meet a unique need. For example the DVD set “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” is a unique product in that it presents the complementarian position through audio bytes of key leaders in that movement and compares it to an egalitarian position. The DVDs deal with all of the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women and deals with some of the verses that have not been adequately answered on either side. The set has caused many to see a side of the issue that they have never seen before and its value in this debate was worth the two year time period that it took to get this project completed.
Regarding the issue about hate speech, this has been an issue. The comments were made to us by CRA through a phone call. The charge through the phone call resulted in our lawyer advising us that there was no resolution in sight other than to realize that defending the Christian faith against attacks from other religions was considered “uncharitable” and could go further. We thus chose to voluntary revoke under protest.
Since we were personally charge with “hate” by the CRA supervising auditor, I don’t see Mr. Urnah’s article as misrepresenting the attack against our ministry.
The studio was to be built to produce all of our in-house productions so that we would not need to rely on the added expense of outside production costs.
Our purpose is to bring people to faith in Christ, especially those who have long been ignored by the church. How many Christians refuse to share their faith with the Jehovah’s Witnesses who come to their door because they believe that they are unreachable? I have had the privilege of leading a support group for former Jehovah’s Witnesses and as such I have seen them come out of their hurt, pain and hatred that they have for their own organization after they either were kicked out of the faith or left on their own accord after finding out that they had been lied to. Disfellowshipping has destroyed many families and a support group setting that helps people get through these hurts and learn how to forgive is extremely helpful for groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Our hearts are touched with their pain the compassion that we have for groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses compels us to share the love of Christ with them instead of turning them away at the door. Apologetics is all about loving those who do not know the forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ. It is about the defense of the Christian faith against all attacks. The error is broken down, the people are not.
Regarding the SDA’s, Lorri has written a DVD documentary called Seventh day Adventism, the Spirit behind the Church. The script was previewed by former Adventists and Lorri has all the documentation. Those who have come to faith in Christ and have left the SDA teaching about things such as Jesus being Michael the Archangel are highlighted in the DVD. It is a loving apologetics of the Christian faith and a strong appeal to truth from those who have been in that camp and have now become believers in the shed blood of Jesus without the works of the SDA faith.
Again, I hope that helps. I appreciate being given the opportunity to speak for the ministry.
Humbly and with respect,
Cheryl
Cheryl thanks. “uncharitable” sounds like what I suspect.
Counter-cult ministries are free to operate in Canada, they have to be compliant with tax code regs to have profitable charity status.
Thanks for your time.
Bene Diction,
You said: “Counter-cult ministries are free to operate in Canada, they have to be compliant with tax code regs to have profitable charity status.”
Counter-cult ministries are not free to operate in Canada as a Charity. According to the CRA ruling that we were given by the CRA supervisor here in BC, there is nothing that a counter-cult ministry can do to be compliant with the tax code regulations. You cannot possibly be “counter-cult” and say that all religions are equal. The CRA also will not let you separate your ministry into two divisions to allow the “counter-cult” work to done outside the Charity. Any counter-cult organization now operating in Canada as a Charity is one audit away from being shut down. One can be a private citizen and still speak one’s mind but it results in starting fresh without bringing anything with you from your hard work in the Charity. For people like ourselves who have always worked as volunteers this has been a big blow. It is also a warning to others who have operated what used to be “charitable” work, that what was once considered compassionate work has now been re-defined as evil, unkind work. Tell that to all the precious people who are former Jehovah’s Witnesses who have been helped by our work. Those who are writing us are very surprised and dismayed by the action of the government of Canada.
Hi, BD…
Thanks for posting this.
It led me to quite an interesting document at CRA:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4063/t4063-e.html
Slide down to the section entitled, “What are charitable purposes?”
I have trouble believing that the CRA, as a whole, would say that it is necessary for a religious charity to be able to “say that all religions are equal”. That’d kind of toss out…. oh… most of the religious charities in existence in Canada.
Christ’s peace - Richard B.
Hi Richard, good to see you surface, trust you are well.
Thanks for the link, it’s clarifying.