Johnny Hunt, pastor of a Georgia mega-church was elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention on first ballot this week.
It appears he has two ‘degrees’ that have come from diploma mills, which is not going to help the credibility of the battered Southern Baptists.
Ethics Daily has the details. The article gives some examples of times Hunt has been introduced with these ‘degrees’ without question or correction.
Johnny Hunt, pastor of First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Ga., identifies himself with the title “Dr.” and lists two accredited educational institutions on his personal Web site from which he did not receive a doctorate. Yet he is often identified publicly as having degrees—degrees that come from two diploma mills.
On his personal Web site, It’s A New Day Ministries, the “internet home of the preaching ministry of Dr. Johnny Hunt,” his educational credentials are Gardner-Webb College and the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. No reference is made to the terminal or honorary degree which affords him the prestigious title of “Dr. Johnny Hunt.”
When Hunt is named in conference programs, he is listed as having degrees from schools other than those on his Web site. Where I come from passing yourself off as accredited when you aren’t, giving yourself academic luster without doing the work is called lying, fake credentials speak to ego and pride and the bible has a fair bit to say about that. It will be interesting to see what Hunt has to say for himself.
Published 1 year, 9 months ago 72 comments72 Responses to “New SBC President Johnny Hunt and his diploma mill “doctorates’”
- 1 Pingback on Apr 25th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
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Ego and Pride? HA! You got the wrong guy pegged for that. You may want to find another soapbox to stand on.
Joe, no soapbox.
Help me understand why fake degrees are acceptable for the head of a major protestant denomination.
Help me understand why anyone would use them.
They aren’t real, so what are they about?
Why don’t you call and ask. In fact…
You can call him Dr.
I just call him pastor
tell me what it is
that you haters are after?
You findin’ a new way
to attack another man?
Attackin’ his integrity?
Better find another man
Maybe they don’t list it
and you find it appalling
I ain’t worried about that paper
Cuz it’s more about his Calling!
You can strip away the titles
Just take ‘em if you want
Get back to just callin’ him
plain old Johnny Hunt
But I know that wouldn’t phase him
He’d still keep his focus locked
Do more that all the “Doctors”
to share Jesus on the block
Put missionaries Out
Around the world to spread the Word
A little squabble over paper, man?
Don’t you find it quite absurd?
Has anybody called him?
Has anybody asked?
Or do people just jump up
at the chance just to attack?
Take time to clarify it, homie,
At least give it a try
How you pullin’ out that sawdust
with that plank up in your eye?
I ain’t sayin’ that integrity
shouldn’t be up in the light
But if you got a question
He got the digits at his site
So you can use your Sprint,
AT&T or your Verizon
Call & ask him straight
That’s all that I’m advisin’
Before you say it’s pride
& think this man is braggin’
GET ON THE PHONE AND ASK HIM, BRO
& off the hate bandwagon.
___________________________
I know your stand…but have you asked the man yet or are you just going to keep asking other people who have not asked him? Why not go to the man himself? Speculation is ridiculous.
Bienvenue Joe!
That’s a fun poem.
We don’t have AT & T, I don’t use Verizon Canada and I can’t afford to call Georgia, but thank you for the invite.
Maybe you or one of my readers can afford that call.
Would they get a straight answer?
I’m asking why it’s okay to use doctor when you haven’t earned the doctorate(s).
If you or I did that, we’d be fired on the spot, and rightfully so.
This isn’t about his calling, it’s about lying.
You aren’t saying he didn’t have a choice.
Telling me I’m hateful, have a plank in my eye is not an answer.
I’m asking credible questions about fake degrees.
I’m asking why someone in his position would represent himself or permit himself to be represented with fake doctorates.
What reason does Mr. Hunt have for using fake degrees Joe?
Why?
When you figure it out, let me know Joe.
Yeah…I’m going to ask the question BEFORE I accuse. That’s a new concept to a lot of people. Don’t you think it’s odd that SUDDENLY this becomes an issue when he gets elected? If it was so important, where was this question before the election?
FYI – If I ever hear anything about you…I will email you first before I pick up the stone. Even then…I like to practice a little something called forgiveness. Freely I’ve been given so freely I give.
By the way…you can use T-mobile or anyone else you have to call him. OH – email is free and you can email him at the church if you are interested in the truth.
Oh yeah…that wasn’t a poem…it was a rap.
Until you get the word from his mouth, I’m outta here.
-Crayzee Joe
I have emailed.
If I get a response I’ll post it.
“Don’t you think it’s odd that SUDDENLY this becomes an issue when he gets elected?”
Fair question.
What is sudden about it?
Johnny Hunt is the new president of an international organization, the question makes complete sense.
We don’t know if it has been asked before, maybe it has.
Do you know?
What is the answer?
Why?
Lying is serious.
Johnny Hunt, President of The Southern Baptist Convention has represented himself with degrees from diploma mills.
That is fact.
He is no longer just a local pastor, he got himself elected into international notice.
Like I said, bonjour.
Oh. Joe:
While you are bouncing around the web with your rap, perhaps you can tell the Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists why it is okay for the President of their convention to hold fake doctorates from diploma mills.
And while you’re at it, perhaps you can explain to all international affiliates, and approximately 10 thousand SBC missionaries – some of whom put their life on the line – why it is okay for the President of their denomination to claim Jesus Christ as Lord and lie about his academic achievements.
When you are done with that, would you care to explain to a couple of million sincere US Southern Baptists, many who hold hard earned real degrees from accredited institutions why it is okay for their new convention president to claim fake doctorates from diploma mills.
Merci.
I never said it’s okay to lie. If I did, please show me my error and I will admit it. I’m definitely no perfect guy. I don’t think it’s okay to lie. Never said that. Just said that before we start throwing stones we need to ask the accused instead of asking everyone else besides the accused. Don’t you think Jesus would have gone to Johnny first? I do.
Gotta go to work now. Peace!
I get the sense from everything you’ve written you care deeply for Johnny Hunt, he sounds like a great guy with serious decisions to make.
He has fake degrees from diploma mills.
He is not the first to wind up on the SBC executive to do so.
Mainstream Baptist:
http://mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com/2008/06/on-credible-credentials.html
“Former SBC President, Jim Henry, pads his resume with honorary doctorates in “Humane Letters” and “Sacred Laws and Letters.” Former SBC Vice Presidents Junior Hill, who nominated one of the losing candidates for SBC President this year, and Bob Pittman also pad their resumes with dubious credentials. All them come from the same diploma mill that credentialed Johnny Hunt — Covington Theological Seminary.”
Thank you.
I asked why and can fully appreciate you don’t know the answer any more than I do.
I am with you my friend…this just seems very odd to me. It has a very shady feel to it. Being a Southern Baptist living in the major “Bible Belt” city (Nashville), I have a particular interest in this issue. I tried to look up Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary online and could only find a physical address. There doesn’t seem to be a website. I also looked at Covington Theological Seminary and found >this explanation in response to questions about the schools accreditation. I understand very well the desire to not conform to the standards of the world in some things. But…in this case…I can’t really understand why you wouldn’t become accredited through ATS. At lease there seems to be some accountability through ACI.
Nevertheless, the issue is claiming degrees that may not be recognized as “legit” doctoral degrees. If the argument is that its not about degrees and that the degrees do not make the man, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, if that is the case, then why claim them? Why place Dr. in front of your name if they aren’t legit or recognized by accreditation associations? Wouldn’t it be better to just accept the degrees kindly and yet not using the Dr. name. After all, it doesn’t define who you are so it shouldn’t be that big of a deal. As you mentioned, the issue is not necessarily the degree. The issue is lying and fraud. And yet the real heart of the matter is pride.
This gives me many concerns in regards to his election.
Immanuel can be found here.
http://www.immanuelseminaryintl.org/
Typos and all. As you point out neither are accedited under ATS. One of the accediting outfits listed at Covington was charged with fraud in Missouri (?) renamed and relocated.
Mr. Hunt has another honourary degree listed in a speaker bio for a conference – Tennessee Temple U. (AABC, TRACS) and is a member in good standing with CHEA.
Was this granted?
http://www.southwide.com/speakers.php
When?
Would TTU give out an honourary if they were aware the recepient was using fake degrees?
In many cases, people get honorary doctorates for speaking at commencement ceremonies; in many cases, the schools in question don’t have any doctoral programs. For instance, I recall my Ph.D. graduation from Kent State, where the director of the Cleveland Symphony got an honorary doctorate as part of being the commencement speaker.
Those honorary degrees aren’t fake per se, but aren’t supposed to be used to burnish a resume or use the Dr. title in a professional setting. Hunt’s using bad form at minimum in using those honorary degrees to call himself Dr. Hunt.
As per the “diploma mills”, some of them are just interested in doing some basic Bible schooling and have no pretense that the course would transfer to a “real” college or that any degree from then would be useful outside of a church setting; my dad took some classes from one such Bible college in Michigan. That being said, you seem to have found a somewhat shady one who might deserve the title.
The SBC ethics department may be headed up by his niece Helen; if you want to find ethics in the SBC headquarters, you can go to Helen Hunt for it
.
When you have a valid undergrad degree and a valid masters degree from an accredited college, university or seminary, why represent yourself with honourary fake (fake honourary) doctorates from diploma mills?
The Temple U honourary may or not be be a bonifide honourary – but the other two?
Hardly some spare time book learning at an out of the way bible school.
Johnny Hunt got his resume burnished; that is not just shady or bad form.
It’s a spit in the eye to you and every member of the SBC who earned their academic credentials.
Most of us call it lying.
I’d still like to know what Rev. Hunt is going to do about it.
So everyone can know, the bio on Johnny Hunt’s website has been updated and mentions his honorary doctorates. I personally updated the bio and the fact that they were not there to begin with had nothing to do with a cover up or trying to “lie.” It was clearly an oversight and I apologize for all of you who were led astray. Regardless of whether you like Johnny or not, he was not elected President of the SBC because of the “Dr.” before his name.
Bene D –
The record has to be set straight. Dr. Hunt has never lied about his education or doctored/padded his resume has he has been accused. The website http://www.itsanewdayonline.com failed to mention his honorary degrees not be deceitful or inflate the person of Johnny Hunt. It was simply an error of omission that I am personally responsible. Many individuals in the blogosphere (yourself included) have used a very brief bio on his web page (which for the record he does not personally maintain) as a full resume. If you would like a full copy of his resume that is sent out to churches he will be speaking at then please feel free to contact me and I will gladly forward it to you.
You, along with others have quoted DailyEthics.com in your post and you are responsible for what you post. This site (and the author) have demonstrated in their post about Johnny Hunt that they have issues with him. The author has a leaning towards a President like Frank Page (a man I had no issue with), and comes across as bitter that his candidate did not win (I am not familiar with which candidate he supported).
He also mentions Steve Flockhart and his dismissal from FBC West Palm because of his “diploma mill” degrees. This is a factual error because it fails to mention the entire story. In Steve Flockhart’s resume he listed 3 schools and 3 degrees listed. FBC West Palm failed to verify what schools went with what degrees and it is very unclear whether or not Flockhart was purposefully being deceptive or dishonest. His dismissal was a result of him lying when comforted about what degrees came from what schools (a sin he has confessed and I believe meets the criteria for biblical repentance). I agree that FBC West Palm had every right and exercised that right properly in dismissing Steve Flockhart but it is unfair to lump his situation and Dr. Hunt into the same category.
DailyEthics.com also mentions several programs on which Hunt spoke and his bio referenced these degrees:
For example, the February 2007 evangelism conference program of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention said, “Hunt is a graduate of Gardner-Webb College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary.”
The October 2007 Southwide Annual Conference program said Hunt “holds Honorary Doctorate degrees from Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary, Covington Theological Seminary, and Tennessee Temple University.”
The February 2008 annual pastors’ conference of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville program said Hunt “has received a Doctorate of Divinity from Immanual [sic] Baptist Theological Seminary and a Doctorate of Sacred Laws and Letters from Covington Theological Seminary.”
When Georgia Baptist Convention editor Gerald Harris wrote about Hunt’s nomination, he included a paragraph about Hunt’s education: “Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary in Sharpsburg, south of Atlanta, awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree and Covington Theological Seminary in Rossville honored him with a Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters degree.”
So where is the deceit, lying or coverup? We can debate the use of “Dr.” before ones name if it is only an honorary doctorate on another day. As far as I am aware their are no professional/ethical guidelines that state on way or the other is right. My wife worked in the field of medicine for almost 10 years as and medical assistant. Most, if not all, of the Doctors she worked for thought that only “medical” Doctors had earned the right to use Dr. before their name (a view that I do not share).
I personally know Dr. Hunt and have worked for his website and resource ministry for the past 10 years and I know him to be a man of integrity. In no way shape or form has he ever attempted to deceive anyone or lie about his educational credentials, and it is a shame that he is having to endure this character assassination by individuals that do not know him and are trying to dig up whatever they can to attempt to bring him shame and the SBC shame.
I am under the firm conviction that the SBC can be saved but only if it is willing to unite and join the fight together. I have to say I have been ashamed to call myself a baptist after what has taken place over the past decade. The denomination has been know for what we are against (instead of what we are for), which leaders have fallen morally (instead of which leaders are faithful and strong), and the outside world watches us turn and attack one another when I don’t really think they care about a Dr before someone’s name.
I can understand the argument of whether or not someone with an honorary degree should use whatever title comes with that degree. I do not think it is right to accuse a man of lying or tarnishing his character because he choose to do so.
Goodnight!
It’s all very strange. I mean, looking at the websites of these “seminaries” (thanks for the Immanuel link), it just seems a little odd that neither of those schools have sought out accreditation through a recognized accrediting association. I understand the argument about not conforming to the world’s standards. However, a statement of that sort would assume a compromise of some sorts. What kind of compromise is made by seeking accreditation through a legit agency? In fact, wouldn’t it make more sense to seek out this type of accreditation because it may open up more doors of influence without compromising the gospel one bit? It just seems silly.
As far as convention presidents are concerned, Hunt’s election and presidency seems to carry the same flavor as Bobby Welch. Both seem to represent the old guard of the SBC. When the Tennessean (Nashville newspaper) interviewed Hunt about the change that needs to take place in the SBC, he mentioned “radical” leadership and being cheerleaders for people so that they feel good and part of a winning team. It sounds like the same ole’ thing to me (maybe aside from our recent president Page). I’m anticipating another million man, cross country campaign. Warm up the bus.
Like or dislike isn’t the topic or the issue here.
“A half truth is a whole lie.” – Yiddish Proverb
“If you would like a full copy of his resume that is sent out to churches he will be speaking at then please feel free to contact me and I will gladly forward it to you.”
Kind of you, I don’t need it thanks – why don’t you send it to the Canadian Southern Baptist headquarters, they are the ones that have to deal with the shame of their new president using fake degrees.
Covington and Immanuel are diploma mills.
No one here said there was a cover up.
I’m saying representing yourself with degrees from diploma mills is lying.
Calling Immanuel and Covington degrees ‘honourary’ doesn’t change anything.
Saying this is just how business is done in Georgia, doesn’t make fake credentials real.
“For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.” – Richard Clopton
Covington is an mutation of a company (ACI) charged with fraud and kicked out of Missouri.
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm3.html
From Covington: The accreditation we currently hold is with ACI.
Fake and fraudulant accreditation.
Immanuel: Georgia Federation of Christian Colleges and Christian Universities–a Division of the American Federation of Christian Colleges and Schools; Unrecognized
GFofCC&CC; Fake
http://www.degree.net/guides/non-gaap_listings.html
Repeating lies over and over do not make them true.
Others repeating a lie does not make it true.
You just answered Joe’s question.
You just said you’ve communicated for Johnny Hunt for 10 years – you knew about Mr. Hunt’s speaker bios, Immanuel and Covington and you admit you willingly helped misrepresent your boss.
You just said you are perpetuating an inability to uphold basic standards by adding the diploma mills to your bosses website.
You’ve just said you have willfully ascribed, sanctioned, designated these diploma mills and fake degrees, and have chosen or been told to pass them off now as honourary.
The subject remains diploma mills, fake degrees, how adults choose to use them and why.
“Man can certainly keep on lying… but he cannot make truth falsehood. He can certainly rebel… but he can accomplish nothing which abolishes the choice of God.” – Karl Barth
“In no way shape or form has he ever attempted to deceive anyone or lie about his educational credentials…”
Sad.
So this is supposed to get changed to miscommunication, your oversight.
No.
Real life doesn’t work this way.
Lies are by commission or omission.
I do not see the h.c. after those degrees, Chris.
honoris causa – for the sake of honour
Bonsour, salu.
Bene D-
It is obvious you have no desire in discovering truth just tearing down the man.
What was listed on the website was a brief bio and has been ashamedly attributed as being resume. For the record he did not apply for the position of SBC President.
You stated: “You just said you’ve communicated for Johnny Hunt for 10 years – you knew about Mr. Hunt’s speaker bios, Immanuel and Covington and you admit you willingly helped misrepresent your boss.”
and
“You’ve just said you have willfully ascribed, sanctioned, designated these diploma mills and fake degrees, and have chosen or been told to pass them off now as honourary.
How have I “willingly” misrepresented him? There was no intention to deceive anyone in any manner. I choose to mention on the website his honorary degrees to address the small minority of individuals that were having issue. I am not trying to pass them off honorary, they are honorary and always have been. Hunt was never trying to get a “fake” degree but as a former high school drop out he has been on a personal pursuit of knowledge which included attending both accredited and unaccredited institutions.
You also stated: “You just said you are perpetuating an inability to uphold basic standards by adding the diploma mills to your bosses website.”
Who’s standards? Please reference a professional or acceptable source when making such a position. I even agreed in my earlier post that the argument is valid on whether or not to use “Dr.” when one has received and honorary doctorate, but I have not found a clear cut answer. Mostly just people with earned doctorates upset about someone using it when it was not earned. That hardly stands as the answer.
You also stated: “The subject remains diploma mills, fake degrees, how adults choose to use them and why.”
Seriously? While that is the title of your post it seems you are more interested in label Johnny Hunt a liar (please notice how I did not use Dr., I didn’t want to cause you any more heartache). His website bio does not mention the fact that he has grandkids. Does that mean they don’t exist or he is lying about them? How did he lie? And I hope you have more than just his bio. He has never claimed his doctorates where earned or even implied that they were.
Webster’s dictionary defines “lie” this way:
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
1. There was no untrue statement or intent to deceive, 2. no one was trying to create any impression.
The thing is, if anyone was that hung up on the issue they could have simply asked Hunt. The fact that he has honorary degrees is public knowledge, the reason that anyone refers to him as Dr. Hunt is out of honor. Another blogger mentioned that Hunt’s degrees would not be excepted at an institution for a teaching position. Fine, Hunt is not trying to get a teaching position, he is trying to lead his local church and he has done such an excellent job that his peers choose him to lead the SBC.
I think its rather ironic that the only people picking up this story our bloggers (with the exception of one that has a small editorial in the Washington Post, which is the same editor of DailyEthics.com and I addressed him earlier) and they constantly mention the “fundamentalist” camp that they accuse Hunt of being in. I wish they would be honest and say that they have put Hunt under the microscope because they wanted another candidate to win. I know that won’t happen but a man can dream.
Thanks for your time.
Hi Chris, fair questions and reasonable discussion.
I’m glad you came back.
I don’t know Johnny Hunt, I’m not in the US, I’m not SBC, this isn’t personal.
Nor is this just your local pastor anymore.:^)
Since you object so strongly to the post title, tell me what you’d like instead.
Let’s try this.
Johnny Hunt has been elected by the membership to serve as president.
He was duly nominated, duly ran and was duly elected.
His diploma mill use and the doctorates validity are now the concern of the worldwide membership of the SBC.
1) “How have I “willingly” misrepresented him? There was no intention to deceive anyone in any manner. I choose to mention on the website his honorary degrees to address the small minority of individuals that were having issue. I am not trying to pass them off honorary, they are honorary and always have been.”
Okay.
You’ve put degrees from the diploma mills on his website now.
You can’t honestly put h.c. behind them.
How can you even call them honourary?
Because the diploma mills do?
They aren’t real.
You believing they are honourary has nothing to do with the reality of fake accreditation.
He didn’t need them to be elected to what is now an international position, did he?
Johnny Hunt is facing questions about the validity of his use of diploma mills.
No one is naive, a retired FBI agent who spent his life investigating fraud stated in 2005 there were approximately 500 diploma mills in the US, thousands across the world.
2) Who’s standards? Please reference a professional or acceptable source when making such a position.
Is the US Dept of Education acceptable to you?
State attorney offices?
Better Business Bureau?
ATS?
Doctorates from Immanuel and Covington are not legitimate.
Other denominations and their educational institutions respect the US Dept. of Education.
The US Dept. of Education doesn’t recognize Immanuel and Covington.
Lies. Meaningless. No value. Fake. Fraud.
http://www.ed.gov/students/prep/college/diplomamills/diploma-mills.html#defined
I don’t know if Johnny Hunt bought them or was paid to take them.
I’m hearing you say he didn’t do the few few hours ‘work’ to get them, since you recognize them as honourary.
I recognize his accredited degrees.
Good for him, he can honour integrity, value and credibility in education.
He probably doesn’t need them either to be elected president of the SBC, but they are recognized around the world, by our governments, denominations and institutions as earned and valid.
2) “You also stated: “The subject remains diploma mills, fake degrees, how adults choose to use them and why.”
Seriously? While that is the title of your post it seems you are more interested in label Johnny Hunt a liar (please notice how I did not use Dr., I didn’t want to cause you any more heartache).”
As a follower of Jesus Christ I suppose you could call this heartache.
Sorrow, discouragement, mistrust, shame.
You are saying it’s perfectly okay in your state, your denominational culture to contravene US educational standards.
Act, accept contrary, to academic standards required of others in your denomination.
Others using diploma mills in the SBC have been called on the carpet.
You brought that up, I didn’t.
If this was an elected Catholic, Methodist, United, Baptist (etc.) denominational position these questions would be raised.
Denominations address this issue institutionally.
Ethics and morals matter individually and institutionally.
Doctrinal standards are important, but academic standards aren’t?
When Johnny Hunt crosses state or international borders he can be rightly introduced as SBC President. Calling him Dr. furthers the reality diploma mills are set up with the intent to deceive.
3) “His website bio does not mention the fact that he has grandkids. Does that mean they don’t exist or he is lying about them?”
Are the grandkids fake? Did he buy them? Did someone hand them to him and say, here, be an honourary grandfather, have some honourary grandkids? Hey, Hunt, I’ll sell you some fake grandkids, they’ll look great for your image.
Use them in your life, on your webpages, bios, for media blurbs.
Does the US government accredit grandkids and warn about fake grandkid mills?
4) “How did he lie? And I hope you have more than just his bio. He has never claimed his doctorates where earned or even implied that they were.”
He has fake honourary degrees from diploma mills.
He knows he has been called Dr.
That is lying.
Did someone twist his arm?
Force him to misrepresent his academic qualifications?
Force him to use diploma mills?
When he is called Dr. does he correct it or ask his staff too?
The governor of his state called him Dr.
Pastor.
Fine.
Rev.
Fine.
SBC President.
Fine.
Dr. Hunt.
No.
Way to embarrass the governor’s office, there. They have the responsibility to uphold academic standards for their citizens, and religious guys with fake honourary degrees from diploma mills piss on them and their jobs. This is serious stuff.
Now that Johnny Hunt is an international figure, what’s the problem with making this right?
His congregation accepts him, he’s got real degrees, (and possibly a real honourary) he acknowledges these.
He permitted/asked you as his employee to put his fake degrees on his personal website.
They’ve been wilfully used to misrepresent him, you’ve colluded, he’s colluded, it’s lying, it’s wrong. Fake honourary degrees do nothing to further his new office, the cause of Christ or anything else.
If/when the state shuts these two diploma mills down, will the honourary degrees vanish?
Johnny Hunt can acknowledge the harm to the membership, nationally and internationally in his new position, the harm of diploma mills to SBC accredited institutions and put a stop to this misrepresentation any time he wants to.
5) “The thing is, if anyone was that hung up on the issue they could have simply asked Hunt.”
Yes.
We don’t know they haven’t.
People are asking now.
Chris, you’ve been inferring these questions are political, or about enemies, agendas, or jealousy.
Maybe some. But all?
Morality, ethics, institutional integrity, international representation aren’t on your radar screen other than the personal bother of a few accusers.
Does Johnny Hunt list the Doctor of Divinity and Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters on his resume?
I’d like to know what your boss has to say.
Bene D-
It is late so I will try to be brief.
First I want to quote Alvin Reid who posted over at http://forgodssakeshutup.blogspot.com/2008/06/mr-hunt-i-presume.html#comments.
“Hello sir,
I stumbled across your blog and agree that sometimes we should learn to keep our mouths shut. I have to say this, however. I have spent a lot of time around Johnny Hunt over the years. I have never seen him make any kind of deal about the title Dr. He has always been content to be referred to as Pastor Johnny. In fact, the only time I have ever heard of him referring to his being a doctor, relating to his D.D. given as an honorary degree, he said it meant “didn’t do it.”
I earned a PhD. I appreciate those who paid the price to do it right. I have met many who got cheesy degrees from shady schools. I have never seen Johhny Hunt act like that. So, while i will grant you the right to chide him, I expect he might just agree with you.
At any rate, I earned my PhD so I don’t worry too much about folks who are called Dr. Besides, it is actually appropriate in culture at large to refer only to medical doctors as “Dr.” in conversation. So, I am happy to be called Brother Alvin or just Doc as those who know me well refer to me.
Anyway, I am droning on. I would say finally that if you would criticize president Hunt (I think he did earn that title), it may be more appropriate to do so on issues of more weight. But this is your blog after all!”
Dr. Reid’s comment about Johnny Hunt referring to his D.D. as “didn’t do it” is correct and I wish I would have remembered that comment (which I have heard him make on many occasions).
Anyway, he does of an honorary doctorate from Tennessee Temple University which is an accredited institution just for record.
Also, you asked if the doctor of Divinity and Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters is listed on his resume, they are. I offered earlier to send you his resume but you declined. Although I wouldn’t really call it a resume since he isn’t looking for a job. It’s more of a ministry, educational, and family recap (it fits on 1 8.5×11 sheet).
You also referenced:
“2) Who’s standards? Please reference a professional or acceptable source when making such a position.
Is the US Dept of Education acceptable to you?
State attorney offices?
Better Business Bureau?
ATS?”
I was just asking of whether or not an honorary degree allowed one to use the initial Dr. before their name and list those degrees on a bio/resume/website. The link you provided does not answer that question.
And you referenced:
“Others using diploma mills in the SBC have been called on the carpet.
You brought that up, I didn’t.”
I did bring that up and you used it out of context. The issue for Steve Flockhart was not the accusation of diploma mills or even his resume. When confronted (after he was hired) about some questions about his degrees he lied about what degrees came from what schools. What Steve did was wrong but FBC West Palm bears as much blame for not checking in the first place the validity of his resume.
Hunt has fully disclosed where his degrees (honorary or not) came from and has never lied to the fact. He has (as far as I am aware) referred to himself as Dr., and he has made comments to the effect of the fact that the doctorates were not earned.
To accuse a man of lying is to accuse him of sin and demand first that he should be confronted in private (which has not happened), and not in the public forum. It also warrants proof that he has lied and therefore committed a sin. I can see you cause for alarm on some points, but that does not make Hunt a liar and deceiver.
Many of the attacks have been personal and have carried a political tone and an agenda. The debate on the validity of the degree and acceptability is fine, but to resort to personal attacks on a man’s character when he has neither lied or deceived is crossing the line and highlights the fact that some motive (and not pure) is involved. Just because he is not your pastor or your president does not give you the luxury of exempting yourself from this being “personal.” You have a personal motivation for your views and I am not the judge of what your motives may be.
I will concede the the honorary degrees from Covington and Immanuel are questionable, and I don’t know what work was completed to receive them (if any), but I do know that Johnny has fully disclosed that information of their origin and has never used them to promote himself or his position.
I am sure you will have more for me later, but at this time I need my rest.
Goodnight and many blessings!
“didn’t do it”
Then he doesn’t need either one.
Going through this thread there is a lot of passion.
I asked why someone would use diploma mills.
I never said Johnny Hunt didn’t disclose.
He’s right out there with diploma mills dangling.
I read the Steve Flockhart story, in the SBC inhouse publication.
The article was pretty clear among other things about why using diploma mills undermine the denomination, individuals, congregations, academic credibility and leadership.
I agree again Chris, there is a sad difficult lesson for congregations – the body politic – in the Flockhart story isn’t there?
1) “To accuse a man of lying is to accuse him of sin and demand first that he should be confronted in private (which has not happened), and not in the public forum.”
How do you know it hasn’t happened?
Joe asked.
It is a perfectly reasonable question.
We’re repeating ourselves.
Joe doesn’t know, I don’t know. Jeff doesn’t know. Mark doesn’t know. Do you know?
Johnny Hunt knows.
If the gentleman you quoted (Alvin Reid) spoke directly to Mr. Hunt about his fake doctorates from diploma mills, do you believe he was the only one?
The day Johnny Hunt became President of the SBC he put himself under a different spotlight. Being in the public eye sucks pavement sometimes, fake degrees from diploma mills and all. It’s difficult.
I think it was decent of you to offer to send a resume, but it isn’t going to change anything, not in this post, this conversation or the SBC, the only person that can do that is Johnny Hunt.
2) “Hunt has fully disclosed where his degrees (honorary or not) came from and has never lied to the fact.”
Yes.
They’ve been out there.
Diploma mills hiding in plain sight.
Fake degrees tacked into bios, speaker representation, articles.
3) Many of the attacks have been personal and have carried a political tone and an agenda.
Yes.
I’ve seen some.
Those attacks do. not. change. the. information.
Personal attacks do. not. change. the. facts.
A ‘line is crossed’ when someone uses diploma mills.
4) “Just because he is not your pastor or your president does not give you the luxury of exempting yourself from this being “personal.” You have a personal motivation for your views and I am not the judge of what your motives may be.”
This isn’t about my luxury, I’m not holding elected office.
The facts you’ve carefully acknowledged haven’t changed.
I said:
“Where I come from passing yourself off as accredited when you aren’t, giving yourself academic luster without doing the work is called lying, fake credentials speak to ego and pride and the bible has a fair bit to say about that.
It will be interesting to see what Hunt has to say for himself.”
Maybe using diploma mills isn’t about egos and pride.
http://www.degree.net/html/diploma_mills.html
I have one more thing for you Chris, mentioned earlier in our conversation.
“While that is the title of your post it seems you are more interested in label Johnny Hunt a liar… ”
Since you object strongly to the post title, tell me what you’d like instead.
Bene D-
I don’t object to the title of his post and the last post I do not object to at all.
This all began with Parham’s articles on Johnny winning the presidency and was full of biases and assumptions. If anyone could not see that they were biased they need help. It was definitely not “fair or balanced.”
My objections have fallen when you, others in this post, and other bloggers have questioned the character of Johnny Hunt (and calling a man prideful, egotistical, and a liar is personal and a character attack). You can say its about the facts but it’s not. I have no problem with the facts being addressed. That attack is personal and for the record this (the blogs) all took place before anyone personally brought it up to Hunt. That is wrong. Did you contact Johnny Hunt before your post?
You can question the degrees all you want. I don’t have an argument for you on that. I personally don’t know the validity of the degrees or the institutions where they came from. As far has Hunt using (or allowing others to) “Dr.” before his name, I have not been able to find acceptable, professional guidelines for those with honorary degrees (I am referencing the honorary degree from TN Temple which is accredited).
What will Hunt do in response to his honorary degrees? I don’t know. I haven’t spoken directly with him about this subject. I will be speaking with him next week. If I glean some insight I will gladly pass it along.
Thanks.
Diploma mills aren’t fair or balanced either.
I get this is very personal for you, I hope you find the peace to evaluate the information you’ve gleaned to the best of your ability.
When you speak to your boss next week you’ll have an opportunity millions of SBC members don’t have. Go under the mercy.
BeneD,
Seems like a real reach, trying to make it look like he lied on his resume, or that he is unqualified or passing himself off as something he’s not…
I don’t know a whole lot about the two schools in question, but how can you get cranked up about honorary degrees??? No doubt the schools gave them to him because he’s a great man and they wanted to claim some sort of relationship with him. Besides that diploma mill is a pretty strong term and it does not appear that either school “sells” diplomas. The have actual courses and actual guidelines. So you might be lying calling them a diploma mill. Wouldn’t want you to do that.
Hunt is not some fly by night guy, he’s got a master’s from swbts and pastor’s one of the greatest churches in the SBC this is clearly an attack and a hack job.
Bene D-
I did receive one piece of info today. Johnny Hunt did not buy or request the honorary degrees from Immanuel and Covington. Those institutions elected on their own to give Johnny Hunt those honors. Many of the national news outlets have been in touch with FBCW and Johnny Hunt’s office after picking up the story on the blogosphere and as far as I am aware none of them have picked it up because there really isn’t a story their. The debate can rage on about diploma mills, but Johnny Hunt has done no wrong.
The resume/bio that I have offered to send clearly states that these degrees are what they are and clearly imply nothing was done to receive them (including the one from TN Temple).
I have gleaned a lot from my discussion in this post and in a few others I have participated. I have mostly been discouraged that people are willing to attack a man they do not know with facts they do not possess. Many of the blogs only further fueled the discussion, not by adding anything new, but by repeating the words of others that they did not take the time to verify.
I asked you and several other bloggers if they contacted Johnny Hunt before they accused him of lying, pride, etc. as the bible mandates and either got a response of “no” or no response at all.
I do take this personally because it’s a personal attack. You can attack the issues all you want, but when you question the integrity and character of a man then you have made it personal. I have addressed this blog and others and try not to attack anyone personally and address the issues at hand.
I have often been asked by friends and family why I haven’t starting blogging myself (since I am a pretty avid reader of blogs). The answer is quite simple. I often see blog become nothing more than bully pulpits and rants that do nothing to promote the kingdom of God, and I feel it is better to avoid the temptation of doing such. That’s not to say I won’t start one day but at this time I have chosen to refrain.
After typing these post I always take a moment to reread them. I have often started over… not because of grammar (which I know is not perfect) or devise a better argument, but to say what is the right thing to say. And even then I have sometimes failed.
Johnny Hunt is a Godly man that has worked hard for the glory of God and His Kingdom. He did not deserve the things said about him, and I would be embarrassed to have said some of the things that have been posted about him if directed at my enemies (which I pray are few).
Bene D, I have no reason to believe that you have any ill will towards Johnny Hunt but your post and some of the others did not present themselves that way. It’s also not fair to beat up a dog that doesn’t even now he is in a fight, and I applaud Johnny for not jumping in. I have thought several times over the past few days that maybe I shouldn’t have either. A man that has done no wrong has no need to defend himself (or to be defended by others).
Goodnight… I have some ice cream on the table.
Thank you Chris, I appreciated your candor and your time.
Mike:
Diploma mill degrees – bought, sold, taken, honourary, given, ‘earned’ – are called “Name it and Frame it” degrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_It_and_Frame_It?
It’s a known practise in Calvary Chapel, Independent Baptists, some branches of neo-pentecostalism and now the SBC.
Some states have outlawed them for obvious reasons, but enforcement remains difficult.
The latest twist coinciding with the internet is fake accrediting agencies.
Unfortunately not surprised in the least. Smarmy lyin scam artists don’t seem all that Christian to me.
Woman at Mile O
You might appreciate a ‘why’ kind of answer from an SBC minister and english teacher in Kentucky who isn’t impressed with diploma mills either – he understands the drive and need that drives people into these smarmy scams in a way I don’t.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-big-money-for-a-little-piece-of-paper-dedicated-to-dr-johnny-hunt
Bene,
That link you gave leads no where? I am curious what other ways are there to obtain a or earned???
FYI, I checked out Covington’s web-site and while it is obviously not SWBTS it does appear that they offer legitimate courses of study and maintain reasonable admissions standards. I’m not suggesting that this is the best or even an advisable course that a young minister should take in their pursuit of higher education, but they don’t appear to be selling diplomas which is what is being implied.
Seems like sour grapes from a bunch of people that just don’t like the guy.
This isn’t about liking or disliking someone. You may dislike me, it doesn’t mean you wouldn’t give me facts or tell me the truth.
“I am curious what other ways are there to obtain a or earned???”
Would info from the US Federal Trade Commission be acceptable?
Guidelines for employers: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/diplomamills.shtm
Guidelines for consumers:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt149.shtm
Accreditation:
The process of evaluating the academic qualifications or standards of an institution or program of study in accordance with pre established criteria.
Such accreditation is provided by one of the regional accrediting commissions of the various associations of schools and colleges for the institution or by an appropriate national association for a specific area. (USA) Most areas of study do not have accrediting agencies.
What accreditation commisions does the SBC adhere to?
The SBC has 7 institutions of higher learning that regularly go through “validation of a their programmes by an independent organisation, which has established standards for judging quality.”
Accreditation agencies for the 6 USA seminaries: ATS, SACS
Canada: Canadian Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
(Masters level) ATS
If you or I chose to learn for fun, don’t need an employer to recognize the course work and can afford it, fine.
Mark mentions that above.
If I wish to transfer credits, get a job or obtain a legal degree I’m not going to seek it at B.H. Carroll for example.
They are clear their credits are not transferable, not recognized by employers and their degrees are illegal in some juristictions.
I earn course credits or a degree by:
1) attending
2) long distance learning
3) both
I did a course on 20th century literature and the OT from Western U by long distance learning while living in the Maritimes.
When I was ready for the final exam, it was proxied – my on site supervisor for the exam was a lawyer; the designated place and time (Dalhousie U) was not doeable.
Covington and Immanuel accredidation, see comment 17.
Admission standards are not exit standards.
Chris said:
“I did receive one piece of info today. Johnny Hunt did not buy or request the honorary degrees from Immanuel and Covington. Those institutions elected on their own to give Johnny Hunt those honors.”
Johnny Hunt said: “didn’t do it” (didn’t buy, earn the 2
This isn’t sour grapes Mike.
If you have an emotional and personal attachment for someone you respect and appreciate I can understand why you’d feel that.
I posted this response over at http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-big-money-for-a-little-piece-of-paper-dedicated-to-dr-johnny-hunt#comment-250172
I figured I would post it here also.
Bene D-
You mention that “Immanuel and Covington employee Hunt family members.”
Who are they?
You also mentioned “I wish I’d never posted about Johnny Hunt’s degrees, wish I’d never heard of Johnny Hunt.”
Yet it is you that seems to not be able to let go… you are demonstrating the saying “beating a dead horse.”
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time with this… apparently Johnny Hunt is not the one with a problem.
By the way, I will be with him next week. As soon as I can, if he has a response… I will post it here first.
Chris Lee
I think you have a point, this thread hasn’t died out yet.
“Who are they?”
Serious opps. Hunt should not have been in front of that, it’s a typo, and it’s wrong.
Thank you for catching that.
I’ll head over now and leave a correcting comment.
If you know who these families are and care to elaborate, feel free.
Covington:
President; James Stevens Sullivan, Jr.
Executive secretary; Glenda Sullivan
Director of administration services; Brent Sullivan
Immanuel:
James Stewart (faculty)
Clara Stewart (faculty)
Stephen Stewart (off campus director)
Thanks Chris, looking forward to what you have to say.
You have got to be kidding me. I was member of FBC when Johnny got his D.D. His joke then was it stands for Didn’t Do it. He hasn’t changed. He does not toot his own horn. He’s a humble man that loves Jesus and loves people. He has risen to a place of prominence because of those qualities.
Fake doctorates from two diploma mills aren’t tooting your own horn?
He took them.
You’ve got to be kidding me.
It is funny to me that some of you seem to be more interested in where Dr. Hunt went to school than what he has done for The Kingdom of God and the cause of Christ. If I remeber correctly Peter, James, John, Timothy, Titus and John the Baptist never went to anykind of seminary. The last time I checked the Bible said study to show yourself approved. I believe that Dr. Hunt has more than proved through his ministry that he has been approved by God. The record of his life, the life of his church and the work he has done for Christ locally, regionally and globally are testimony enough for me. You get on here and criticize him and I doubt your ministry has accounted for 1/3 of the people coming to know Christ as Savior as his has. We are not eachother’s enemy. We should all rejoice when God uses somone even if they did not go to the school we think they should
Dustin
Dustin:
Johnny Hunt didn’t ‘go to school’ to get those doctorates, they are from diploma mills.
This isn’t about what education we think he should have (he as one) it’s about ethics and honesty.
I don’t know if anyone who commented has a ministry, I don’t care, we are not each others enemy.
This speaks to credibility, about faithfulness in small things. Johnny Hunt has the opportunity to do the right thing. It’s his choice.
Just how is this blog furthering the kingdom of God? I suppose the time you have spent on here is in line with God’s agenda instead of your own. Let’s get the real scoop. Many have degrees from seminaries and they are about academics. I really do not believe God is impressed with a piece of paper even mine. Most of the students I went to seminary with were trying to figure out what ministry they were GOING into. During chapel most of the Dr.’s to be were going for coffee. If we are honest most are seeking degrees so that it opens doors for larger platforms. Maybe some are bitter because their degree has not given them a spotllght. It was not Brother Johnny’s degree but his desire to bring God honor that has placed him where he is.
In closing, an opinion about these God-honoring blogs. No answer is needed because I will not be here. I stumbled on this looking for information but I must really get back on track to the work at hand. The opinion is this if we spent as much time doing what God has called us to maybe there would be a spiritual awakening where we live. If you are a leader of a church i don’t bleive they are paying you to spend hours on a blog. In fact isn’t that stealing. Let’s focus on how to get people in gthe kingdom of God as the time of his return is drawing near.
There is no info on Pastor Hunt’s page any more, however, if you care to look at the Southern Baptist Convention’s Pastor’s Page, http://www.sbc.net/PresidentsPage/JohnnyHunt/bio.asp, you will see that Dr. Hunt holds earned BA and M Div degrees, but claims NO EARNED doctorates so what is the big deal? How is he lying unless he claims EARNED doctorates that he doesn’t have. Brother Johnny is a very effective pastor and preacher. That doesn’t come from a school, that comes from God! My husband and I worshiped with him and his church this last Sunday. We had a great time and felt the presence of the Holy Spirit and the warmth and love of this congregation of believers. What else really matters? People are being saved, churches started, missionaries sent. Is this not the work of the Lord? If it isn’t, I don’t know what is.
Answer your own question.
What is the big deal for a follower of Jesus Christ promoting diploma mills…
Explain to me why diploma mills are harmful.
Answer your next question, being faithful in small things and love not needing to lie.
Is this not the work of the Lord… No one said a church is not a church. That is great you were in the presence of the Lord, enjoyed yourself and you felt loved.
We are talking about diploma mills and the undermining of seminaries, education, credibility and leadership.
Johnny Hunts fake degrees are mentioned on at least one SBC site, he has not denounced the practice, them not being on a page does not make this go away.
The link you gave me says this, I stand corrected, it is on this page:
* Gardner-Webb College, Boiling Springs, North Carolina: BA Degree-Religion, 1979.
* Voted ministerial student of the year in 1979.
* Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, North Carolina: Master of Divinity Degree, 1981.
* The Chair of Church Growth at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary was named in Dr. Hunt’s honor on March 11, 1997.
* Dr. Hunt received an honorary Doctor of Divinity from Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary of Sharpsburg, Georgia, and also Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters from Covington Theological Seminary. He also received an honorary Doctor of Divinity at Tennessee Temple University
TTU is accredited btw and yes, he has earned degrees, that is not the issue.
Answer your questions, I am curious.
Please tell me what is wrong with Covington Theological Seminary as it relates to theological studies. It does not claim to be preparing students for secular work or teaching in higher institutions. It does claim to be helping to prepare ministers and others to be better as Christian Workers in the Kingdom of God.
Please tell me aside from “regional” accrediting standards what is the real problem with Covington Theological Seminary. Those who have earned degrees from this school, should they feel free to hang their diplomas in thier offices?
Dennis:
If Covington teaches good theology, why can’t it seek accredidation? Covington can’t claim it’s preparing anyone for life work because it isn’t, it’s another diploma mill.
The diplomas don’t give you entrance into institutes of higher learning. It’s a diploma mill. Is it ethical or moral to claim you’ve received higher education that qualifies you to teach or work if that is how Covington permits it’s grads or buyers to represent themselves? The degree isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.
So Christians have jumped on the diploma mill bandwagon.
Quelle surprise.
If the theology and teaching standards are adequate, then Covington could be accredited.
People are easily fooled, if anyone choses to hang a Covington ‘degree’ that’s their decision.
Why would I trust them?
If they believe what they have done isn’t unethical, doesn’t relate to larger community, (and you see that argument being made in this thread) then I’m not giving them my trust.
You could just as easily hang a fake one from an accedited Uni couldn’t you? That would be fraud, and it’s fraud for a valid reason.
Read the comments – I think your question has been answered.
The main reason small schools do not seek accreditation from a USDE recognized agency is not quality. There is a HUGE price tag to accreditation and some standards that make it very costly. I’m not excusing schools that require no work or utilize life experience for all degree requirements (even some accredited schools allow for some life experience credits). Another reason a school may not be accredited is the amount of time it takes to be accredited. The self review alone can require many years. I know of several start up Seminaries that will not be accredited for 7-10 years. They have to justify the cost and time requirements against the gain.
My first degree was from a school accredited by ACI, under your standard stated above, a “diploma mill”. I completed 120 credits of Theological training. Some of the courses for the undergraduate degree were graduate level courses that many accredited schools use for distance learning. Every test was proctored and my term papers were fairly graded. I worked as hard at this school as I am now working in seminary at Liberty or that I did completing my “accredited” undergraduate degree. Unaccredited does not “diploma mill”. I am not aware of why the two schools in questions have not sought accreditation, but I can say not every unaccredited school is a diploma mill.
I praise God for Dr. Johnny Hunt’s ministry. God has worked through him in wonderful ways. I’ve never met him personally, but I have been ministered to through his online sermons and his sermons at Liberty. I thank him for his honesty in listing the honorary degrees as such and for listing every school who has so honored him.
If you are going to call out Dr. Hunt, do it in a Biblical manner. I’m out of here…
Covington is a diploma mill. No way around that. Thier distance education may help you learn something, you pay for it. Pay for distance learning were credits are transferable if you are planning on ministry.
Johnny Hunt accepte unearned degrees because two mills offered them to him.
You earned your credits, worked hard, got yourself into seminary and will pay a lot for your education for a long time.
Yes, accrediting is expensive takes years, qualified structures business practises and attracting, paying and keeping qualified profs.
On your way out ask this simple question: Would you accept a doctorate from a diploma mill? Put it on your resume? Call yourself doctor because that’s what they offered you?
That’s your choice. Johnny Hunt made his. He is now the Pres of a denomination partly because SBC publications don’t see this practise as unethical. I’m sure accredited SBC seminaries aren’t impressed with this practise.
And yes, many seminaries may never be accedited, in a US economic meltdown and a more severe economic blow on the way, establishment isn’t going to happen for most. Here in Canada ACT is trying to keep some smaller schools open and course transfers acceptable by sharing resources. Some have failed, others will. Some won’t.
He was honest when questioned, it doesn’t make the practise less ethical. He’s disagreed with that conclusion.
Would you take a doctorate from Covington?
Pay them to knowing they don’t offer the course load required?
Pay them knowing only the fee and a few hours at best may be required of you? Hunt didn’t have to do a thing except say yes and show up.
Would you accept a Covington doctorate and put in on the wall beside what you have earned?
Didn’t think so.
Bene D,
I’m glad you are attempting to make my mind up for me. Your argument and conclusions are quite pretentious. Would I accept an HONORARY degree from an unaccredited school? I would evaluate the situation, but as long as the institution was a Godly institution I don’t see the problem. You are completely missing the HONORARY component of these degrees. This a a very typical practice in the States. Most of the Evangelical leaders have several. Many, including Billy Graham, use the title Dr after receiving Honorary degrees. I have never seen anyone require the title. I, and many others refer to Rev. Johnny Hunt as Dr. out of respect.
You declare the practice of accepting HONORARY degrees from unaccredited schools unethical. Under what basis is this practice unethical? What Biblical precept are they violating? Since you claim to be a Christian I will hold you to Christian ethics. Please do tell, what precept is being violated?
Dr. Hunt has been forthright about the nature of these degrees. Never has he claimed they were earned. Never has he utilized these degrees to gain position. The SBC does not require a Doctorate to be elected president. Is his resume they are listed as HONORARY.
I wonder, have you ever spoke with Dr. Hunt about these degrees? Have you interviewed the school officials who granted them? Do you have a legitimate Biblical basis for your argument?
BTW, in the US accreditation is completely voluntary. The state in which a school operates control licensing of higher education institutions. Each of the institutions you mention operate within the standards of state law. Religious institutions whose main purpose is religious training are often licensed under exempt status. The fact that these schools operate legally under state law seems to preclude you from using them in your ethical argument.
To what standard are you appealing? I will hold you to sound Biblical exegesis if you try to appeal to Scripture in your argument.
Commenter 12 has a legit Doctorate. Read him.
Quote: Hunt “holds Honorary Doctorate degrees from Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary, Covington Theological Seminary, and Tennessee Temple University.”
The Tennessee honourary was given for a commencement speech. ( a courtesy) The other two do not have doctorate programs. They hand them out for the same reasons other diploma mills do. Money.
They are not licenced, that dog doesn’t fly.
And I don’t call Billy Graham Dr. He is Rev. Graham. Earned that.
Florida Bible Institute (Trinity College)-1940 with a Bachelors in Theology.
Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL, –1943 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Anthropology.
Would he accept an honourary from a diploma mill? You tell me.
He has 20 honoury degrees and has refused at least that many more.
“Would I accept an HONORARY degree from an unaccredited school? I would evaluate the situation, but as long as the institution was a Godly institution I don’t see the problem.”
Your choice. Use them on your resume? Again your choice.
Why would you do that?
What is wrong with a respectful, thanks but no?
Especially if you are a professional minister and a legit Rev.
THE FBI went after diploma mills in the 1980’s prior to their explosion on the internet.
Oregon is leading US states attempting to clean up diploma mills. Jail time clean up.
By what standards?
Money paid for education not received.
In Johnny Hunt’s case he admits they gave them to him, presumably no money exchanged hands.
Again what is wrong with thanks but no?
I agree Gary, most countries have federal laws protecting higher education.
The US does not. The US recogizes the harm – http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/.
Dr. Al Mohler earned the right to be called Dr. Johnny Hunt has not.
The US federal government and states recognize laws are required to protect quality and the workplace.
Credibility. Ethics. Honesty. Legitimacy. Fraud. Character.
Accreditation sets standards for transfer that is reciprocated by regional (or other) agencies.
“Please do tell, what precept is being violated?”
These are diploma mills.
They operate without regard for legitimate biblical institutions.
That honourary I accept from them is fake. A lie.
Young people who respect me might be led to believe these institutions are legitimate, why would I deliberately do that knowing people could be sucked in. It would be a wilful act on my part of undermining community – like buying liquor on the black market instead of at a licenced store.
This industry (which is on the rise) undermines community educational standards, users; you say have taken legitimate courses from accredited institutions because you want a job and a higher education I assume.
Go buy yourself doctorate from one of the mills Hunt got his from, and start calling yourself Dr. Gary.
You won’t be Dr. Gary.
Why bother misrepresenting yourself?
A false honourary is still false.
Advancement? Pride? Why?
“The SBC does not require a Doctorate to be elected president.”
Agreed.
So explain to me why the SBC looks the other way and while some SBC educators are speaking up and begging the denomination to stop undermining:
“Former SBC President, Jim Henry, pads his resume with honorary doctorates in “Humane Letters” and “Sacred Laws and Letters.” Former SBC Vice Presidents Junior Hill, who nominated one of the losing candidates for SBC President this year, and Bob Pittman also pad their resumes with dubious credentials. All them come from the same diploma mill that credentialed Johnny Hunt — Covington Theological Seminary.”
The SBC doesn’t care where you get your degree?
Why bother doing the work?
Don’t you see the undermining going on here? Covington is a business operating in a state that doesn’t give a damn. The SBC doesn’t give a damn. Is this a cultural issue?
“Fake degrees are risky for buyers and consumers, says John Bear, a distance learning and diploma mills expert. “It is like putting a time bomb in your résumé. It could go off at any time, with dire consequences. The people who sell fake degrees will probably never suffer at all, but the people who buy them often suffer mightily. And — particularly if their “degree” is health-related — their clients may be seriously harmed.”
John Bear is a former FBI agent who worked to shut this multi billion practise down.
Read him.
If Rev. Hunt wishes to speak as Pres of the SBC in the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada etc. he can be recognzied as Rev. Hunt.
Education standards are protected by federal law.
His undergrad work is legit. His ordination is legit. His legit honourary is an unearned courtesy.
By what biblical standards?
Go ahead – give me the scriptures that address dishonesty, cheating, misrepresentation, disregard for federal and state law, undermining legitimate recognition, theft, respect, community ethics, character; workman that needth not be be ashamed stuff.
Hunt won’t discuss this outside the SBC inhouse organs.
You get an interview if you can. I’ve certainly quoted Johnny Hunt fairly.
His webmaster Chris discussed this starting at comment #14.
“Never has he utilized these degrees to gain position.”
Oh, okay. That’s been discussed above.
I repeat: then don’t use them, request inhouse organ writers not use them, don’t put them on your resume, ask your webmaster to take them off your websites.
Bene D,
You are not representing the facts in a completely honest fashion. CTS is licensed for operation in Georgia. They do offer Doctorates. In fact, they offer three Doctorates. From what I can tell, every degree requires course work. The fact that they give Honorary degrees does not make them a diploma mill. If you had proof that they granted degrees with no course work and only required a payment of some amount to confer a degree, then I would grant your claim. It is common practice to grant Honorary degrees in Divinity, Sacred Letters, and other disciplines even when the school does not typically offer that discipline in their earned doctorate program.
The fact is, you have no real facts. For your claim to be true they have to lie, cheat, misrepresent, etc… But again where is your proof? They even explain why they have not sought CHEA recognized accreditation.
I’m not making a case that CTS is a good academic institution, only they they are operating within the bounds of U.S. law. Each American needs to decide what their educational goals are and analyze if CTS meets those goals. In the U.S. accreditation is not mandatory nor do I feel that it should be.
The diploma mills you mention in your argument above that Mr Bear worked to close were in fact diploma mills. They operated outside the bounds of state law and granted degrees for payment. You are trying to make a guilt by association argument that just isn’t true. The fact that someone puts an honorary degree on their resume ( and specifies it as honorary) is not acting unethically. The fact that you don’t agree does not make it unethical. I say again, if you do not have credible evidence that shows a real impropriety then let this one go.
BTW, he is Rev. Hunt in the States as well. Those who call him Dr. Hunt are doing so in reverence. We understand, as he has always stated, that his Doctorates were Honorary. No one is making the case that these degrees are earned degrees.
I am certainly not putting these degrees on the academic par of degrees earned at accredited institutions. I will also add that neither is Dr. Hunt. I am simply stating that you have slandered Dr. Hunt by calling the practice unethical. You would have been better served by making an argument that the U.S. should ban this practice. You certainly have the right to disagree with the practice and even question whether it best serves the global academic community. You instead chose slander. It was you who have acted unethically!!
Gary:
“CTS is licenced for operation in Georgia.”
I’m not finding it listed in the Georgia Department of Education Charter Schools.
http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/pea_charter.aspx?PageReq=CIIAPCharterSchools
I did not find them listed in the Georgia Department of Consumer Affairs – Georgia Non Public Post Secondary Education Commission
http://consumer.georgia.gov/00/article/0,2086,5426814_39039081_38234138,00.html
I did not find them approved by the Georgia Veterans – approved post secondary schools.
Would you be kind enough to point me to their licence?
Hunt’s honourary from Covington is as you point out: Doctorate of Sacred Laws and Letters.
I agree completely with what you said about this.
However gotta run, I think it’s perfectly fair to ask about membership accreditation etc. and if I’m wrong I’ll admit it.
I looked again at the course work for Masters and Doctorate levels and ACI and ACSI. We’ll talk some more if you’d like, I’ll await the licence info from you.
Bene D,
State law allows for religious educational institutions to operate and offer religious degrees without the oversight you mention above. This is the case in just about every state in the U.S. Many schools choose to be licensed as a church/religious exempt corporation. The CTS catalog does seem to indicate that this is the case.
I live in Maryland. Maryland law provides for all educational levels to be licensed as church/religious exempt. Many primary and secondary schools also operate under these guidelines (COMAR 13a.09.09 in MD). If they offered degrees in psychology, business, literature, etc… then they would be expected to be licensed under the links you mention. It is the price we pay for in the States to provide for separation of Church and State.
Alright to put this up in the air I myself live in geogia and have met the man. If there is any question you want me to ask tell me b/c ill do it. He has great speakin skills, while what he has to say is a little weird in my mind. For all of you who like him, I propose a question when he says only babtists are chrisrtian is’nt he lying?
Ready for this?
I live a few minutes from CTS (Covington), have a pastor who graduated from there (he also has a degree from Shorter Univ.), and am researching Covington myself for the purpose of possibly enrolling. My pastor is my dearest brother in Christ and we know each other well. He believes that Covington would be a good move for me based on what I am trying to accomplish which is nothing more than to better equipped to do God’s work and serve in a larger and more knowledgeable capacity. I have obtained Covington’s catalogue and I can tell you that all certificates and degrees offered require semester hours (varying amounts according to level of education)and even dissertations. They make no claims to prepare their graduates for secular work. In fact, they state just the opposite. While I don’t believe anyone who has any knowledge of how the education system works will believe that the upper level of degrees line up with that of accredited institutions, some merit should be awarded to those investing several years and hard earned money. I could not allow myself to be called Dr. if I earned such a degree from there because the meaning poured into that term is different from the better recognized definition the world uses. That having been said, let me finish by saying that according to their catalogue, they offer NO degrees or certificates free of charge or based on life experience even thought the latter can be applied for a certain amount of credit.
The teachers are all active in their churches and/or ministries, and they work at Covington without pay.
The website and catalogue also speak of ongoing missions and mission trips involving students and alumni as well as other reports of the result of God’s work through this school. While I have yet to decide on whether to enroll or not, it would seem to me that money generated by free degrees that require little or no study, work, or involvement is not the case here.
JD: Thanks for that.
By all means ask him. He says he didn’t earn them. Moved on. As current elected head of a denomination I haven’t read him addressed the ethics of diploma mills. You can see the being discussed in Baptist magazines.
Rich:
The word ‘amateur’ is not a bad word, it’s a great word.
No one is asking or forcing me to go to a church with an unaccredited minister, or go out of my way to listen to a minister who puffs up their credentials or allows others to do so for them.
No one is forcing you too either.
You’re an adult and you get to make your own choices.
I’m not going to put you down.
You are saying you are weighing your options and trying to make an informed choice.
I’m sorry to read a minister who has done some recognized academic work and makes a living because he made a different choice is advising you to do this, but that’s between you and him.
I guess I wasn’t aware theological educational choices in Georgia are so limited you have to consider schooling from a business which spiritualizes or politicizes it’s choice for those studying for ministry not to meet national and international academic standards.
Your informed choice, your money.
You now know that thousands fall into educational traps like Covington without awareness because the advertising and sales pitch is slick.
“…some merit should be awarded to those investing several years and hard earned money. ”
Why?
“I could not allow myself to be called Dr. if I earned such a degree from there because the meaning poured into that term is different from the better recognized definition the world uses.”
You might be able to educate the people around “Dr.” Hunt. He isn’t known for stopping people from calling him Dr.
The world includes thousands and thousands of men and women who have earned their degrees, their licence as Rev. and we recognize them across borders and denominations. They got that right in seminaries and bible colleges accepted as institutions of higher learning.
God has no beef with accredidation.
http://www.counterfeitdegrees.com/
Bene,
Have you just labeled my Pastor? Is it not slightly dangerous to label someone based on such a limited amount of knowledge or info. on a person? I don’t believe you have that right as you know not his character, involvement in ministry, or most importantly, his heart.
“No one is asking or forcing me to go to a church with an unaccredited minister, or go out of my way to listen to a minister who puffs up their credentials or allows others to do so for them.
No one is forcing you too either.”
You are correct. However, I don’t require a Pastor to have the highest degree in the land to attend a church where he teaches. I believe the foremost requirement is where my God wants me to be and of that I have confirmation so I don’t need a blessing from anyone concerning that. Primary to the level of secondary education would be where a Pastor stands biblically.
“I guess I wasn’t aware theological educational choices in Georgia are so limited you have to consider schooling from a business which spiritualizes or politicizes it’s choice for those studying for ministry not to meet national and international academic standards.”
Have you personally checked out Covington’s material? Do you know their curriculum? I have found many who say it mirrors that in better known institutions that have government approved accreditation. I do not necessarily defend Covington because I am still searching. I do know that if I find that their studies are in fact biblically sound and doctrinally correct, I will give them serious consideration. I have no need or desire at this point in my life for full time college committment nor do I wish to be at the top of every list for choices of church officials. I simply would like a sound biblical education in order to better understand and relay the Gospel, it’s history, it’s texts, and it’s significance.
I see no need to deny someone of credit when accomplishing a goal of education. That credit of course, should fit the accomplishment. Perhaps the names of such degrees should be changed so as not to mirror those of other “accredited” institutions. I am not the professor here. I still know very little of these matters. I do however, believe that even though a school chooses not to be government accredited, they can provide an education that proves to be helpful to an individual according to the path they so choose.
Do you believe that? Do you believe that a basic or maybe even somewhat slightly higher, in-depth bible course can be taught and proven beneficial? Not your ordinary Wed. night bible class mind you, but more intense with various options for legitimate study?
Is it possible to remove some of the academia and just teach scripture, Jewish and/or Hebrew history, Christian heritage, basic hermaneutics, eschatology, and apologetics?
Thank you for informing me that you won’t put me down. You know, some things are better left unsaid.
Rich:
Voice tone is lost online. Sigh.
I said it’s between you and your pastor and I’m commending you for researching, checking, and thinking things through.
I’ve taken unaccredited courses, they don’t wind up on my resume.
I’ve taken accedited courses by long distance learning while working.
They go on the resume.
This post questions the ethics of accepting honourary degrees from diploma mills.
I’ve read the Covington material, you can get the same thing at accredited institutions if you want it. Either way it’s your life, your money, your choices.
We differ in a minor point I think.
“I do however, believe that even though a school chooses not to be government accredited, they can provide an education that proves to be helpful to an individual according to the path they so choose. Do you believe that?”
Each person is unique, and universities and seminaries weigh standards, life circumstance etc. You still make up the course work, but where I live depending on what you’ve accomplished, you might be admitted as a mature student.
You won’t get course credit for study at an institution that doesn’t meet standards.
Nor should you.
Covington has chosen to opt out, to tell the rest of academia to basically go to hell. You obviously get that and I’m hearing you say you’re okay with that, their church will employ you, end of story.
I have to ask myself this.
If Covington offers such great curriculum, why are they not paying their teachers? Why, given the money they take in have they not applied for accreditation so grads don’t have to start over again if they chose a career path in ministry?
Of course they are delighted to take your money.
Where you and I are different is how big that red flag is for each of us.
An education should help teach us to learn. Do you believe that?
Sometimes a paid for course can be for fun and exploration. Still doesn’t belong on the resume.
It is your money, your life, your choices.
If you chose to go into IT, you aren’t going to chose a diploma mill. If you chose to be a teacher, you’ll go to university and teachers college. If you chose ministry, the SBC has six seminaries that will prepare you for the necessary licencing to hatch, match and dispatch. Liberty U is independent Baptist. ORU is independent. Regent U.
They chose to line up with community educational standards, not undermine them. Their students can transfer without huge financial, course credit and time losses.
A friend of mine wants to do some serious theological study but not go into ministry; they have a life, a job and this pursuit is for them.
An opportunity for higher education was not possible when they were starting out. Like you they are looking at both accredited and unaccredited options.
If they chose an accredited path, they will have to take some make up courses to learn ‘how to.’ If they study for the pleasure of studying, no make up work. Like you they know the difference and why institutions of higher learning have standards. Their choice, their money, their life, their decision.
BD,
I can appreciate your concern about this issue and perhaps we don’t disagree as much as it may seem. I do believe a Christian should be motivated to respond to what is or may seem to be an open sin. It can and does cast a shadow on the organization as well as the Christian faith. It does appear as if the church can be it’s own worst enemy at times.
I do understand the difference between learning for fun and learning for the sake of advancement. I do believe learning should teach us to learn. Far too often, I learn by mistake. My situation IS different. I do not seek this education to advance my career within the church but rather to put it to use wherever I can, help those in need, and teach those willing to learn what little I know.
My Pastor does have degrees from other accredited schools as I mentioned but he obtained the Covington degree long ago and prior to attending the others. He understands what his degree means. He is aware that the school isn’t accredited. I don’t think he realized that at the time he first attended. I told him of my desire to get more in-depth knowledge of scripture to help me personally and he is of the opinion that if that’s all I want then Covington would be fine. I am still looking at other schools.
Also, please consider as you use this blog to seek resolution to situations within the church that you don’t cause any. The cursing is definitely not necessary and may only cause others to scoff at us even more. Don’t they have enough material for that as it is?
Thanks.
You’re right Rich. I didn’t need to curse, I could have used Covington’s own words.
“We have not nor will we seek governmental acceptance, accreditation, or funding for the effectiveness of our programs.”
Three different issues, three messages.
I’ve appreciated your candor and wish you well as you pursue your goals – go under the mercy.
I work for a long established (est. 1802 by Catholic Church) Canadian university and we hand out about 5 or 6 honouary PHDs a year to big supporters, public figures, etc. and most of them regularly use the term Dr. afterwards.
The US accreditation system is a problem to start with; you can go to a legitimate DOE school and still be looked at sideways when you try to transfer credits to a regional school and then throw in a bunch of “independent religious ” schools and diploma mills and it’s just a mess. And the inference that distance education is somehow substandard is part of the continued elitism in modern academia.
My family has been (non-allied) Baptists for generations so firstly let me explain a pillar of our faith. Each church is largely independent when it comes to pulpit decisions and choose their own pastors. So there will be a wide range of creditials; from very little to 2 yrs at a local (often only denominationally recognized) Bible College to traditional 4 year seminaries; there will be a lot of these types of schools who may or may not be accredited and have no intention to be. Many of these more fundimentalist schools claim only God’s authority.
I quess what I’m saying is regardless of whether Convington is or is not, many independent evangelical pastor’s parchment may be questionable, outside their own church.
Dr. Hunt and several of the other pastors who have been exposed as having questionable degrees may well have an issue if they failed to disclose the nature of their school(s) to the pulpit committees during the hiring/investigation process, just as any CEO or other employee would.
As long as the congregation/church is satisfied, the issue will only really of interest to those on the outside.
I am completely lacking the understanding as to why Christians of any nominations would attack Dr. Johnny M. Hunt, but with your attacks and vicious rhetoric’s you elevate this true man of God who as presented both cheeks to you on many occasions. He’s really in great company all the prophets throughout history suffered attacks, John the Baptist was beheaded and the Son of God crucified!
By men that were like exactly like you men who wanted to know by what authorities. I am slightly more combative then you two Canadian Vipers and I am just learning how to turn the other cheek, and I don’t hide my name behind some cute name (Bene Diction) this is my real name J.C.Viger and I have many years of correspondence with Pastor Johnny Hunt and he with the help of God take lost soil souls and shows them how to experience the love of God.
So find someone else to slander and put on your best Pharisees suit on and drape yourself with no hope our commitment to anything but to yourself indulgence in seeding lies and hatred. You can say “bonjour” with ease try to get on your knees and ask God for forgiveness you monster!
J.C.Viger we all pray for you before you reach the point of no rescue
JC:
You aren’t following this are you?
Did you mean denomination as opposed to nomination?
The discussion is diploma mills and honouary degrees from unaccredited institutions.
It addresses practice, not character or calling.
If you have new information to provide, then provide it.
Mr. Hunt acknowledges the facts, responded, as did his employee.
You might want to read the BDBO site policy. Play nice.
Than you for your prayers.
This reminds me of the famous checker speech by former President Nixon then Vice President. Anyone who knows Pastor Johnny Hunt knows that it’s God words that he trying to spread not that he recieved a degree from some university. If you would have been there in the early years and saw what he took over and what it became of a man who the Holy Spirit besieged you would understand that Pastor Johnny Hunt does not go around insisting that he be addressed as Dr. Hunt, he goes around talking anout what Jesus did on Cavalry. As to his resume you are handling this as if he was looking for some glamourus job somewhere.
He lives the life of a Christian determine to fill heaven with souls that may not have heard the good news. So by using your influence and casting dark shadows on such a man you are than in direct confrontation with what God wishes the worls to know “Agape” and “Compassion” and “Mercy”. Those who attend certain stature know full well that they will come under attack, it is very unfortunate that it as to come who claim to be emulating Jesus.
I challenge you to approach Pastor Johnny Hunt and see for yourself the wonderful man of God he truly his and see the importance he attach’s to this diplomat that is feature on your blog!If I offended you, please forgive me, and if you vist http://www.fbcw.org and listen with your heart you’ll hear biblical truth and if you observe with the eyes of a Christians you’ll see lives being change every week. On any given Sunday people who had no hope or now basking in the love and mercy of Jesus Christ the Son of God!That’s because of the presence of the Holy Spirit!
So in ending this posting I will remove from my thoughts and my heart any ill feeling toward your point of view and honestly will pray for you’ll pastor Johnny would want me too and Jesus would demand it!
Sincerely
J.C.Viger
“…you would understand that Pastor Johnny Hunt does not go around insisting that he be addressed as Dr. Hunt, he goes around talking about what Jesus did on Cavalry. As to his resume you are handling this as if he was looking for some glamorous job somewhere.”
While Johnny Hunt never verbally insisted, he hasn’t stopped anyone who used Dr. be they in-house media, ministers etc. He admits that.
As for a glamourous job, I doubt being elected president of the SBC is glamorous but that is where he wound up.
Hunt isn’t the first elected exec in the SBC to have had diploma mills hand him a fake degree, he has earned undergrad degrees and an honourary from an accredited institution. While some running and working in SBC academia have spoken up, most people don’t know, don’t see this as an ethical and denominational issue.
If my memory serves me well it’s about Jesus Christ the Son of God who died for the sins of the world, and this is what matters. As Pastor Johnny Hunt delivering the word of God from the pulpit I see very few that can measure in any denomination!
So as a christian academic you find fault in someone who accepted these honorary degrees, well throughout time theologists and academia have done so little to bring the good news to those who had no hope but took a great deal of time to inscript their names in history, for their egos demanded their foot print to be instilled in history.
I would like to challenge this idea that your intelectual prouesses and your academic repertoire is for the service of God, but again we who feel differently about spititual valor. You who point the judging finger of guilt toward anyone who approaches your select little group of pseudo christian.
I let time go bye and I observed that very few have any interest in what you have to say, but I took the time to let you know how I feel. In these difficult time when a spiritual warfare is going on for the souls of so many, who do you serve?
Best Regards
J.C.Viger we continue to pray for you, there’s miracles that happens everyday !!!
JC:
It is about Jesus Christ, born lived crucified and raised.
You aren’t going to get any debate about Him.
I’m not an academic JC.
Doesn’t change the ethics of diploma mills or the reality Christians are targeted and use them.
“A lie that is left unchallenged, is perceived and believed as the truth.”
When you get caught lying, it is to late. Many have been caught up in this and now are involved in a massive coverup scheme within this denomination.
There is no excuse for deception in a church. A man may not need a degree, but he sure needs to be right with GOD.
And I too see many that are not right with GOD and for them to tell anyone what they think as a human about an eternal subject, especially the institutionalized Baptist and there followers is downright hypocritical. Many follow the wrong man though, thinking he(the preacher) or a certain church membership is going to get him/her into heaven.
These fakes will one day has a higher judge to answer to and that is when justice and vengeance will be repaid to these deceivers – I think.
But they think they do nothing wrong. Oh well. Keep passing the plate and filling it up for them and their high dollar callings.
It now is becoming harder to tell between a Wheat and a Tare from our pulpits.
These boys are getting real good at it. Just look at what happened to Mike Everson. He tried the DR route until he was caught red handed. The GBC posted he graduated from 3 institutions or colleges 16 months ago( In the January 17th 2008 edition page 3) and we just found out in the May 21st 2009 edition of the propaganda tool, on Page 3 lower bottom corrections corner, that too was a bald face lie told to the readers of the Georgia based Baptist newspaper The Christian Index by Gerald Harris and the GBC Chairman / Publisher Robert White.
All these boys are backscratching buddies!
But Mike Everson, a former Chairman of the Executive Committee, was exposed earlier for much more deception at his former church Prays Mill Baptist, so no one is really surprised.
It’s so very unfortunate that you want to continue to attack a man of God who preaches the word of God with the greatest of humility.As I read your comments I see that it is the the SBC that you have a problem with. You are probably a Roman Catholic and you have a history of deception in your luggage. You are probably looking at the http://www.fbcw.org site and try to figure out how many of them were Catholic (Roman) before the word of God drew them to Churches that actually made a commitment to teach the word of God.
But assuming that you are a Canadian in a country that performs as many abortions as they are births, were needles are distributated in paks by government and dogooders, and where Catholic Churches lay empty , one would wonder what you are doing about bringing these people back into the family of God?
Lies you say…about the fact that most Canadians have no believe system of any kind, and the Gospel is never heard anywhere, you who accuses is that what God as put in your heart. What did you say when the government of Canada force all studying to be medical doctors that they would have to perform abortions to get their diplomas, because the law in Canada demands abortion at will, what did you blog about that.
When Cardinal Turcotte gave special permission to have a Catholic priest admitted homosexual and admitted prostitute the right to run for an election in the province of Quebec in a seperatist party that as for a leader the former head of the Communist Party of Canada what did you blog my brother?
I see now that your voice echoes into the dark abyss of Canadian nothingness. Attacking a man who never once said follow me but listen to what God says/ Oui je croit que c’est le temps qu’ont vous silence, parceque la noirceur qui habite dans votre coeur est peut etre contagieux.
J.C.Viger
JC:
I’ll try to clear up a few misconceptions for you.
Personally no, I’m not Catholic, I have Catholics in my family.
I probably don’t have as many issues with Roman Catholic doctrine and practise as you might. The Quiet Revolution broke hold of the church on some of Canada was broken somewhat and I think that is a good thing.
I don’t know where you got your abortion stats, or drug treatment stats, you decide what you want to believe.
I don’t know where you got the idea OB/GYN is a bad thing to learn to become a physician, or that it is a bad thing to have an abortion performed by a licenced physican.
Med students aren’t forced to perform an abortion to be licenced. As for handing out needles most provinces have needle exchange programs for obvious reasons, I’m not sure if you are referring to BC’s safe injection program.
You been reading Lifesite and WND? I’d take what an American lobby group says with a grain of salt. (MSfC)
I assume you are speaking about Fr. Gravel – QP elections. I don’t know if I blogged about him or not, you are welcome to do a search.
Yes, I have issues with the SBC leadership. I don’t agree with moving abusers around and not holding them accountable. I don’t agree with the CR and how people were treated. The need for SBC churches in Canada is questionable, our Baptist communities are vibrant.
Your French is quite good, however did you mean ‘crois’ instead of croit and ‘qu’on’ instead of qu’ont?
Johnny Hunt has two honourary diploma mill doctorates JC. He took them, he’s kept them. That fact hasn’t changed since you were here last.
The whole Southern Baptist Group is full of these FAKE Dr degreed folks.
Deception is very much alive and growing within The S B C about as fast as our Southern Kudzu..they keep thriving even – especially in the heat because they cover each others “roots”!
I see that in true Canadian fashion you did not post the last article because the truth was actually more than your Canadian mind set can handle.
You live in the darkness and Satan is who you serve….
JC:
Which last article?
I doubt you’d be happy if I turned your statement toward you as in: have you noticed what is going on with Crossroads Christian Communications?
Help me out, tell me what article and I’ll post it.
Johnny Hunt has disclosed the fact that his doctorates are honorary. However, he doesn’t correct anyone when they introduce him as Dr. Hunt. Others before Hunt who have used the title of Dr. without having earned an actual doctorate from a regionally accredited school include Adrian Rogers, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Chuck Swindoll. Then, there are those who hold earned “doctorates” from schools that are not regionally accredited. Herb Reavis allows himself to be called Dr. but he does not have a doctorate from a regionally accredited school. Charles Stanley, Jerry Vines, John Phillips, O.S. Hawkins and many more have degrees from Luther Rice. While Luther Rice is accredited by TRACS it is not regionally accredited. Therefore, Luther Rice should not be placed on the same academic level as a regionally accredited seminary. The Lousiana Baptist University is another popular school that is not regionally accredited. I agree with the author of this blog that when preachers use the title Dr. when they have not earned a regionally accredited degree they are wrong. What purpose does it serve to put Dr. in front of your name when you don’t have a doctorate that is recognized by a regional accrediting agency? I think we all know the answer to that question. I attended a Southern Baptists of Texas Evangelism Conference in Euless, TX a few years ago. I was very disturbed to hear the announcer introducing Johnny Hunt, Herb Reavis and others as Dr. It is a lie.