Johnny Hunt, pastor of a Georgia mega-church was elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention on first ballot this week.
It appears he has two ‘degrees’ that have come from diploma mills, which is not going to help the credibility of the battered Southern Baptists.
Ethics Daily has the details. The article gives some examples of times Hunt has been introduced with these ‘degrees’ without question or correction.
Johnny Hunt, pastor of First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Ga., identifies himself with the title “Dr.” and lists two accredited educational institutions on his personal Web site from which he did not receive a doctorate. Yet he is often identified publicly as having degrees—degrees that come from two diploma mills.
On his personal Web site, It’s A New Day Ministries, the “internet home of the preaching ministry of Dr. Johnny Hunt,” his educational credentials are Gardner-Webb College and the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. No reference is made to the terminal or honorary degree which affords him the prestigious title of “Dr. Johnny Hunt.”
When Hunt is named in conference programs, he is listed as having degrees from schools other than those on his Web site. Where I come from passing yourself off as accredited when you aren’t, giving yourself academic luster without doing the work is called lying, fake credentials speak to ego and pride and the bible has a fair bit to say about that. It will be interesting to see what Hunt has to say for himself.
Published 5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Ego and Pride? HA! You got the wrong guy pegged for that. You may want to find another soapbox to stand on.
Joe, no soapbox.
Help me understand why fake degrees are acceptable for the head of a major protestant denomination.
Help me understand why anyone would use them.
They aren’t real, so what are they about?
Why don’t you call and ask. In fact…
You can call him Dr.
I just call him pastor
tell me what it is
that you haters are after?
You findin’ a new way
to attack another man?
Attackin’ his integrity?
Better find another man
Maybe they don’t list it
and you find it appalling
I ain’t worried about that paper
Cuz it’s more about his Calling!
You can strip away the titles
Just take ‘em if you want
Get back to just callin’ him
plain old Johnny Hunt
But I know that wouldn’t phase him
He’d still keep his focus locked
Do more that all the “Doctors”
to share Jesus on the block
Put missionaries Out
Around the world to spread the Word
A little squabble over paper, man?
Don’t you find it quite absurd?
Has anybody called him?
Has anybody asked?
Or do people just jump up
at the chance just to attack?
Take time to clarify it, homie,
At least give it a try
How you pullin’ out that sawdust
with that plank up in your eye?
I ain’t sayin’ that integrity
shouldn’t be up in the light
But if you got a question
He got the digits at his site
So you can use your Sprint,
AT&T or your Verizon
Call & ask him straight
That’s all that I’m advisin’
Before you say it’s pride
& think this man is braggin’
GET ON THE PHONE AND ASK HIM, BRO
& off the hate bandwagon.
___________________________
I know your stand…but have you asked the man yet or are you just going to keep asking other people who have not asked him? Why not go to the man himself? Speculation is ridiculous.
Bienvenue Joe!
That’s a fun poem.
We don’t have AT & T, I don’t use Verizon Canada and I can’t afford to call Georgia, but thank you for the invite.
Maybe you or one of my readers can afford that call.
Would they get a straight answer?
I’m asking why it’s okay to use doctor when you haven’t earned the doctorate(s).
If you or I did that, we’d be fired on the spot, and rightfully so.
This isn’t about his calling, it’s about lying.
You aren’t saying he didn’t have a choice.
Telling me I’m hateful, have a plank in my eye is not an answer.
I’m asking credible questions about fake degrees.
I’m asking why someone in his position would represent himself or permit himself to be represented with fake doctorates.
What reason does Mr. Hunt have for using fake degrees Joe?
Why?
When you figure it out, let me know Joe.
Yeah…I’m going to ask the question BEFORE I accuse. That’s a new concept to a lot of people. Don’t you think it’s odd that SUDDENLY this becomes an issue when he gets elected? If it was so important, where was this question before the election?
FYI - If I ever hear anything about you…I will email you first before I pick up the stone. Even then…I like to practice a little something called forgiveness. Freely I’ve been given so freely I give.
By the way…you can use T-mobile or anyone else you have to call him. OH - email is free and you can email him at the church if you are interested in the truth.
Oh yeah…that wasn’t a poem…it was a rap.
Until you get the word from his mouth, I’m outta here.
-Crayzee Joe
I have emailed.
If I get a response I’ll post it.
“Don’t you think it’s odd that SUDDENLY this becomes an issue when he gets elected?”
Fair question.
What is sudden about it?
Johnny Hunt is the new president of an international organization, the question makes complete sense.
We don’t know if it has been asked before, maybe it has.
Do you know?
What is the answer?
Why?
Lying is serious.
Johnny Hunt, President of The Southern Baptist Convention has represented himself with degrees from diploma mills.
That is fact.
He is no longer just a local pastor, he got himself elected into international notice.
Like I said, bonjour.
Oh. Joe:
While you are bouncing around the web with your rap, perhaps you can tell the Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists why it is okay for the President of their convention to hold fake doctorates from diploma mills.
And while you’re at it, perhaps you can explain to all international affiliates, and approximately 10 thousand SBC missionaries - some of whom put their life on the line - why it is okay for the President of their denomination to claim Jesus Christ as Lord and lie about his academic achievements.
When you are done with that, would you care to explain to a couple of million sincere US Southern Baptists, many who hold hard earned real degrees from accredited institutions why it is okay for their new convention president to claim fake doctorates from diploma mills.
Merci.
I never said it’s okay to lie. If I did, please show me my error and I will admit it. I’m definitely no perfect guy. I don’t think it’s okay to lie. Never said that. Just said that before we start throwing stones we need to ask the accused instead of asking everyone else besides the accused. Don’t you think Jesus would have gone to Johnny first? I do.
Gotta go to work now. Peace!
I get the sense from everything you’ve written you care deeply for Johnny Hunt, he sounds like a great guy with serious decisions to make.
He has fake degrees from diploma mills.
He is not the first to wind up on the SBC executive to do so.
Mainstream Baptist:
http://mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com/2008/06/on-credible-credentials.html
“Former SBC President, Jim Henry, pads his resume with honorary doctorates in “Humane Letters” and “Sacred Laws and Letters.” Former SBC Vice Presidents Junior Hill, who nominated one of the losing candidates for SBC President this year, and Bob Pittman also pad their resumes with dubious credentials. All them come from the same diploma mill that credentialed Johnny Hunt — Covington Theological Seminary.”
Thank you.
I asked why and can fully appreciate you don’t know the answer any more than I do.
I am with you my friend…this just seems very odd to me. It has a very shady feel to it. Being a Southern Baptist living in the major “Bible Belt” city (Nashville), I have a particular interest in this issue. I tried to look up Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary online and could only find a physical address. There doesn’t seem to be a website. I also looked at Covington Theological Seminary and found >this explanation in response to questions about the schools accreditation. I understand very well the desire to not conform to the standards of the world in some things. But…in this case…I can’t really understand why you wouldn’t become accredited through ATS. At lease there seems to be some accountability through ACI.
Nevertheless, the issue is claiming degrees that may not be recognized as “legit” doctoral degrees. If the argument is that its not about degrees and that the degrees do not make the man, I would wholeheartedly agree. However, if that is the case, then why claim them? Why place Dr. in front of your name if they aren’t legit or recognized by accreditation associations? Wouldn’t it be better to just accept the degrees kindly and yet not using the Dr. name. After all, it doesn’t define who you are so it shouldn’t be that big of a deal. As you mentioned, the issue is not necessarily the degree. The issue is lying and fraud. And yet the real heart of the matter is pride.
This gives me many concerns in regards to his election.
Immanuel can be found here.
http://www.immanuelseminaryintl.org/
Typos and all. As you point out neither are accedited under ATS. One of the accediting outfits listed at Covington was charged with fraud in Missouri (?) renamed and relocated.
Mr. Hunt has another honourary degree listed in a speaker bio for a conference - Tennessee Temple U. (AABC, TRACS) and is a member in good standing with CHEA.
Was this granted?
http://www.southwide.com/speakers.php
When?
Would TTU give out an honourary if they were aware the recepient was using fake degrees?
In many cases, people get honorary doctorates for speaking at commencement ceremonies; in many cases, the schools in question don’t have any doctoral programs. For instance, I recall my Ph.D. graduation from Kent State, where the director of the Cleveland Symphony got an honorary doctorate as part of being the commencement speaker.
Those honorary degrees aren’t fake per se, but aren’t supposed to be used to burnish a resume or use the Dr. title in a professional setting. Hunt’s using bad form at minimum in using those honorary degrees to call himself Dr. Hunt.
As per the “diploma mills”, some of them are just interested in doing some basic Bible schooling and have no pretense that the course would transfer to a “real” college or that any degree from then would be useful outside of a church setting; my dad took some classes from one such Bible college in Michigan. That being said, you seem to have found a somewhat shady one who might deserve the title.
The SBC ethics department may be headed up by his niece Helen; if you want to find ethics in the SBC headquarters, you can go to Helen Hunt for it ;-).
When you have a valid undergrad degree and a valid masters degree from an accredited college, university or seminary, why represent yourself with honourary fake (fake honourary) doctorates from diploma mills?
The Temple U honourary may or not be be a bonifide honourary - but the other two?
Hardly some spare time book learning at an out of the way bible school.
Johnny Hunt got his resume burnished; that is not just shady or bad form.
It’s a spit in the eye to you and every member of the SBC who earned their academic credentials.
Most of us call it lying.
I’d still like to know what Rev. Hunt is going to do about it.
So everyone can know, the bio on Johnny Hunt’s website has been updated and mentions his honorary doctorates. I personally updated the bio and the fact that they were not there to begin with had nothing to do with a cover up or trying to “lie.” It was clearly an oversight and I apologize for all of you who were led astray. Regardless of whether you like Johnny or not, he was not elected President of the SBC because of the “Dr.” before his name.
Bene D -
The record has to be set straight. Dr. Hunt has never lied about his education or doctored/padded his resume has he has been accused. The website http://www.itsanewdayonline.com failed to mention his honorary degrees not be deceitful or inflate the person of Johnny Hunt. It was simply an error of omission that I am personally responsible. Many individuals in the blogosphere (yourself included) have used a very brief bio on his web page (which for the record he does not personally maintain) as a full resume. If you would like a full copy of his resume that is sent out to churches he will be speaking at then please feel free to contact me and I will gladly forward it to you.
You, along with others have quoted DailyEthics.com in your post and you are responsible for what you post. This site (and the author) have demonstrated in their post about Johnny Hunt that they have issues with him. The author has a leaning towards a President like Frank Page (a man I had no issue with), and comes across as bitter that his candidate did not win (I am not familiar with which candidate he supported).
He also mentions Steve Flockhart and his dismissal from FBC West Palm because of his “diploma mill” degrees. This is a factual error because it fails to mention the entire story. In Steve Flockhart’s resume he listed 3 schools and 3 degrees listed. FBC West Palm failed to verify what schools went with what degrees and it is very unclear whether or not Flockhart was purposefully being deceptive or dishonest. His dismissal was a result of him lying when comforted about what degrees came from what schools (a sin he has confessed and I believe meets the criteria for biblical repentance). I agree that FBC West Palm had every right and exercised that right properly in dismissing Steve Flockhart but it is unfair to lump his situation and Dr. Hunt into the same category.
DailyEthics.com also mentions several programs on which Hunt spoke and his bio referenced these degrees:
For example, the February 2007 evangelism conference program of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention said, “Hunt is a graduate of Gardner-Webb College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary.”
The October 2007 Southwide Annual Conference program said Hunt “holds Honorary Doctorate degrees from Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary, Covington Theological Seminary, and Tennessee Temple University.”
The February 2008 annual pastors’ conference of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville program said Hunt “has received a Doctorate of Divinity from Immanual [sic] Baptist Theological Seminary and a Doctorate of Sacred Laws and Letters from Covington Theological Seminary.”
When Georgia Baptist Convention editor Gerald Harris wrote about Hunt’s nomination, he included a paragraph about Hunt’s education: “Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary in Sharpsburg, south of Atlanta, awarded him an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree and Covington Theological Seminary in Rossville honored him with a Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters degree.”
So where is the deceit, lying or coverup? We can debate the use of “Dr.” before ones name if it is only an honorary doctorate on another day. As far as I am aware their are no professional/ethical guidelines that state on way or the other is right. My wife worked in the field of medicine for almost 10 years as and medical assistant. Most, if not all, of the Doctors she worked for thought that only “medical” Doctors had earned the right to use Dr. before their name (a view that I do not share).
I personally know Dr. Hunt and have worked for his website and resource ministry for the past 10 years and I know him to be a man of integrity. In no way shape or form has he ever attempted to deceive anyone or lie about his educational credentials, and it is a shame that he is having to endure this character assassination by individuals that do not know him and are trying to dig up whatever they can to attempt to bring him shame and the SBC shame.
I am under the firm conviction that the SBC can be saved but only if it is willing to unite and join the fight together. I have to say I have been ashamed to call myself a baptist after what has taken place over the past decade. The denomination has been know for what we are against (instead of what we are for), which leaders have fallen morally (instead of which leaders are faithful and strong), and the outside world watches us turn and attack one another when I don’t really think they care about a Dr before someone’s name.
I can understand the argument of whether or not someone with an honorary degree should use whatever title comes with that degree. I do not think it is right to accuse a man of lying or tarnishing his character because he choose to do so.
Goodnight!
It’s all very strange. I mean, looking at the websites of these “seminaries” (thanks for the Immanuel link), it just seems a little odd that neither of those schools have sought out accreditation through a recognized accrediting association. I understand the argument about not conforming to the world’s standards. However, a statement of that sort would assume a compromise of some sorts. What kind of compromise is made by seeking accreditation through a legit agency? In fact, wouldn’t it make more sense to seek out this type of accreditation because it may open up more doors of influence without compromising the gospel one bit? It just seems silly.
As far as convention presidents are concerned, Hunt’s election and presidency seems to carry the same flavor as Bobby Welch. Both seem to represent the old guard of the SBC. When the Tennessean (Nashville newspaper) interviewed Hunt about the change that needs to take place in the SBC, he mentioned “radical” leadership and being cheerleaders for people so that they feel good and part of a winning team. It sounds like the same ole’ thing to me (maybe aside from our recent president Page). I’m anticipating another million man, cross country campaign. Warm up the bus.
Like or dislike isn’t the topic or the issue here.
“A half truth is a whole lie.” - Yiddish Proverb
“If you would like a full copy of his resume that is sent out to churches he will be speaking at then please feel free to contact me and I will gladly forward it to you.”
Kind of you, I don’t need it thanks - why don’t you send it to the Canadian Southern Baptist headquarters, they are the ones that have to deal with the shame of their new president using fake degrees.
Covington and Immanuel are diploma mills.
No one here said there was a cover up.
I’m saying representing yourself with degrees from diploma mills is lying.
Calling Immanuel and Covington degrees ‘honourary’ doesn’t change anything.
Saying this is just how business is done in Georgia, doesn’t make fake credentials real.
“For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.” - Richard Clopton
Covington is an mutation of a company (ACI) charged with fraud and kicked out of Missouri.
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm3.html
From Covington: The accreditation we currently hold is with ACI.
Fake and fraudulant accreditation.
Immanuel: Georgia Federation of Christian Colleges and Christian Universities–a Division of the American Federation of Christian Colleges and Schools; Unrecognized
GFofCC&CC; Fake
http://www.degree.net/guides/non-gaap_listings.html
Repeating lies over and over do not make them true.
Others repeating a lie does not make it true.
You just answered Joe’s question.
You just said you’ve communicated for Johnny Hunt for 10 years - you knew about Mr. Hunt’s speaker bios, Immanuel and Covington and you admit you willingly helped misrepresent your boss.
You just said you are perpetuating an inability to uphold basic standards by adding the diploma mills to your bosses website.
You’ve just said you have willfully ascribed, sanctioned, designated these diploma mills and fake degrees, and have chosen or been told to pass them off now as honourary.
The subject remains diploma mills, fake degrees, how adults choose to use them and why.
“Man can certainly keep on lying… but he cannot make truth falsehood. He can certainly rebel… but he can accomplish nothing which abolishes the choice of God.” - Karl Barth
“In no way shape or form has he ever attempted to deceive anyone or lie about his educational credentials…”
Sad.
So this is supposed to get changed to miscommunication, your oversight.
No.
Real life doesn’t work this way.
Lies are by commission or omission.
I do not see the h.c. after those degrees, Chris.
honoris causa - for the sake of honour
Bonsour, salu.
Bene D-
It is obvious you have no desire in discovering truth just tearing down the man.
What was listed on the website was a brief bio and has been ashamedly attributed as being resume. For the record he did not apply for the position of SBC President.
You stated: “You just said you’ve communicated for Johnny Hunt for 10 years - you knew about Mr. Hunt’s speaker bios, Immanuel and Covington and you admit you willingly helped misrepresent your boss.”
and
“You’ve just said you have willfully ascribed, sanctioned, designated these diploma mills and fake degrees, and have chosen or been told to pass them off now as honourary.
How have I “willingly” misrepresented him? There was no intention to deceive anyone in any manner. I choose to mention on the website his honorary degrees to address the small minority of individuals that were having issue. I am not trying to pass them off honorary, they are honorary and always have been. Hunt was never trying to get a “fake” degree but as a former high school drop out he has been on a personal pursuit of knowledge which included attending both accredited and unaccredited institutions.
You also stated: “You just said you are perpetuating an inability to uphold basic standards by adding the diploma mills to your bosses website.”
Who’s standards? Please reference a professional or acceptable source when making such a position. I even agreed in my earlier post that the argument is valid on whether or not to use “Dr.” when one has received and honorary doctorate, but I have not found a clear cut answer. Mostly just people with earned doctorates upset about someone using it when it was not earned. That hardly stands as the answer.
You also stated: “The subject remains diploma mills, fake degrees, how adults choose to use them and why.”
Seriously? While that is the title of your post it seems you are more interested in label Johnny Hunt a liar (please notice how I did not use Dr., I didn’t want to cause you any more heartache). His website bio does not mention the fact that he has grandkids. Does that mean they don’t exist or he is lying about them? How did he lie? And I hope you have more than just his bio. He has never claimed his doctorates where earned or even implied that they were.
Webster’s dictionary defines “lie” this way:
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
1. There was no untrue statement or intent to deceive, 2. no one was trying to create any impression.
The thing is, if anyone was that hung up on the issue they could have simply asked Hunt. The fact that he has honorary degrees is public knowledge, the reason that anyone refers to him as Dr. Hunt is out of honor. Another blogger mentioned that Hunt’s degrees would not be excepted at an institution for a teaching position. Fine, Hunt is not trying to get a teaching position, he is trying to lead his local church and he has done such an excellent job that his peers choose him to lead the SBC.
I think its rather ironic that the only people picking up this story our bloggers (with the exception of one that has a small editorial in the Washington Post, which is the same editor of DailyEthics.com and I addressed him earlier) and they constantly mention the “fundamentalist” camp that they accuse Hunt of being in. I wish they would be honest and say that they have put Hunt under the microscope because they wanted another candidate to win. I know that won’t happen but a man can dream.
Thanks for your time.
Hi Chris, fair questions and reasonable discussion.
I’m glad you came back.
I don’t know Johnny Hunt, I’m not in the US, I’m not SBC, this isn’t personal.
Nor is this just your local pastor anymore.:^)
Since you object so strongly to the post title, tell me what you’d like instead.
Let’s try this.
Johnny Hunt has been elected by the membership to serve as president.
He was duly nominated, duly ran and was duly elected.
His diploma mill use and the doctorates validity are now the concern of the worldwide membership of the SBC.
1) “How have I “willingly” misrepresented him? There was no intention to deceive anyone in any manner. I choose to mention on the website his honorary degrees to address the small minority of individuals that were having issue. I am not trying to pass them off honorary, they are honorary and always have been.”
Okay.
You’ve put degrees from the diploma mills on his website now.
You can’t honestly put h.c. behind them.
How can you even call them honourary?
Because the diploma mills do?
They aren’t real.
You believing they are honourary has nothing to do with the reality of fake accreditation.
He didn’t need them to be elected to what is now an international position, did he?
Johnny Hunt is facing questions about the validity of his use of diploma mills.
No one is naive, a retired FBI agent who spent his life investigating fraud stated in 2005 there were approximately 500 diploma mills in the US, thousands across the world.
2) Who’s standards? Please reference a professional or acceptable source when making such a position.
Is the US Dept of Education acceptable to you?
State attorney offices?
Better Business Bureau?
ATS?
Doctorates from Immanuel and Covington are not legitimate.
Other denominations and their educational institutions respect the US Dept. of Education.
The US Dept. of Education doesn’t recognize Immanuel and Covington.
Lies. Meaningless. No value. Fake. Fraud.
http://www.ed.gov/students/prep/college/diplomamills/diploma-mills.html#defined
I don’t know if Johnny Hunt bought them or was paid to take them.
I’m hearing you say he didn’t do the few few hours ‘work’ to get them, since you recognize them as honourary.
I recognize his accredited degrees.
Good for him, he can honour integrity, value and credibility in education.
He probably doesn’t need them either to be elected president of the SBC, but they are recognized around the world, by our governments, denominations and institutions as earned and valid.
2) “You also stated: “The subject remains diploma mills, fake degrees, how adults choose to use them and why.”
Seriously? While that is the title of your post it seems you are more interested in label Johnny Hunt a liar (please notice how I did not use Dr., I didn’t want to cause you any more heartache).”
As a follower of Jesus Christ I suppose you could call this heartache.
Sorrow, discouragement, mistrust, shame.
You are saying it’s perfectly okay in your state, your denominational culture to contravene US educational standards.
Act, accept contrary, to academic standards required of others in your denomination.
Others using diploma mills in the SBC have been called on the carpet.
You brought that up, I didn’t.
If this was an elected Catholic, Methodist, United, Baptist (etc.) denominational position these questions would be raised.
Denominations address this issue institutionally.
Ethics and morals matter individually and institutionally.
Doctrinal standards are important, but academic standards aren’t?
When Johnny Hunt crosses state or international borders he can be rightly introduced as SBC President. Calling him Dr. furthers the reality diploma mills are set up with the intent to deceive.
3) “His website bio does not mention the fact that he has grandkids. Does that mean they don’t exist or he is lying about them?”
Are the grandkids fake? Did he buy them? Did someone hand them to him and say, here, be an honourary grandfather, have some honourary grandkids? Hey, Hunt, I’ll sell you some fake grandkids, they’ll look great for your image.
Use them in your life, on your webpages, bios, for media blurbs.
Does the US government accredit grandkids and warn about fake grandkid mills?
4) “How did he lie? And I hope you have more than just his bio. He has never claimed his doctorates where earned or even implied that they were.”
He has fake honourary degrees from diploma mills.
He knows he has been called Dr.
That is lying.
Did someone twist his arm?
Force him to misrepresent his academic qualifications?
Force him to use diploma mills?
When he is called Dr. does he correct it or ask his staff too?
The governor of his state called him Dr.
Pastor.
Fine.
Rev.
Fine.
SBC President.
Fine.
Dr. Hunt.
No.
Way to embarrass the governor’s office, there. They have the responsibility to uphold academic standards for their citizens, and religious guys with fake honourary degrees from diploma mills piss on them and their jobs. This is serious stuff.
Now that Johnny Hunt is an international figure, what’s the problem with making this right?
His congregation accepts him, he’s got real degrees, (and possibly a real honourary) he acknowledges these.
He permitted/asked you as his employee to put his fake degrees on his personal website.
They’ve been wilfully used to misrepresent him, you’ve colluded, he’s colluded, it’s lying, it’s wrong. Fake honourary degrees do nothing to further his new office, the cause of Christ or anything else.
If/when the state shuts these two diploma mills down, will the honourary degrees vanish?
Johnny Hunt can acknowledge the harm to the membership, nationally and internationally in his new position, the harm of diploma mills to SBC accredited institutions and put a stop to this misrepresentation any time he wants to.
5) “The thing is, if anyone was that hung up on the issue they could have simply asked Hunt.”
Yes.
We don’t know they haven’t.
People are asking now.
Chris, you’ve been inferring these questions are political, or about enemies, agendas, or jealousy.
Maybe some. But all?
Morality, ethics, institutional integrity, international representation aren’t on your radar screen other than the personal bother of a few accusers.
Does Johnny Hunt list the Doctor of Divinity and Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters on his resume?
I’d like to know what your boss has to say.
Bene D-
It is late so I will try to be brief.
First I want to quote Alvin Reid who posted over at http://forgodssakeshutup.blogspot.com/2008/06/mr-hunt-i-presume.html#comments.
“Hello sir,
I stumbled across your blog and agree that sometimes we should learn to keep our mouths shut. I have to say this, however. I have spent a lot of time around Johnny Hunt over the years. I have never seen him make any kind of deal about the title Dr. He has always been content to be referred to as Pastor Johnny. In fact, the only time I have ever heard of him referring to his being a doctor, relating to his D.D. given as an honorary degree, he said it meant “didn’t do it.”
I earned a PhD. I appreciate those who paid the price to do it right. I have met many who got cheesy degrees from shady schools. I have never seen Johhny Hunt act like that. So, while i will grant you the right to chide him, I expect he might just agree with you.
At any rate, I earned my PhD so I don’t worry too much about folks who are called Dr. Besides, it is actually appropriate in culture at large to refer only to medical doctors as “Dr.” in conversation. So, I am happy to be called Brother Alvin or just Doc as those who know me well refer to me.
Anyway, I am droning on. I would say finally that if you would criticize president Hunt (I think he did earn that title), it may be more appropriate to do so on issues of more weight. But this is your blog after all!”
Dr. Reid’s comment about Johnny Hunt referring to his D.D. as “didn’t do it” is correct and I wish I would have remembered that comment (which I have heard him make on many occasions).
Anyway, he does of an honorary doctorate from Tennessee Temple University which is an accredited institution just for record.
Also, you asked if the doctor of Divinity and Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters is listed on his resume, they are. I offered earlier to send you his resume but you declined. Although I wouldn’t really call it a resume since he isn’t looking for a job. It’s more of a ministry, educational, and family recap (it fits on 1 8.5×11 sheet).
You also referenced:
“2) Who’s standards? Please reference a professional or acceptable source when making such a position.
Is the US Dept of Education acceptable to you?
State attorney offices?
Better Business Bureau?
ATS?”
I was just asking of whether or not an honorary degree allowed one to use the initial Dr. before their name and list those degrees on a bio/resume/website. The link you provided does not answer that question.
And you referenced:
“Others using diploma mills in the SBC have been called on the carpet.
You brought that up, I didn’t.”
I did bring that up and you used it out of context. The issue for Steve Flockhart was not the accusation of diploma mills or even his resume. When confronted (after he was hired) about some questions about his degrees he lied about what degrees came from what schools. What Steve did was wrong but FBC West Palm bears as much blame for not checking in the first place the validity of his resume.
Hunt has fully disclosed where his degrees (honorary or not) came from and has never lied to the fact. He has (as far as I am aware) referred to himself as Dr., and he has made comments to the effect of the fact that the doctorates were not earned.
To accuse a man of lying is to accuse him of sin and demand first that he should be confronted in private (which has not happened), and not in the public forum. It also warrants proof that he has lied and therefore committed a sin. I can see you cause for alarm on some points, but that does not make Hunt a liar and deceiver.
Many of the attacks have been personal and have carried a political tone and an agenda. The debate on the validity of the degree and acceptability is fine, but to resort to personal attacks on a man’s character when he has neither lied or deceived is crossing the line and highlights the fact that some motive (and not pure) is involved. Just because he is not your pastor or your president does not give you the luxury of exempting yourself from this being “personal.” You have a personal motivation for your views and I am not the judge of what your motives may be.
I will concede the the honorary degrees from Covington and Immanuel are questionable, and I don’t know what work was completed to receive them (if any), but I do know that Johnny has fully disclosed that information of their origin and has never used them to promote himself or his position.
I am sure you will have more for me later, but at this time I need my rest.
Goodnight and many blessings!
“didn’t do it”
Then he doesn’t need either one.
Going through this thread there is a lot of passion.
I asked why someone would use diploma mills.
I never said Johnny Hunt didn’t disclose.
He’s right out there with diploma mills dangling.
I read the Steve Flockhart story, in the SBC inhouse publication.
The article was pretty clear among other things about why using diploma mills undermine the denomination, individuals, congregations, academic credibility and leadership.
I agree again Chris, there is a sad difficult lesson for congregations - the body politic - in the Flockhart story isn’t there?
1) “To accuse a man of lying is to accuse him of sin and demand first that he should be confronted in private (which has not happened), and not in the public forum.”
How do you know it hasn’t happened?
Joe asked.
It is a perfectly reasonable question.
We’re repeating ourselves.
Joe doesn’t know, I don’t know. Jeff doesn’t know. Mark doesn’t know. Do you know?
Johnny Hunt knows.
If the gentleman you quoted (Alvin Reid) spoke directly to Mr. Hunt about his fake doctorates from diploma mills, do you believe he was the only one?
The day Johnny Hunt became President of the SBC he put himself under a different spotlight. Being in the public eye sucks pavement sometimes, fake degrees from diploma mills and all. It’s difficult.
I think it was decent of you to offer to send a resume, but it isn’t going to change anything, not in this post, this conversation or the SBC, the only person that can do that is Johnny Hunt.
2) “Hunt has fully disclosed where his degrees (honorary or not) came from and has never lied to the fact.”
Yes.
They’ve been out there.
Diploma mills hiding in plain sight.
Fake degrees tacked into bios, speaker representation, articles.
3) Many of the attacks have been personal and have carried a political tone and an agenda.
Yes.
I’ve seen some.
Those attacks do. not. change. the. information.
Personal attacks do. not. change. the. facts.
A ‘line is crossed’ when someone uses diploma mills.
4) “Just because he is not your pastor or your president does not give you the luxury of exempting yourself from this being “personal.” You have a personal motivation for your views and I am not the judge of what your motives may be.”
This isn’t about my luxury, I’m not holding elected office.
The facts you’ve carefully acknowledged haven’t changed.
I said:
“Where I come from passing yourself off as accredited when you aren’t, giving yourself academic luster without doing the work is called lying, fake credentials speak to ego and pride and the bible has a fair bit to say about that.
It will be interesting to see what Hunt has to say for himself.”
Maybe using diploma mills isn’t about egos and pride.
http://www.degree.net/html/diploma_mills.html
I have one more thing for you Chris, mentioned earlier in our conversation.
“While that is the title of your post it seems you are more interested in label Johnny Hunt a liar… ”
Since you object strongly to the post title, tell me what you’d like instead.
Bene D-
I don’t object to the title of his post and the last post I do not object to at all.
This all began with Parham’s articles on Johnny winning the presidency and was full of biases and assumptions. If anyone could not see that they were biased they need help. It was definitely not “fair or balanced.”
My objections have fallen when you, others in this post, and other bloggers have questioned the character of Johnny Hunt (and calling a man prideful, egotistical, and a liar is personal and a character attack). You can say its about the facts but it’s not. I have no problem with the facts being addressed. That attack is personal and for the record this (the blogs) all took place before anyone personally brought it up to Hunt. That is wrong. Did you contact Johnny Hunt before your post?
You can question the degrees all you want. I don’t have an argument for you on that. I personally don’t know the validity of the degrees or the institutions where they came from. As far has Hunt using (or allowing others to) “Dr.” before his name, I have not been able to find acceptable, professional guidelines for those with honorary degrees (I am referencing the honorary degree from TN Temple which is accredited).
What will Hunt do in response to his honorary degrees? I don’t know. I haven’t spoken directly with him about this subject. I will be speaking with him next week. If I glean some insight I will gladly pass it along.
Thanks.
Diploma mills aren’t fair or balanced either.
I get this is very personal for you, I hope you find the peace to evaluate the information you’ve gleaned to the best of your ability.
When you speak to your boss next week you’ll have an opportunity millions of SBC members don’t have. Go under the mercy.
BeneD,
Seems like a real reach, trying to make it look like he lied on his resume, or that he is unqualified or passing himself off as something he’s not…
I don’t know a whole lot about the two schools in question, but how can you get cranked up about honorary degrees??? No doubt the schools gave them to him because he’s a great man and they wanted to claim some sort of relationship with him. Besides that diploma mill is a pretty strong term and it does not appear that either school “sells” diplomas. The have actual courses and actual guidelines. So you might be lying calling them a diploma mill. Wouldn’t want you to do that.
Hunt is not some fly by night guy, he’s got a master’s from swbts and pastor’s one of the greatest churches in the SBC this is clearly an attack and a hack job.
Bene D-
I did receive one piece of info today. Johnny Hunt did not buy or request the honorary degrees from Immanuel and Covington. Those institutions elected on their own to give Johnny Hunt those honors. Many of the national news outlets have been in touch with FBCW and Johnny Hunt’s office after picking up the story on the blogosphere and as far as I am aware none of them have picked it up because there really isn’t a story their. The debate can rage on about diploma mills, but Johnny Hunt has done no wrong.
The resume/bio that I have offered to send clearly states that these degrees are what they are and clearly imply nothing was done to receive them (including the one from TN Temple).
I have gleaned a lot from my discussion in this post and in a few others I have participated. I have mostly been discouraged that people are willing to attack a man they do not know with facts they do not possess. Many of the blogs only further fueled the discussion, not by adding anything new, but by repeating the words of others that they did not take the time to verify.
I asked you and several other bloggers if they contacted Johnny Hunt before they accused him of lying, pride, etc. as the bible mandates and either got a response of “no” or no response at all.
I do take this personally because it’s a personal attack. You can attack the issues all you want, but when you question the integrity and character of a man then you have made it personal. I have addressed this blog and others and try not to attack anyone personally and address the issues at hand.
I have often been asked by friends and family why I haven’t starting blogging myself (since I am a pretty avid reader of blogs). The answer is quite simple. I often see blog become nothing more than bully pulpits and rants that do nothing to promote the kingdom of God, and I feel it is better to avoid the temptation of doing such. That’s not to say I won’t start one day but at this time I have chosen to refrain.
After typing these post I always take a moment to reread them. I have often started over… not because of grammar (which I know is not perfect) or devise a better argument, but to say what is the right thing to say. And even then I have sometimes failed.
Johnny Hunt is a Godly man that has worked hard for the glory of God and His Kingdom. He did not deserve the things said about him, and I would be embarrassed to have said some of the things that have been posted about him if directed at my enemies (which I pray are few).
Bene D, I have no reason to believe that you have any ill will towards Johnny Hunt but your post and some of the others did not present themselves that way. It’s also not fair to beat up a dog that doesn’t even now he is in a fight, and I applaud Johnny for not jumping in. I have thought several times over the past few days that maybe I shouldn’t have either. A man that has done no wrong has no need to defend himself (or to be defended by others).
Goodnight… I have some ice cream on the table.
Thank you Chris, I appreciated your candor and your time.
Mike:
Diploma mill degrees - bought, sold, taken, honourary, given, ‘earned’ - are called “Name it and Frame it” degrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_It_and_Frame_It?
It’s a known practise in Calvary Chapel, Independent Baptists, some branches of neo-pentecostalism and now the SBC.
Some states have outlawed them for obvious reasons, but enforcement remains difficult.
The latest twist coinciding with the internet is fake accrediting agencies.
Unfortunately not surprised in the least. Smarmy lyin scam artists don’t seem all that Christian to me.
Woman at Mile O
You might appreciate a ‘why’ kind of answer from an SBC minister and english teacher in Kentucky who isn’t impressed with diploma mills either - he understands the drive and need that drives people into these smarmy scams in a way I don’t.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-big-money-for-a-little-piece-of-paper-dedicated-to-dr-johnny-hunt
Bene,
That link you gave leads no where? I am curious what other ways are there to obtain a or earned???
FYI, I checked out Covington’s web-site and while it is obviously not SWBTS it does appear that they offer legitimate courses of study and maintain reasonable admissions standards. I’m not suggesting that this is the best or even an advisable course that a young minister should take in their pursuit of higher education, but they don’t appear to be selling diplomas which is what is being implied.
Seems like sour grapes from a bunch of people that just don’t like the guy.
This isn’t about liking or disliking someone. You may dislike me, it doesn’t mean you wouldn’t give me facts or tell me the truth.
“I am curious what other ways are there to obtain a or earned???”
Would info from the US Federal Trade Commission be acceptable?
Guidelines for employers: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/diplomamills.shtm
Guidelines for consumers:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt149.shtm
Accreditation:
The process of evaluating the academic qualifications or standards of an institution or program of study in accordance with pre established criteria.
Such accreditation is provided by one of the regional accrediting commissions of the various associations of schools and colleges for the institution or by an appropriate national association for a specific area. (USA) Most areas of study do not have accrediting agencies.
What accreditation commisions does the SBC adhere to?
The SBC has 7 institutions of higher learning that regularly go through “validation of a their programmes by an independent organisation, which has established standards for judging quality.”
Accreditation agencies for the 6 USA seminaries: ATS, SACS
Canada: Canadian Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
(Masters level) ATS
If you or I chose to learn for fun, don’t need an employer to recognize the course work and can afford it, fine.
Mark mentions that above.
If I wish to transfer credits, get a job or obtain a legal degree I’m not going to seek it at B.H. Carroll for example.
They are clear their credits are not transferable, not recognized by employers and their degrees are illegal in some juristictions.
I earn course credits or a degree by:
1) attending
2) long distance learning
3) both
I did a course on 20th century literature and the OT from Western U by long distance learning while living in the Maritimes.
When I was ready for the final exam, it was proxied - my on site supervisor for the exam was a lawyer; the designated place and time (Dalhousie U) was not doeable.
Covington and Immanuel accredidation, see comment 17.
Admission standards are not exit standards.
Chris said:
“I did receive one piece of info today. Johnny Hunt did not buy or request the honorary degrees from Immanuel and Covington. Those institutions elected on their own to give Johnny Hunt those honors.”
Johnny Hunt said: “didn’t do it” (didn’t buy, earn the 2
This isn’t sour grapes Mike.
If you have an emotional and personal attachment for someone you respect and appreciate I can understand why you’d feel that.
I posted this response over at http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-big-money-for-a-little-piece-of-paper-dedicated-to-dr-johnny-hunt#comment-250172
I figured I would post it here also.
Bene D-
You mention that “Immanuel and Covington employee Hunt family members.”
Who are they?
You also mentioned “I wish I’d never posted about Johnny Hunt’s degrees, wish I’d never heard of Johnny Hunt.”
Yet it is you that seems to not be able to let go… you are demonstrating the saying “beating a dead horse.”
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time with this… apparently Johnny Hunt is not the one with a problem.
By the way, I will be with him next week. As soon as I can, if he has a response… I will post it here first.
Chris Lee
I think you have a point, this thread hasn’t died out yet.
“Who are they?”
Serious opps. Hunt should not have been in front of that, it’s a typo, and it’s wrong.
Thank you for catching that.
I’ll head over now and leave a correcting comment.
If you know who these families are and care to elaborate, feel free.
Covington:
President; James Stevens Sullivan, Jr.
Executive secretary; Glenda Sullivan
Director of administration services; Brent Sullivan
Immanuel:
James Stewart (faculty)
Clara Stewart (faculty)
Stephen Stewart (off campus director)
Thanks Chris, looking forward to what you have to say.
You have got to be kidding me. I was member of FBC when Johnny got his D.D. His joke then was it stands for Didn’t Do it. He hasn’t changed. He does not toot his own horn. He’s a humble man that loves Jesus and loves people. He has risen to a place of prominence because of those qualities.
Fake doctorates from two diploma mills aren’t tooting your own horn?
He took them.
You’ve got to be kidding me.
It is funny to me that some of you seem to be more interested in where Dr. Hunt went to school than what he has done for The Kingdom of God and the cause of Christ. If I remeber correctly Peter, James, John, Timothy, Titus and John the Baptist never went to anykind of seminary. The last time I checked the Bible said study to show yourself approved. I believe that Dr. Hunt has more than proved through his ministry that he has been approved by God. The record of his life, the life of his church and the work he has done for Christ locally, regionally and globally are testimony enough for me. You get on here and criticize him and I doubt your ministry has accounted for 1/3 of the people coming to know Christ as Savior as his has. We are not eachother’s enemy. We should all rejoice when God uses somone even if they did not go to the school we think they should
Dustin
Dustin:
Johnny Hunt didn’t ‘go to school’ to get those doctorates, they are from diploma mills.
This isn’t about what education we think he should have (he as one) it’s about ethics and honesty.
I don’t know if anyone who commented has a ministry, I don’t care, we are not each others enemy.
This speaks to credibility, about faithfulness in small things. Johnny Hunt has the opportunity to do the right thing. It’s his choice.
Just how is this blog furthering the kingdom of God? I suppose the time you have spent on here is in line with God’s agenda instead of your own. Let’s get the real scoop. Many have degrees from seminaries and they are about academics. I really do not believe God is impressed with a piece of paper even mine. Most of the students I went to seminary with were trying to figure out what ministry they were GOING into. During chapel most of the Dr.’s to be were going for coffee. If we are honest most are seeking degrees so that it opens doors for larger platforms. Maybe some are bitter because their degree has not given them a spotllght. It was not Brother Johnny’s degree but his desire to bring God honor that has placed him where he is.
In closing, an opinion about these God-honoring blogs. No answer is needed because I will not be here. I stumbled on this looking for information but I must really get back on track to the work at hand. The opinion is this if we spent as much time doing what God has called us to maybe there would be a spiritual awakening where we live. If you are a leader of a church i don’t bleive they are paying you to spend hours on a blog. In fact isn’t that stealing. Let’s focus on how to get people in gthe kingdom of God as the time of his return is drawing near.
There is no info on Pastor Hunt’s page any more, however, if you care to look at the Southern Baptist Convention’s Pastor’s Page, http://www.sbc.net/PresidentsPage/JohnnyHunt/bio.asp, you will see that Dr. Hunt holds earned BA and M Div degrees, but claims NO EARNED doctorates so what is the big deal? How is he lying unless he claims EARNED doctorates that he doesn’t have. Brother Johnny is a very effective pastor and preacher. That doesn’t come from a school, that comes from God! My husband and I worshiped with him and his church this last Sunday. We had a great time and felt the presence of the Holy Spirit and the warmth and love of this congregation of believers. What else really matters? People are being saved, churches started, missionaries sent. Is this not the work of the Lord? If it isn’t, I don’t know what is.
Answer your own question.
What is the big deal for a follower of Jesus Christ promoting diploma mills…
Explain to me why diploma mills are harmful.
Answer your next question, being faithful in small things and love not needing to lie.
Is this not the work of the Lord… No one said a church is not a church. That is great you were in the presence of the Lord, enjoyed yourself and you felt loved.
We are talking about diploma mills and the undermining of seminaries, education, credibility and leadership.
Johnny Hunts fake degrees are mentioned on at least one SBC site, he has not denounced the practice, them not being on a page does not make this go away.
The link you gave me says this, I stand corrected, it is on this page:
* Gardner-Webb College, Boiling Springs, North Carolina: BA Degree-Religion, 1979.
* Voted ministerial student of the year in 1979.
* Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, North Carolina: Master of Divinity Degree, 1981.
* The Chair of Church Growth at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary was named in Dr. Hunt’s honor on March 11, 1997.
* Dr. Hunt received an honorary Doctor of Divinity from Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary of Sharpsburg, Georgia, and also Doctor of Sacred Laws and Letters from Covington Theological Seminary. He also received an honorary Doctor of Divinity at Tennessee Temple University
TTU is accredited btw and yes, he has earned degrees, that is not the issue.
Answer your questions, I am curious.