California State Christian University

Recently several bloggers including me have been asking if California State Christian University is a diploma mill. They’ve also looked at a cluster of people with honourary degrees, looked at a ‘pastoral counsellor’ organization. The questions are legitimate.

We’ve been asking because several Canadians hold honourary doctorates from California, most notably Charles McVety, President of Canada Christian College, and some of his faculty. But Canada Christian College isn’t the only place the honourary degrees has popped up.

Queries to the California phone number by Bill Kinnon and Dan at Culture Choc have been unfruitful. Queries to Canada Christian College honourary degree holders (by email) have not been answered.

Once bloggers started asking questions, the website to California State Christian University underwent a upgrade (the Canadian URL remains inactive and unchanged)

JKim987 joined WikiAnswers in March 2008 and put this up:

Is California State Christian University a diploma mill?

It is not a diploma mill. California State Christian University is the American extension of Tae Han Theological Seminary and College, Seoul Korea, founded by Dr. Chi Sun Kim.
California State Christian University (CSCU) is a private postsecondary vocational school with religious exemption. We were approved by the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education on June 30, 2007; when the Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education Reform Act became inoperative, we and many other California vocational schools entered into a voluntary agreement with the Director of the California Department of Consumer Affairs.

Fair enough. I went through about 300 pages of the Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education Reform Act available at The California Department of Consumer Affairs. (Did I mention it was raining?:^)

All that led me to really was the 2008 49 page voluntary agreement list of private schools in the State of California, page 11. .pdf California Department of Consumer Affairs The paper work was done.

Yes 3302941 California State Christian University 3600 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1140 Los Angeles 90010

This is an updated list of schools in the state, now under the jurisdiction of The Department of Consumer Affairs.

The below-named private postsecondary educational institution shall agree to comply with all of the following: state statutes, rules, and regulations pertaining to private postsecondary institutions or pertaining to non-WASC regionally accredited institutions as defined in Section 94740.5 of the Education Code, as it existed on June 30, 2007, in effect as of the close of business on June 30, 2007, for the purpose of ensuring continued student protection after Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 94700) of Part 59 of Division 10 of Title 3 of the Education Code became inoperative. This agreement shall apply retroactively to July 1, 2007.

From the 2005-2006 fiscal year report of The California Department of Consumer Affairs: Religious Exempt clause

Religious Exempt Institutions
The Reform Act exempts any nonprofit institution owned, controlled, operated, and maintained by a bona fide church, religious denomination, or religious organization. The education offered by the institution is limited to instruction in the principles of that church, religious denomination, or religious organization, and the diploma or degree conferred by the institution is limited to evidence of completion of that education.

Institutions that are exempt can offer degrees and diplomas only in the beliefs and practices of the church. They cannot award degrees in any area of physical science or in any secular areas of study. Religious institutions that wish to be exempt from the Reform Act must provide, each year, evidence demonstrating that they qualify for exemption.

In fiscal year 2005-06, there were 40 religious schools that had qualified for exemption. The Bureau received 264 applications and approved 203 exemption requests.

So what does this approval actually mean? Private institutions may not advertise they have been approved by Consumer Affairs as transitioning to new laws takes effect. Is California State Christian University a diploma mill?

Q. What is the difference between approval and accreditation?

A. Approval is what the Bureau did as authorized by the Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education Reform Act, it was required by California state law for private postsecondary institutions who were not otherwise exempt. Accreditation is voluntary and is done by accrediting commissions or bureaus, not the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education.

One of the requirements for eligibility to offer student financial assistance authorized by Title IV of the Higher Education Act of 1965 is to be accredited by an accreditation agency recognized by the United States Department of Education.

The Wilshire Blvd location matches the business listing for the Los Angeles area. In other words the office is the office. The Northridge house location (campus) has, as Culture Choc noticed, a tax lien.
The WikiAnswer page re-iterates what is up on the US University website.

California State Christian University (CSCU) is a private postsecondary vocational school with religious exemption, approved by the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education. California created the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Schools with a predetermined June 30, 2007 sunset. This is to keep California government streamlined with updated bureaus and committees. A new governing body is forthcoming. CSCU is currently operating under a voluntary agreement with the Director for the California Department of Consumer Affairs.

The Facebook page has a member- James Kim, the gentleman who wrote the WikiAnswer page. Yes, one member.
Guess the alumni don’t do Facebook.

Interestingly I can’t find a thing on Tae Han Theological Seminary and College which is stated to be the founding school in South Korea. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, it just means I haven’t found it.

It isn’t difficult to find California State Christian University’s sister colleges.

A. The Evangelical Order of Certified Pastoral Counsellors of America – a Canadian group, and according to The Galloping Beaver, a lobby group, that is not registered as a lobby group. They are headquartered in Alberta and this self-regulatory board started by the current dean of another Canadian school Dr. Steven Hambly of Victory Bible College International. Former Victory dean, Brian Rushfeldt, now runs The Canada Family Action Coalition.

B. Victory Bible College International is also in Alberta. It is unaccredited, and licenced to operate by the province of Alberta through a private members bill. If you browse a bit at Victory you’ll find ties to another sister school,

C. Rhema Studies of Theology Association, another Canadian offering. It is also registered Canadian Charity, and it’s dean serves on the faculty of Canada Christian College.

D. Next up is Kingdom Covenant Leadership Institute, also in Canada.

We are also associated with Victory Bible Colleges International, California Christian University, Tae Han Graduate Theological Seminary/College of Korea and the Wagner Leadership Institute.

Kingdom Covenant Leadership Institute is recognized (not accredited) by The Evangelical Order of Certified Pastoral Counsellors, and is a member of Association of Christian Schools International. ACSI only accredits primary and secondary institutions.

Dr. Pat Francis of Deeper Life Family Church in Mississauga. Dr. Pat Francisis a radiologist, with her own church, Institute, businesses, charitable registration and honourary doctorate. The Francis Masters degree comes from an unaccredited school headquartered in Georgia.
The Revenue Canada 2006 return for the charity branch (Pat Francis Ministries Inc.) shows more liability than asset. One of the Kingdom Covenant Leadership Institute affiliates is The Wagner Leadership Institute, with Canadian headquarters in Red Deer Alberta.

Not to be outdone is Korea Internet Theological College and Seminary.
I can’t find it. It has to be on the internet somewhere, wouldn’t you think?

Is California State Christian University a diploma mill?

California State Christian University is the United States extension of Tae Han Theological Seminary and College founded in Seoul, Korea by Dr. Chi-Sun Kim.

Dr. Chi-Sun Kim was Presbyterian. When he returned to Korea after studying in Texas he helped start DaeHan Seminary. Some of Chi-Sun Kim’s story is picked upon this reform-online data base. This Duke University data base of Korean educational institutions has no mention of Tae Han Theological Seminary and College. This list from New Zealand also doesn’t have it.
I did find a reference to Dr. Chi-Sun Kim off an obscure document from the Christian Conference of Asia (don’t quote me, because I can’t find it in my history now) He spoke at a seminar, but the document wasn’t dated, there was no reference to Tae Han Theological Seminary and College. There is a reference to a Samuel Say Chang Kim (Chi-Sun Kim’s son) in Wheaton College archives of the 1983 conference for itinerant evangelists in Amsterdam.

T198 – Cassette. ICIE ’83. Message Preparation and Delivery (Asia), Samuel Say Chang Kim. Korean language. July 14, 1983.

Interestingly Lloyd MacKay mentions a hockey game played at Wheaton College a few decades ago in which the McVety clan participated. The hockey game would have had to have taken place priorto Hudson Taylor Armerding leaving Wheaton in 1982 if John Wesley White’s memory serves him correctly. That having been noted as an aside, it isn’t at all a historical stretch to see what might be some name dropping or name using occur to keep a private religious world relatively closed to outside eyes.

Would Canada Christian College, Victory, Rhema etc., even want professors from reputable institutions? It’s unlikely. The organizations jumping off from the ‘sister’ sites operate opening with no oversight. How many people have taken or been given honourary degrees from California?
The only reason I’ve been able to see for California State Christian University to exist is to give Canadians honourary degrees so they can teach at affiliates and stay in the shadows.
I stand to be soundly corrected, as does anyone chasing this, to date no one has stepped forward.

I’ll toss this out. California State Christian University started in 1972. It wasn’t until the 1980′s the FBI took an interest in diploma mills in Operation DipScam.That federal involvement ended in the early 1990′s. The US states are responsible for their schools and with the rise of the internet diploma mills exploded.
What if a small diploma mill in California was never on any regulatory radar screen? What if at the time it was founded (1972) there were few or no regulations?
The people I see benefiting here are Canadians, a sub-group well under the radar of Canadian regulatory bodies, and most definitely not on a California radar screen. If someone had traced this prior to the internet, would they have been given any attention by media? It’s doubtful.
If they had concerns and took them to a regulatory agency, would there have been cause to investigate? Would competing jurisdictions have worked with each other? According to When lobbyists speak in tongues, the current President of Canada Christian College is 48.  We know older men have honourary degrees from California, how many of a younger generation do?

California is swamped changing it’s governing process, the key task of The Department of Consumer Affairs was seeing students who have been ripped off in a state with the population of Canada get their money back, and get transferred into educational institutions where credits are recognized. The state is busy cleaning up and tightening up.

We don’t know when California State Christian University handed out it’s last doctorate or to who.

What do we know?
1. California State Christian University has a valid voluntary license with The California Department of Consumer Affairs.
2. It is not accredited with any recognized agencies in the US such as the US Department of Education or The Association of Theological Schools.
3. It’s affiliate schools in Canada are not recognized by ATS; both Victory and Canada Christian College got what they needed through provincial private member bills.
4. If Tae Han Theological Seminary and College is the US extension of a legitimate Korean Seminary, why is not listed as such with the US Department of Education or ATS?
5. California State Christian University is not recognized by accrediting agencies California does accept.
6. California State Christian University is using the past tense in reference to Tae Han Theological Seminary and College. (Tae Han Theological Seminary & College was the first of its kind…)
7. The site doesn’t identify which church, religious denomination or religious organization California State Christian University represents.

Canada Christian College hasn’t the most stellar history, McVety didn’t mind telling the Province of Ontario to take a long walk off a short dock. Victory Bible College International also had to get recognization with a private members bill. None of these institutions are subject to provincial review by assessment or quality assurance overview agencies. The unaccredited organizations clustering  around are theologically dubious, let alone questionable economically and academically.

P.S. I’ve sent a couple queries to Korea asking for information on Tae Han Theological Seminary and College.

Related: The Harm of Diploma Mills

The Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials

Looking for Tae Han Theological Seminary and College.
International Colleges and Universities – Korea
Korea Ministry of Education and Human Resources
Korea – List of Colleges and Universities

Update: Yaya Canada is way ahead of me; Degree or not degree? California State Christian University lists Korean Gospel Missions International, Inc., at the 17145 Devonshire Street, Northridge  found through independent research. Note the difference: Korean Gospel Missions Inc. verus the site below.

Facinating that Yoon Kwon Chae, the founder of Korea Gospel Missions International Inc. has a ‘doctorate’ from the same diploma mill as Johnny Hunt,  the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Both are connected to Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary at 195 Fischer Rd, Sharpsburg, GA.  Lester LeMay:

Bro. Chae began a publishing house in 1964 and started writing tracts and books to spread the Gospel. This has been a continuing ministry and some of his books (in both English and Korean) are presently available through the mission. A printed edition of his doctoral thesis (from Immanuel Baptist Seminary of Atlanta, Georgia), is available as “First Christian Mission to China”.

Update: California State Christian University has changed hands the past year. Dr. Robert Orr has information in the comment section.

About Bene Diction

Have courage for the great sorrows, And patience for the small ones. And when you have laboriously accomplished your tasks, go to sleep in peace. God is awake.
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35 Responses to California State Christian University

  1. Beijing York says:

    You are doing an amazing job following up on this. I really appreciate your efforts and find it fascinating that such diploma mills could possibly fly under the radar. Could there be a reluctance on the part of officials because of their overtly religious nature?

  2. Mrs.Spit says:

    Funny you should be looking into this, this has gotten to be a bit of an issue with my Brother In Law, who is attending Calvary Chapel Bible College in CA, and somehow seems to think that he is going to be able to take a law degree from his “degree” from there.

    Sigh. I wish these schools were honest. I don’t see how you serve Christ by lying to the faithful.

  3. BD says:

    Beijing: Yes. Very much so. This branch of Christianity is authoritarian, and doesn’t want adherents to be tainted by ‘ the world.’ A lot of fear involved. Thanks for your kind words.

    Contrary to myth, Canadian government agencies are not interested in interfering in religion in Canada unless there are complaints. Even then they attempt to work with the church/organization to resolve issues. They are well aware of the value of religious freedom.

    Mrs. Spit. I’m sorry. If your brother-in-law is an adult all you can do is point him to why properly accreditation is important, and stats on Calvary Chapel Bible College grads who have/have not been able to successfully transfer credits.

    Calvary is also a well known ‘ordination’ mill.

  4. Buckets says:

    I suspect that this is not a diploma mill in a typical sense. If it were in the business of making money off fake degrees, it would be easier to find out how to get one. I suspect that the institution was originally set up to become a real seminary; that it didn’t succeed, but that the legal and administrative ‘shell’ was left in existence; and that it has subsequently been used to give honorary degrees to friends.

  5. Bene D says:

    Fair enough Buckets.

    I’ve wondered that also, I just don’t know, and your point is well made.

    Bottom line then – continued existance is not feasible. It has long outlived it’s usefulness and might as well be shut down. Paying licencing fees in a holding pattern while the state of California sorts out educational enforcement, does what exactly?

    How do we know they aren’t taking money for fake degrees, or funnelling?
    We don’t. There is no transparency, no accountability, nothing.

    It’s still a Canadian problem – honourary degrees to friends undermines all of us. Parking a private little diploma mill out of the country and out of reach of our authorities is unethical.
    Why isn’t it illegal? Diploma holders are on faculties, that’s fraud, isn’t it?

    The more I read about different juristictions and agencies working to stop the bleeding from diploma mills, tighten up the handing out of honouraries; the more I realize men and women entering our political square saying they speak for Canadian Christians while holding pretend degrees and attempting to manipulate perception is just not going to cut it.

    And even worse – looking at churches and groups that have decided basic standards others accept don’t apply to them makes me sick. There is no excuse in 2008.

    This is one of the most unethical rackets I’ve ever looked at.

  6. toujoursdan says:

    You’ve got some great new stuff here. Keep it up!

  7. Bene Diction says:

    I see Yaya Canada came up with some information on St. Petersburg.

    I see they are way ahead of me on the Korea investigation.

    When you look at Korean Gospel Missions International, Inc (California State Christian University Northridge address) I’m blown away that Immanuel (Georgia) pops up.

    That is one of the 2 diploma mills the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention – Johnny Hunt, accepted an honourary ‘doctorate’ from.

    Jeff Lash also found the addy and mentioned it in the Johnny Hunt post here at BDBO.

    Immanuel Baptist Theological Seminary 195 Fischer Rd, Sharpsburg, GA

    Back to Charles McVety’s Russian honourary doctorate. As you remembered toujoursdan, Doug McVety pointed out the ‘doctorate’ was from Russia.

    Yaya followed that trail.

  8. Pingback: More Canadian religious leaders with connections to diploma mills and unearned doctorates at Bene Diction Blogs On

  9. Mi Nyunt says:

    I wish to do ministry together with you.

  10. BD says:

    Hi Mi Nyunt:

    Can you explain what you mean?

  11. Fixinlive says:

    I found this most interesting doing some research on a church here in London Ontario with some similar doctorates from CSCU and Victory Check these titles out for the pastors of Oasis Fellowship

    Keep digging – I always wondered about these bogus degrees

    Douglas McGeachie DCC., M.RE/C., D-CPC., G.P.P.

    • Doctoral degree – Victory Bible College International
    • Master’s Degree in Christian Counselling, California State Christian University
    • Missionaries in Guatemala
    • Certified Pastoral Counsellors
    • Certified Marriage Counsellors
    • Married; 2 children, 3 grandchildren
    • Members of Evangelical Order of Certified Pastoral Counsellors of America
    • Teaching staff of Evangelical Order of Certified Pastoral Counsellors of America
    • Counselling in Christian and secular settings
    • Owned a small business for 10 years

    Aileen McGeachie D.C.C., M.RE/C., D-CPC., G.P.P.

    • Doctoral degree – Victory Bible College International
    • Master’s Degree in Christian Counselling, California State Christian University
    • Missionaries in Guatemala
    • Certified Pastoral Counsellors
    • Certified Marriage Counsellors
    • Married; 2 children, 3 grandchildren
    • Members of Evangelical Order of Certified Pastoral Counsellors of America
    • Teaching staff of Evangelical Order of Certified Pastoral Counsellors of America
    • Counselling in Christian and secular settings
    • Retired licensed Physiotherapist – Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, ON, – 20 years

  12. Robert Orr says:

    I know that there is a skepticism about honorary degrees and while some are certainly unearned you can look at the profiles of literally every University President and notice they too have an honorary degree in addition to their academic awarded degrees.
    Many of the leading Universities around America now also offer life experience credit to student who have work experience that is considered of value to their educational pursuit.
    Honorary doctorates are given not only by Christian Universities but regularly by major State institutions to actors, business professionals, and even to politicians who come and speak at graduations or make substantial contributions to the University.
    If a doctorate (honorary) is given by an institution because it believes the life’s work or the contribution of the individual to the betterment of the school or the society that is the prerogative of the Institution.
    While we may question the merits of any Institution in giving a honorary degree to any individual we must not devalue the honor bestowed as it has been long recognized in Academia as an appropriate honor for those whose life truly deserves it.
    To slam CSCU for granting this degree because of your vendetta against Dr. Mc Vitie shows little appreciation or understanding of the reason for and worth of an honorary degree.
    I would also add that the holder on an honorary degree postulating that it has been earned through normal academic rigors is dishonest but having the degree is evidence at least someone recognizes the work and contribution of an individual as having value.
    I can’t be sure but I believe that if an institution of higher learning saw your life’s work and wanted to honor it by the granting of a honorary degree you would see it for what it is a visible thank-you for a substantial contribution to the betterment of our world.

  13. Bene D says:

    Thanks Robert.
    It’s McVety.
    Charles McVety.
    It is not an academic institution, it’s a diploma mill.
    Facts aren’t going to change because you think I have some kind of vendetta against Rev. McVety.

    Yes, if an accredited university or institute of higher learning offered me an honourary it would be quite the thank you.

    If a diploma mill offered me an honourary, it wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on.

  14. Robert says:

    A followup: Dr. Kim Chi Sun, The first doctor of theology in Korea and called by Dr. David Cho the Pastor of the largest church in the world called him the Jeremiah of Korea and credited him with personally mentoring him as a pastor and spiritual leader in Korea. After being in Korea this past month everywhere I went his name was recognized and revered
    His works are archived in Anyang University the most noteable being The Heart of the Gospel. I have pictures of both he and his work. A visit to Anyang University presidents office gave credit to his starting the seminary which went on to be the University. Virtually every church iun Korea has an early morning prayer service and I attended quite a few credits Dr Kim chi Sun with starting this among the churches and he is seen as one of the key founders of what has become a spiritual revival in Korea.
    His Son Samuel Kim the president of CSCU is also respected greatly in Korea as I found out. CSCU while it may not be perfect is certainly reformulating itself to train Pastors with 3 critical foundations.
    1. their theological competence
    2. their Spiritual Character
    3. their Missiological Passion

    The campus is part of a University consortium housed at William Carey University in Pasadena headed by Dr. Ralph winter founder if the US Center for World Mission.

    You can check out the website and you will find a dramatic change from what you are blogging. Even the most prolific Christian Author in america Dr. Larry Richards believes enough in the University to allow his name and advice to be part of the website as the Academic advisor .
    check the PhD requirements and you will see they meet or exceed the requirements of major world universities.

    All the facts in this email can be verified by simple research and if I could post pictures to verify it I would.
    No wonder Christianity in America and Canada is in so much trouble when half truths at best get postulated as fact.
    Maybe however the blog has no intention of promoting the good in christianity but simply finding those who are flawed and exploiting them.

  15. Bene Diction says:

    You can post pictures Robert.

    As a matter of fact I’ll post anything you’d like including your comments, and any other comments you care to offer.

    Just email me, I won’t censor anything you send, it will go up as is.

    CCCU is not accredited.
    Kim Chi Sun’s books being in Anyang University does not lend legitimacy to CCCU.
    Samuel Kim being respected in Korea does not make CCCU accredited.

    Charles McVety has an honourary from CCCU, not Anyang.

    Dr. Winters is free to endorse anyone he pleases.
    The William Carey vanity publishing house may well put out some good books, but it doesn’t change the fact CCCU is not accredited.

    Yes, the website has been updated. The Canadian link now goes directly to the California webpage.

    California State Christian University website:

    “At the present time (spring 2009) the enabling legislation that created California’s Bureau for Private Postsecondary & Vocational Education (BPPVE) has expired and renewing legislation is uncertain. Before the expiration, CSCU was approved by the BPPVE, today new State approval in California cannot be obtained.

    CSCU makes no statement that its graduates will be accepted by specific institutions or boards. The intent of the administration/faculty is to meet and exceed the academic quality posed by recognized accrediting agencies.”

    Saying academic standards exceed accredited institutions in the State of California or anywhere does not make CCCU accredited.

    If you want an opportunity to rebut, email it in and you can have a full guest post.

  16. James Kim says:

    Dear Bene Diction,
    You have mentioned many names on your blog, including mine. What is your name?
    James Kim

    I can personally tell you that CSCU is making organizational strides to seek WASC accreditation, the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools and the Association of Biblical Higher Education (formerly The Accrediting Association of Bible Colleges). These are members of the Commission of Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). We’re not there yet, but we are prayerfully working to accomplish those goals.

  17. Bene D says:

    Hi James, BD is fine.
    What is your relationship to Samuel S. Kim?
    Good luck attaining accreditation.

  18. Robert Orr says:

    I’m writing to add some information regarding CSCU. As James Kim pointed out full accreditation takes 6-8 years and requires graduating classes that meet accreditation status. I have been working so this self disclosure can be verified to help CSCU become a unique leading seminary. Our efforts have been rewarded as a major group of Baptist Churches has accredited us to train the future leaders for their movement. We have put in place academic rigors that equal or exceed the highest standards of similar institutions. We require 10 hours of classroom instruction 400 pages of reading per units as well as the usual tests papers and book reports. We are on a quarter system where 135 units are required for a Bachelors degree, 90 additional units for a Masters. Our first meeting with those who work on the accrediting process insured us we were well ahead of most schools and where they were at this stage. The fact that we have with the new model of Theological Education gained tremendous credibility with Key educators including Larry Richards, Dennis McFadden, John Nix Mc Reynolds, Kirk Mackie and others who have joined us to teach is testament to the changes we have made.
    While the old model was in existence I would also agree with you that it is possible some things done could raise the ire of persons like yourself I can tell you that we now have specified qualifications for honorary degrees as well and they include, A minimum of 25 years of significant Christian Ministry, Checking of references related to their work and character and approval the Academic Committee. There is no requirement that a donation of a particular size be given and it is not requested. So a diploma mill would not be a good designation as it is not a source of funding but an expense to us.
    If you check the website we have put a couple of our classes on the web so anyone can see the quality of instruction offered
    As well as the above we have started to implement a process for schools like those in Canada who wanted to partner with us to offer degrees. We are requiring that they meet the same hours of instruction and graduation requirements. They also must have a percentage of the courses offered and taught by our faculty with the same requirements as at the mother campus. We supply these classes on DVD and they are run by a class proctor so attendance tests etc can be verified. Failure to meet these standards as we have told the schools who which to partner with us will result in their students failing to matriculate.
    On another note but as an important part of our educational model was a doctoral study of graduating Ministerial students and it pointed out that after 10 years almost 80% had dropped out of Christian Ministry
    We have studied this and found the majority of failures arose because of flaws in character not competence. We require each student to participate in a Spiritual Formation Course each quarter where the “stuff” if it is not dealt with creates problems for them and the churches they serve is dealt with. We also since 80% plus of all churches in North America are plateaued or in decline require a course each quarter related to the mission and ministry of the church. These are things that make us unique.
    We also use as our primary instructors persons who not only have earned doctorates but are practitioners in their field. It is not unlike the model used extensively by the best business schools in the world. If we were to join most theological Accrediting associations we would be required to have full time faculty and it would undermine the objective of having students not only learn “what” but “how” from people doing it. Denominational executives have told us if we had to compromise this they would rather we keep this important distinctive rather than lose it by having to meet old paradigm regulations.
    It’s interesting that the problems that were true and a primarily Canadian issue are still being talked about as if that was still normal operations. CSCU has changed and the shell created in 1972 by Dr. Samuel Kim has undergone a metamorphous.
    I would encourage anyone who wants to check out our school to drop, by attend any class, talk to any of our students. If you compare what we do with any other institution of like kind (theological schools) I believe you will see we meet or exceed the best of high standards.
    I can’t control what impressions were derived over past actions and the problems created in intra Canada conflicts but I can tell you and invite your scrutiny to see that what is being done today is something everyone associated with CSCU today can be proud

  19. Bene D says:

    Dr. Orr:

    Thanks for the update.
    I note the physical move to Wilshire Avenue Community Church.
    Is the major group of Baptist Churches you mention Transformation Ministries?

    I acknowledge your four teachers have earned degrees and that you are pursing a different learning model.

    How did the break from Canada Christian College come about? If you don’t mind me asking, where does the money you solicit online go? Was there any sell off between California State Christian University and Canada Christian College?

    I wish you well, if the break has been made, I hear you saying you are now operating under the laws of the State of California and pursing a different path.

  20. Robert Orr says:

    We developed a contract for all the schools that wish to continue to work with us and that includes adhering to the requirements of the academic discipline regarding hours of instruction. We also require a fixed percentage of courses that our excellent faculty has done be taken so there is a real viable input and record of studies done with us rather than us accepting at face value whatever is taught elsewhere. We also require a bio of the instructor of any courses taught locally along with a detailed syllabus. It is then evaluated by the Academic Committee and then one of 3 options is taken
    1. The course is not acceptable for Credit
    2. The course is acceptable and meets the requirements
    3. The course needs to be modified are re reviewed in order to be acceptable

    So we have sent the contract to the schools in Canada informing them of the changes. Until we receive a contract and letter of agreement to abide by the academic rigors we will not matriculate any students from Canada. Already the EOPC has ceased to use the CSCU link as they have been asked to refrain from its use until their courses have been evaluated and a signed letter of agreement is reached.
    You can verify with EOPC that indeed we have told them that their will be no more degrees or courses accepted until the academic issues are fully resolved.

    As for your other question every school of higher education as the accrediting association has informed us receives the majority of their funds through donations, bequests and financial grants. As they looked at our financial model they noted that the major weakness in our administrative structure was our dependance on tuition dollars, and the generosity of a few individuals. Our donor base was neither larger enough or broad enough. Without the development of this component we would be unable to gain the academic accreditation we desire
    The part on the website for donations is part of that endeavor to raise the amount we need for our ongoing financial base.
    Our current faculty are, as our model demands, are skilled practitioners who teach in their area of specialty for a small stipend nowhere near what even a guest lecturer would make at an more established school. They are committed to us because they believe so strongly in the model of education we’ve developed. People like Dr. Larry Richards, Dr. Dale Salico, Dr. Charles Kraft and others all minister full time and have all been either full time or adjunct professors at leading colleges and seminaries like Wheaton, Dallas, Talbot, Fuller, and Gordon Conwell. They are seeking to leave a legacy in the lives of our students so the gospel can be transmitted faithfully for generations to come.

    I hope this answers your questions satisfactorily. I’ll check back on the blog in a couple of days.
    Give me your feedback as well on our website redo!

  21. Bene Diction says:

    I see only the hyper link at the EOCPC is gone, they are still advertising your website as theirs.
    As well they are advertising a December 3 credit module for California students.
    A 2008 page is still up listing a Western Canada representative for California State Christian University.
    Victory appears to have removed your site as has Canada Christian College.
    Alberta and Ontario legislatures granting accreditation status is about political favours, not standard of education.

    As you attempt to establish, I suspect issues will arise between you and Canadians who used it as a money grab.
    The groups listed in the post aren’t known for transparency, ethics or quality.

    Your website is loading quickly, easy to navigate, clear social networking and I understand it would appeal to a segment of a US churched population you are already in touch with.

  22. Robert Orr says:

    We have and I will be happy to send you a copy of the letter severing our relationship with EOPC. It is signed by myself as the Academic Dean and Dr. Samuel Kim who is the Chancellor and the one who originally developed the relationship with EOPC.
    As we met with the consultants regarding satellite and extension campuses it was made clear to us that organizations like EOPC who offer training courses cannot carte blanche transfer those into our university for credit. That is why we have asked that detailed course descriptions including assignments hours of instruction, a instructors qualifications be sent to us for evaluation. We make no promise of granting a specific number of units but only promise to evaluate it for transfer in. The students are also required to have a critical mass of courses from us that are provided on DVD and are hosted by a proctor to insure class participation and work is done.
    I will also check the EOPC website as I haven’t ever looked at it personally. If there are things that should be changed I will notify them in writing.
    I appreciate your help as we are trying to not only re-image CSCU but also make it a unique educational experience for those desiring to serve Christ and see their world’s transformed

  23. Robert Orr says:

    Just to inform you of a few items:
    1. We have written to the webmaster at EOPC asking them to remove the information about CSCU on their website.
    2. As discussed, you can email me and I’ll send you a copy of the contract we sent to EOPC if they want to continue their relationship with us. As the contract outlines only classess and instructors who meet the standards of accreditation will be allowed to be transferred for academic credit. the contract outlines in detail what those standards are.
    3. While accreditation takes time including having students education evaluated and a set number of graduation classes which can take 5-8 years the American Biblical Higher Education an accrediting body with the US Department of education is allowing us to become an affiliate member while working on all the items required.
    While it is not full accreditation it assures students that certain standards are being met.
    4. As per the guideleines of the Consumer Agency in California who supervises all post secondary education both public and private we have and are coninuing to develop relationships with like schools ie who specialize in religious training, who will receprocate with is in transferrring credit in and out. What that means is we have an obligation to accept like courses when their students come to us and they have an obligation to accept courses taken from us if our student go to them. These agreements forces each school to due due dilegence to insure what they are accepting meets the standards of whatever accrediting body they belong to. So it becomes a reality that accredted schools who examine what you do recognize it as meeting the standards give a validity to what you do. That is why we have insisted and will continue to do so that the highest standards required of accrediting bodies be met in our academic program.
    5. I know since I have a blog that it is possible to post items either chronologically or with the most recent blogs seen first if you would be kind enough to post most recent first it will inform people of the real changes that have occurred in the past year and the earliet posts are over 18 months old. I have no objection to the earlier posts as the mistakes made were real and the correction of these mistakes has taken dilegent work over the past 2 years.
    6. We have also told students that the requirement of the State of California is that Academic records for transcripts must be kept for 50 years. Therefore only students registered with us, studying in our main campus or a liscensed Approved Learning Center, will be allowed to matriculate and receive degrees from us and only those courses transferred in from a like school in terms of academic rigors will be accepted as part of the transfer record. This insures the student applying for a job that the work they have done to earn their degree is real and also insures employers they can count on the school to give the training required. This is the reason denominational bodies are comfortable with sending students to us.

  24. BD says:

    If I am understanding you correctly, Canada Christian College, Victory, Kingdom Covenant and Rhema have complied with your requests?
    The honourary degrees Canadians formerly connected with California State Christian University gave themselves remain as bogus as than when they handed them out to themselves and friends.
    Do you have the old records?

    The post is updated, linking to your latest comment.

  25. Robert Orr says:

    We are still in the process of getting the contracts for all the Canadian schools. Getting course descriptions, instructors qualifications, hours of instruction, assignments etc all need to be put together. We have sent in an application for affiliate status with the American Association Of Biblical Higher Education which is recognized by the Department of Education in the US so we will require all affiliates to have all courses meeting or exceeding the Accreditation. The Academic Committee of CSCU will evaluate the information received and then only courses approved by the Academic Committee will be approved for matriculation.
    Re your question of Honorary Degrees. I don’t know if there are any records of them. We do have records for Academic Degrees as we are required by State Law to have transcripts available for 50 years. There isn’t any state requirement for Honorary Degrees and the requirement to keep records. I can check to see but right now we have very strict guidelines for an Honorary Degrees. These include but not limited to
    1. 25 years of fruitful ministry
    2. References as to Christian Character
    3. Recommendation and approval of the Academic Committee
    4. No more than one D.D. and one D.Litt within any given country in a year. A DD is honorary to someone in Christian Ministry and the D. Litt, Doctor of humanity is normally given to a businessman who as a Christian has made a great contribution to the Cause of Christ through time effort and resources.
    We have removed all requirements that Honorary Degree Candidates be asked to make a donation to CSCU. Many schools I am aware of use Honorary degrees to raise funds by giving degrees to those whose philanthropy gives a large donation to the school. We don’t want to get into that trap.
    My personal philosophy is that if you sell a degree that is the price of your integrity so to preserve the integrity of our character and the schools integrity as well these guidelines give us a good way of honoring those who truly deserve to be honored without being in the degree selling business.

  26. Goddie says:

    I can attest to the changes Robert has been talking about. CSCU has truly metamorphosed into a quality school. We need to support their efforts and promote quality Christian education rather than focusing solely on criticism. But I admire the work BD has done to shine light on some of the issues cited above.

  27. Ray Bennett says:

    As a graduate student of CSCU, I can personnaly attest to the rigors of the scholastic requirements. Each course required a minimum of reading and submitting reports on three outside books, in addition to the materials used in classroom instructions. Immediate feedback to the professor regarding the students comprehension of the subject matter was the result of small classes in which the interaction between student and professor was required and unavoidable. The professors were all current or former pastors holding doctorates from accredited institutions. The unique aspect of CSCU that attracted me is the fact that the courses emphasize application. It is insufficient for institutions to teach theory without application, thus leaving the graduate without the training necessary to apply the knowledge obtained through study.

  28. Bene Diction says:

    “The professors were all current or former pastors holding doctorates from accredited institutions.”

    Can you tell me when you graduated Ray, and what accredited institutions your professors graduated from?
    If you want to just list your profs, I can look up their education.

  29. George Mamboleo says:

    CSCU is for those of us who need to be equipped by practitioners and leaders of proven experience in a particular field. The criticism are OK but should be balanced and objective. Dr Bob Orr the current president is a great teacher and pastor. Those of us who live on Africa have no access to theological training even the basic foundation of the Christian faith. The CSCU is using affordable and module of training. The honorary degrees are recognition of those who deserve it for the long years of serving the body of Christ. The accreditation is good but knowledge earned is much better than the paper itself. Bene D, is exposing those who do it for profit but CSCU is doing for equipping the saints.

  30. Pingback: Senator Don Meredith and Charles McVety’s California State Christian University | Bene Diction Blogs On

  31. Pingback: Senator Meredith challenged for using the title ‘doctor’ |

  32. Robert says:

    This is quite interesting. I intend to look further into this. I see tons of references, but no hard documentation, curricular vitae, active locations. The certification “ahem accreditation” mentioned on other pages is primarily for schools offering distance learning.

    As a credentialed educator in the state of California with multiple accredited degrees (both graduate and undergraduate) and as a Christian believer with cold hard sweat put into my seminary education, I find it abhorrent that certain institutions lean so hard on the religious exemption clause to prop up something that may or may not exist. Of course I will say here (legal disclaimer) that this is a general statement. I think a dose of healthy professional investigative reporting would do some good here. I will be contacting some contacts in Canada. Try google maps and see the location listed.

  33. Robert says:

    This phenomenon is nothing new

  34. Robert says:

    … current faculty are, as our model demands, are skilled practitioners who teach in their area of specialty for a small stipend nowhere near what even a guest lecturer would make at an more established school. They are committed to us because they believe so strongly in the model of education we’ve developed. People like Dr. Larry Richards, Dr. Dale Salico, Dr. Charles Kraft and others all minister full time and have all been either full time or adjunct professors at leading colleges and seminaries like Wheaton, Dallas, Talbot, Fuller, and Gordon Conwell. They are seeking to leave a legacy in the lives of our students so the gospel can be transmitted faithfully for generations to come.

    I see no course listing at all with these guys… There is nothing anywhere…. Chuck Kraft?
    Dr. Larry Richards? ….. As a Fuller Student, I am even more intrigued…

  35. Robert says:

    Not a student for credit at Fuller… Let me clarify.. Prospective for the upcoming term.

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