A 30 year old TV ministry based in California seems to have fallen into more than hard financial times.
The Crystal Cathedral is associated with Reformed Church of America, and has televised its Hour of Power program since the 1970′s. The property and the buildings are a tourist attraction, as a US mega-church, it is known for it’s architecture and it’s Christmas pageant, 4th of July service, celebrity appearances and positive message. The church in Garden Grove California is selling off some of it’s property and laying off staff.
Mysse declined to name those who were laid off, but said among those let go was the pastor who headed Crystal Cathedral’s Hispanic ministry.
Church Executive magazine, meanwhile, reported that executive pastor Jim Poit and his wife, Linda, who was director of children’s ministries there, were part of last week’s round of layoffs, as well as Deb Yurk, who had been brought on board by Poit as pastor of congregational life.
A church spokesman reportedly told the magazine they were “laid off” and went on to say that Poit, his wife, and Yurk “didn’t fit the vision of the new leadership.” While Crystal Cathedral’s media and public relations director, John Charles, confirmed with The Christian Post that Yurk and the Poits were among those who were let go last week, he declined to comment on the statement “supposedly” given to Church Executive.
All has not been well in the founders family.
The Schuller family sees the Crystal Cathedral as a family business according toThe Associated Press, and congregants were shocked when Robert Schuller Jr was removed from the TV show in October and his resignation was handed in a month later.
While founder Dr. Robert Schuller, 82 has stepped down, his son who was to take over, and has been in the televised service as senior minister since 2006. His departure in November 2008Â led to a petition for his return at the church website. It now appears the family rift was a bit deeper than the claimed 20 million viewers around the world were aware of.
The family is sorry for thrusting its problems on the rest of the congregation, an emotional Sheila Schuller Coleman told church elders during the meeting in which Robert H. Schuller was not present.
“This is one of the most difficult times we’ve walked through as a family,” she said, choking up. “I’m so sorry that the conflict in my family has meant so much hurt to all of you. We’re still trying to understand what happened to our family.”
She explained that a rift between her father and brother had deepened over time and was “exacerbated by external influences.” They even had family interventions, but nothing worked, Coleman said. The joint appointment of her husband, Jim Coleman; Jim Penner; and Chief Financial Officer Fred Southard to the newly created Office of the President in July, started a chain of “horrendous events,” she said.
“We were naive enough to believe then that it would make things better between my brother and my father,” she said. “But it made everything worse.”
…Jim Penner said Robert A. Schuller left the ministry because “he wanted it all.” The son wanted full control of the ministries including the post of president that Robert H. Schuller has held since he founded the ministry.
“But the board was not for it because they did not believe Robert A. was ready for that,” Penner said.
When the Office of the President was created, Robert A. Schuller got more upset, he said.
“It didn’t change his ability to lead the church because he was still the senior pastor,” Penner said. “But he was upset and never got past it.”
Robert A. Schuller and Poit had “tremendous freedom to make any changes they wanted,” Penner said.
“No one stood in their way,” he said. “As Robert H. Schuller is growing older, we need someone to take his place that can grow the church.”
Robert A. Schuller was not available for comment. But his wife, Donna, who worked with her husband in the ministry, said her husband “was controlled.”
“He was not given a free rein at all,” she said.
The Canadian offices of The Hour of Power are based in British Columbia. The show airs on 10 stations, CTS and The Vision Network and has an operating budget of about 4 million dollars a year. Robert Schuller Jr. is listed as a director for the Canadian office with Revenue Canada.
On March 21, 1979, the ministry received its tax deductible status as a non-profit charity. Though initially the ministry operated from the office of one of its board members, in August, 1980, the board of directors hired the first executive director and moved the ministry into its own office. As the number of Canadian television stations broadcasting the Hour of Power increased, additional staff was hired.
In October, 1982, the ministry moved into new offices in Richmond, B.C., and by 1988 the ministry was in a position to purchase the building they are currently occupying. The 2,500 sq. ft., two-story office in Surrey, B.C., was a great blessing, having saved the ministry thousands of dollars in rental payments over the years.
Hour of Power Canada’s core staff members have been with the ministry for quite some time: Director Rita Neal began in 1981, and Administrative Assistants Irene Sorensen in 1982, and Judy Johnstone in 1985.
The Hour of Power now reaches into the homes of 85% of the Canadian population. Viewers play an active role in the ministry through correspondence and financial support, with approximately 53,000 letters and e-mails received each year.
Crystal Cathedral - wiki
Crystal Cathedral – home
Orange County Register – The two Rev. Schullers
Upate: 29/03/09 Robert A. Schuller has started a church, his wife Donna is blogging here.
Update: 26/06/09 Sheila Schuller is taking over the Cathedral
…..Relax my friend,simply jesting…loosen the girdle
“less traveled road most always leads to a dead end.
KEY WORD-”most”
….LMAO
Brano ..
and I was making a greater point which was obviously wasted on you.
Christians parrot what they learn without ever taking the time or making the effort to investigate the facts. They babble the same nonsense assuming truth – never questioning, never challenging. and when they do challenge they are gifted with bullshit responses, and excuses for their departure from the faith.
If you have something intelligent to say – bring it on, but don’t act like a petulant child. Go out and learn something about your faith from some source other than Hal Lindsey or Pat Robertson.
History continues to show this statement to be silly and erroneous….”I am eternally grateful that you are on the side of Christianity, as it will indeed hasten it’s long overdue demise.”
LOL
Pastor’s (plural). Lot’s of history about the Greek and Hebrew roots and meanings. Timelines and how events played out in history. Learning how to speak and read hebrew. Lots of stuff for the girls with women’s ministry. Just girls stuff though. Much to do about missions stuff. It keeps us very busy.
Susan ..
Kind church lady.
How will you obtain bliss in your everlasting life while millions will suffer eternal agony in hell? Tormented and screaming in earsplitting shock and in horrifying terror and pain?
Particularly when some of them are your associates, acquaintances, and relatives?
When so many millions of them are merely ordinary, “good” people who were in the “mistaken religion?” Little children, grandmas, citizens who have done magnificent things, millions of people who led brilliant lives, tormented in hell because they did not accept Jesus?
Elucidate how this is vaguely reasonable.
….Theology 101…..”Why to bad things happen to good people”…..Why are there earthquakes that kill people…Why do most people do not have clean water to drink….???
Why do most people go to bed hungry every nite???
Why…Why…Why…Hmmmmmmmmmmzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It’s not bliss I look for. I look for a Day of Atonement. I need Jesus.
The days of destruction, judgement of sins, and Hells fires. Why? There is sin. Malice, evil, cruelty, injustice, wrong, willful sins, insolence are real. Where do they come from? A force called Satan. He takes innocent blood and plots a wicked plan and sows his discord with pride and arrogance. While the human soul can’t see his schemes.
I swing a sword called God’s Word. I put my soul in His hands. My life belongs to Jesus.
Susan:
Satan. Oh yes. I remember now.
Susan. This is how religious systems work!
Each religious myth survives by having an “anti-hero”. Religions gain popularity and ultimately make a profit depending on the scariness of their particular Boogieman.
The Boogieman must inspire terror and absolute reliance upon the pastors, and the dogma and superstition of the faith. The Boogieman concept seems to have worked exceedingly well in your particular state of affairs.
Don’t you EVER think for yourself?
That makes me giggle….sounds like that was taken from a disney book!?
I’m not scared of the boogie man. He’s not real. The different natures of world powers and their religious endeavors, they are very real. No one can deny that. In this great sea of powers, there are giants. These are real. This is not a myth. That’s what I think and see.
Susan.
There are many competent professionals to assist you in dealing with hallucinations and unrealistic fears.
Time for me to take a Anapausis. As the scriptures tell us to do.
Brano said, “My experince shows me that most ‘athiest’ and “non-believers” have been hurt and wounded by “christians” and “religion””
So true Brano… I could list millions who have even been killed by Christians or because of religion. Shall we start with the crusades and go from there?
Spot on!….Apart from being hurt and wounded by “religion” & “christians”,whatever the flavour may be…..Most “athiests” live by Western, aka “Greek thought’,which says that if it can not be put in a test tube,it is not “real”….and we all know about Greek civilization and how that went!
I also find that most “athiest” sit in their “ivory towers”…..and have never travelled this wonderful planet,to see for themselves,”what is real”…..pathetic
Empty platitudes….Empty words….Empty thoughts……Void & Angry ‘they” are!
“Life is more violent than death”….carry on my friends
Brano…
As I mentioned previously. I am eternally grateful you are on the side of Christianity, for it will hasten it’s demise.
For someone who can’t even spell atheist, you certainly seem to know a great deal about them. Please continue your posts as they are a tremendous source of amusement.
This is logistically insane thought-”As I mentioned previously. I am eternally grateful you are on the side of Christianity, for it will hasten it’s demise.”
You need to study more history my friend
Christianity flourishes with “persecution” amigo
Regarding atheists and non-believers being hurt by “christians” and “religion”…
Lots of us were christian for many years, very deeply committed. Religion, including Christianity, hurts everyone in some way. Religion fundamentally causes division. It excludes, while the opposite, secularism, is inclusive and does not differentiate on the basis of religious beliefs. Take the Catholic and Public school systems. A Catholic teacher can teach in a Public school, but a non-Catholic cannot teach in a Catholic school. Religion, Christianity, teaches children the superiority of their beliefs over the baseness of other faiths or non-believers.
Human beings themselves are entitled to the highest amount of respect. Beliefs are not. Religion puts itself before the respect and the rights of the person. It tells the person how to live their life, how to be and what should be important to them. Religion strips one of their own autonomy and forces parents to put this yoke upon their children to perpetuate the life cycle of religion.
As atheist and humanist Mansoor Hekmat puts it, “I will not respect any superstition or the suppression of rights, even if all the people of the world do so. Of course I know it is the right of all to believe in whatever they want. But there is a fundamental difference between respecting the freedom of opinion of individuals and respecting the opinions they hold.”
What is wrong with being critical of religion anyway? Don’t we have the right to criticize Christianity given its historical and contemporary track record? Given the continuous revealing of discrepancies, error and fallacy of its fundamental precepts? Given that religion/Christianity has for centuries extended its reach beyond being a private matter and took hold in courts, legislatures and schools when politicians promoted their religious beliefs? Why can’t we have an open discussion about why religions should be relegated to soup kitchens or be taxed as a private enterprise and no longer given public funding?
Christians on this blog seem hardwired to be deafened to any criticism of their belief system. That is a dead-end and dangerous place to be.
I beg to differ!
Everybody hates “religion”
God is Love
What is the big Dealio?
Brano ..
Again I do thank you for serving as a perfect example of someone with “childlike” faith.
Your rebuttals are wonderfully designed to portray Christians as unintelligent, unenlightened, uninformed, uneducated and with nothing tangible to say in rebuttal to an obviously superior adversary. You take up valuable space that could be effectively used by someone with actual knowledge, and help us to contrast Christians with atheists in a manner that does Christianity no favors.
Please God – let Brano stay here!!!
….Too funny…LMAO
Marina
what Christian denomination did your husband pastor under for 20 years ? I’m NOT trying to stir up a fight whatsoever. I’m just curious to know.
And secondly, whatever it was……did either of you ever actually get saved during your time in Christianity ? Did you both actually accept Christ into your heart and confess Him as the Messiah?
JackieV
You want answers from Marina – when do I receive an answer to my previous question to you?
…That would be a “free-will” choice my friend…
Please do not be “offended”
Brano …
Far from being upset, I take great satisfaction in her non response.
modo responsum non vincat (No reply – I win!)
Apollonius Persius
Appian Petronius
Arrian Phaedrus
Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
Columella Phlegon
Damis Pliny the Elder
Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger
Dion Pruseus Plutarch
Epictetus Pompon Mela
Favorinus Ptolemy
Florus Lucius Quintilian
Hermogones Quintius Curtius
Josephus Seneca
Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
Juvenal Statius
Lucanus Suetonius
Lucian Tacitus
Lysias Theon of Smyran
Martial Valerius Flaccus
Paterculus Valerius Maximus
Pausanias
These historians were either living at the time Jesus performed his works, or lived within 100 years of his death. None reference him in so much as a single word. How embarrassing.
Tell me JackieV – Would your god leave absolutely no historical shadow whatsoever? Why would he mute over 2 dozen contemporary historians, and leave you with absolutely no substantiation that Jesus ever existed? What kind of a god do you serve who burdens you to bend all intellectual thought into a dark corner, cover your eyes, and pretend this isn’t true? What kind of a god leaves you stunted for the most basic answers to the most basic question imaginable?
The laws of Moses required two or more witnesses – why doesn’t your god give you even one?
I listen to your bullshit, and yet when asked to give an account of your faith – you remain silent.
Did you cut and paste all those big fancy names?
You seem to be to be “trying” to give me an acccount of your faith!?
Get out of your Ivory tower and do some real travelling friendo
The Gospel of Jesus Christ Has Always Offended the Wicked! Romans 9:33 refers to Christ as a “stumblingblock” and a “Rock of offence.” Jesus clearly taught in Matthew 10:34,35 that He did NOT come to this world to bring peace. Let me clarify, Jesus’ did come to die upon the cross for our sins; thus, enabling us to have peace with God through the precious shed blood of Jesus Christ. BUT, Jesus also expects us to preach the Gospel, which OFFENDS most people. Let me define “Gospel” so there is no misunderstanding. 1st Corinthians 15:1-4 defines the “Gospel” as the DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION of Christ Jesus. This includes the blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:9).
If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane.
Robert Green Ingersoll
Isn’t that a cute little quote,Was that from a chinese fortune cookie?
You left out Flavius Josephus, Hist. 58. Don’t worry about winning. I run a race to win a different kind of prize. History is full of those who hated the JC movement. You know, politics.
I would rather live and love where death is king than have eternal life where love is not.
Robert Green Ingersoll
{major assumption that there is no love in eternal life}…..MADNESS!
But,”it sounds good”…it “tickes the ears”….I guessssssss???
Susan,
Kind church lady.
It saddens me to observe you have never cared to investigate Josephus, and continue to elevate a falsified passage into a position where you would wager your faith upon an unmitigated forgery; a forgery so universally accepted as utterly pathetic, and so obviously seeded without the author’s awareness or sanction, as to render even the mention of Josephus’s words a mockery of your intelligence. Your conviction rests on sand to be sure.
Read what a knowledgeable Christian has to say about the passage you are hanging your devotion upon:
http://www.theology21.com/2010/10/06/the-curious-case-of-the-christian-love-affair-with-josephus/
WOW….,that..AtheistAtBirth….unrelenting, drivel & piffle
Annoying “test tube thinking”
Brano ..
Congratulations. You learned how to spell atheist. Lets work on asshole next, since I’m going to be calling you one.
LMAO…..Thank you!…
I do admire your passion & “faith”
Let those interested in the reference made about Jesus in the “Antiquities of the Jews” read it for themselves. Book 2o Chapter 9. Like the scholars that debat the subject to this day, it still remains in history that he was lived. They can’t seem to get around that.
Clarification June 8, 2011 at 1:14 pm
Like the scholars that debat the subject to this day, it still remains in history that he was alive.
….and shall we go a little further-The Masoretic Text (MT, ????, or ) is the authoritative Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible regarded almost universally as the official version of the Tanakh.[citation needed] It defines not just the books of the Jewish canon, but also the precise letter-text of the biblical books in Judaism, as well as their vocalization and accentuation known as the Masorah. The MT is also widely used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles, and in recent years (since 1943) also for some Catholic Bibles.[1] In modern times the Dead Sea Scrolls have shown the MT to be nearly identical to some texts of the Tanakh dating from 200 BCE but different from others
and in closing …
“Faith: not *wanting* to know what is true.” — Friedrich Nietzsche.
In the Hebrew and you will find it at the end of First Corinthians. “Maran atah”. Not to confuse with Maranatha.
Brano. We do not have the original document of “The Bible”. In response to the Masoretic Text nobody says it better than Ferris Till. The MT is infested with scribal errors. Check it out. Or does the url wording scare you?
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/4jerem90.html
I’ll gladly answer your questions Jackie V, and more.
My husband and I began our Christian lives, unknowingly obviously, as infants, being baptized and indoctrinated into the Roman Catholic church. Religion is tradition and it perpetuates itself in every new generation. Though we didn’t know each other, we both became “born again” believers when Bornagainism became popular in the early 80′s as teenagers. Eventually we settled into the Charismania/Pentecostal/ Evangelical circles, and fell for the whole name it claim it, prosperity gospel spiel. Well, we kinda fell for it. Until the formula didn’t work.
Anyway, as for your question. My husband was primarily a worship leader for many years. He did not begin pastoring as such until shortly before leaving Christianity (say, 5 years.) upon going through a course in reformed Christianity. Although one could argue that the biblical pastor doesn’t require a certificate or education from some seminary, so you could say we were both “pastoring” unofficially for 20 years. Anyway, his desire to lead others to Jesus and grow in the faith of Christ was fostered not by what was happening in the world, but by by the twisted doctrine fed to the people in the pentecostal churches we attended.
We knew that the gist of the gospel of Christ was not driven by wealth and material success in this life, but that the teachings of Christ according to the gospels, centered around sacrifice and denying oneself in this life to demonstrate the reality of the nature and character of Jesus to the world. Popular Christianity didn’t look any different than the ‘world’ did. We knew that what has being preached in popular Christianity was not what Jesus taught and so we were driven to search out the ‘true’ faith. The bible spoke of deceivers and counterfeits in the last days, so our estimation of the health and wealth gospel seemed legit.
Let me make this clear. If my husband and I were not truly serious about serving Jesus and upholding his truth at all costs, he could have made a very VERY comfortable living off of the gospel just like all the other wealthy preachers you are at odds with. He has the ability to preach, to dramatize, to speak, to relate to, to morph into whatever role he needs to. He has charisma and an ability to swoon people. My husband had many offers. However, it is not in his or my nature or common sense to deceive others in order to “get ahead”. In other words, he is not a con artist or fraud in the name of god or any other.
Truth will uphold itself and eventually our nagging longing for truth, no matter where it led us or what it cost us, led us out of religion, including having a “relationship” with Jesus. (The relationship really is part of the religion whether you want to acknowledge that or not.) Hard to wrap your head around until your at that place. Isn’t it?
Did we get saved? Oh yes. And many times over just to be sure. I can’t make you know how hard we lived and loved what we believed. Our lord and saviour and pleasing him was everything. We forsook all, denied self and were willing to die for what we believed we were called for. All I can say is it was as genuine a love we had for Jesus as the love we have for our children. No, even more for Jesus.
Thanks for your openess and transparency Marina. I’ll leave you and Jackie to carry on.
Atheist@Birth: Are you willing to share your walk through Christianity? Comments are easy to link and as you dialogue, it may help the curious to be able to reference your experience.
Thanks Marina,
However Ferris Till just has an “opinion”,let alone being a credible scholar
Bene ..
The beginning started close to 4 decades ago for me. Independent of any TV or church evangelist my decision to convert to Christianity began an journey of human nature, of exploring the intricacies of faith, fraud and folly. Having had no religious upbringing is quite a disadvantage. Everything is learned the hard way, and I quickly developed a sense of independence when it came to the various “moves” of god witnessed during my tenure. Anxious to receive all the gifting promised by writ and scripture, my complete abandonment into a pentecostal style of the faith nearly cost me my marriage, and dearly cost me in old friends and acquaintances. Later it nearly cost me my life.
A little less than 10 years immersed in a Christian based sports organizational endeavor as vice president, we grew the club to what was believed to be the largest of it’s kind at the time. Preaching teaching, witnessing, counseling, casting out devils, operating in the “gifts of the spirit” were normal everyday operative words to me.
Several folks have now asked me if I was ever truly saved during those years, and I typical answer that my life was offered up to god figuratively and literally. A few minutes one way or another would have found us in the middle of a devastating bomb blast, back when biker wars were popular where I ministered, and we happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time witnessing to the bad boys of the Harley world.
The worst memories of my years as a Christian are those I spend contemplating how many lives I have ruined by leading people to Christ. When retirement finally called me, I actually had huge blocks of time to spend in exploration of this faith which seemed to me incapable of sustaining itself, and I wanted to know why. But I wanted to go to the actual foundations of Christianity, and study the religions of the day, and the political, and economic situations that existed at the time of Christ.
Mostly, I wanted to understand why people who had sold out to this Jesus, who were living breathing examples of changed human beings, apparently filled with the holy ghost and endued with power from on high, could leave their wives and marry the worship minister, walk off with tens of thousands of dollars in church funds, or willing say and do things even a child would avoid. I wanted to understand why Christianity is such a mess, why TV ministers bilk thousands, and why people with intelligence and common sense fall under the spell and allure of Christianity.
I remained within the grasp of the cult for over 3 decades. It took 6 months of concise study, and a nudge by some people I loved and respected to finally remove myself.
As a private pilot, my instructors always taught me that knowledge will help you to overcome fear. You fear what you do not understand. Learn – and stop fearing.
The list of books I devoured were written mostly by respected scholars, many of them Christian. I found my answers. I am no longer a Christian because of the horrible doubts that history casts upon the character of Jesus – and the slight probability of the existence of god as is clearly demonstrated by several of the sciences.
This is barely a glimpse of life as a believer, but is the essence of my story.
Great story!…Most of my life has been running away from “religion”,and “christians”,as they tend to wanna get in God’s way
My faith is a marathon, {26 miles},it is not a sprint!
My journey with God gives me a purpose to do. In His creation I see the outside and inside. I have a responsibility to be apart of not just the outside, the inside of God’s creation too. When I search for Jesus, I see God’s authority for His creation. His will is all encompassing. There is always work in His creation to do. I find Jesus is the foundation (solid rock) of His creation. He exist for truth. His truth is up close and personal. I see He feels, gets angry, shows compassion, laughs, and judges in His creation. I’ve learned He holds the “seal” of truth in His creation.
In moments of quiet and solitude and fishing,my realtionship with God is refreshed.
Somewhat of a “contemplative,monastic moment”
…”You can not give away,that which you do not have”
Brano. So how do you determine who is a credible scholar? Is it whoever happens to agree with your opinion? Ferrell Till has pissed off a lot your heroes. All you can say is that his work is not credible. Brilliant.
@Marina,lol,I don’t think that itis that simple!
If you could show me a list of Scholars,that are synonomous with Till,We could probably go further!?
One man’s “opinions” mean little to me
Brano,
Those temporary breaks we take for our Lord Jesus are so refreshing. I knew a wonderful man that loved to fish. He shared with me how he would talk to our Lord in those moments. He was one of the good giants in my life.
Take care today and Godbless.