A tenacious reader has been doing some digging. Bless you.
As have others on the real estate topic. Bless you too.
Before I get to Chelsea Road there are videos up of Ralph Rutledge’s 70th birthday party. 7 of them. This would have been at the peak of Gordon Driver’s alleged scam of of Crossroads Christian Communications, a year before it comes to public attention.
This is the core group of Crossroads, who have been together and stood together through the dreaming, building and working. And they are still together.
What did Ralph Rutledge do to get dismissed from Queensway Cathedral?
You’ll see who I believe to be David Rutledge in the first few frames and giving orders to the person using the camera. He calls Ralph Rutledge dad.
In this second 17 second clip you’ll see Ralph Rutledge’s brother in law.
And in the third, Gordon Williams and Norm Maclaren, long time hosts of 100 Huntley Street.
Ralph Rutledge was also a host of 100 Huntley.
You’ll also see Ralph Rutledge’s brother in law and sister.
To my next point for investors.
There are some stunning homes on Chelsea Road Killbride Ontario.
a) This is Chelsea Road Productions, 6427 Chelsea Rd; a studio and the home of Bruce Stacey, son in law of David Mainse. I don’t have a ground picture, you can click on the link and see it on Google satellite.
Chelsea Road Productions also has space at the Crossroads Christian Centre.
b) There have been persistent rumours Reynold Mainse was selling or had sold his home because of being named as a point person in US court documents for Gordon Driver/Axcess. The board statement referred to this as “certain matters in the personal lives” and ”related to a financial investment matter.”
Lorne Jackson, president of the Canadian National Christian Foundation (CNCF), told CC.com
that he believed the Mainse brothers to be men of integrity. He said they both had taken training from the CNCF’s ‘Advisors with a Purpose’ program, which attempts to equip financial advisors and ministry leaders with tools to deal wisely with investment decisions. Canadian Christianity
There are currently two up for sale on Chelsea Road, one could be a Mainse home, I’m asking readers to confirm. or provide what they know in the comment section.
This home pictured to the right is listed as a Freeholder at 6424 Chelsea Road, and has not yet been sold. The asking price is about 948 thousand dollars and the several thousand square feet home sits on two acres. Is this Reynold Mainse home?
c) This home has been sold.
Is this a Mainse family home? Like the other, it is quite large, between 6 and 7 thousand square feet at 6419 Chelsea Rd.
There are other Axcess investors who are not second generation TV hosts who have also been devesated, wiped out along with their families and losing their homes in the second wave of investors. I wonder if their homes will sell for just under a million dollars.
Gordon Driver rented a home just up the road off highway 6, near the Ron Mainse home a few years ago, 2005 or 2006 in neigbouring recollection.
In May of 2009 an representative for the property owner went to the home and found a court order on the door. Neighbours said Gordon Drive left around March 2009 to go to California and that the home had been broken into and a safe tossed down the stairs.
My hope is viewers, donors, stakeholders, investors, families and friends of investors who do - or do not - live in enclaves in exclusive neighbourhoods, facing the lose of their homes, dreams, security and hope for their futures and who have not been acknowledged by Crossroads Christian Communications, will take a good look above and ask the questions they need to ask.
From a reader and commenter:
Published 3 months, 3 weeks ago 37 commentsYet they (the Board of CCCI) have seen fit not to express any pastoral care or concern for the investors who have lost so much and some have lost everything.
…If there is no smoke and no fire then to the Board of CCCI why not stand by the Mainse brothers and make the pronouncement publicly of their innocence and stop this agonizing trial of these men and their family by public opinion?
That surely would be the right thing to do? Surely?
There are wives, children and extended family caught in the vortex of this very human situation – and they have doubtless been affected in ways that have no doubt hurt deeply.
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The answer to your question regarding Ralph Rutledge is a sticky one. The story has always been that he admitted to a homosexual relationship with a man in the congregation. If you google “Ralph Rutledge” it will lead to many links that suggest the same thing.
I had always heard that he came clean, confessed and repented on his own instead of fessing up after being caught. Always thought it was a shame Queensway wiped him clean off their radar. I had heard there was no mention of him in a recent anniversary service and though I have not searched around the Queensway site thoroughly, apparently he doesn’t show up there either.
I wonder if the PAOC ever thought about working with him, instead of giving up on him?
Jesus said, “….those who wear fine clothes live in king’s palaces”, implying that His servants don’t. Irregardless of the legal situation, it’s an awful conflict of interest for ministry or church leaders to be involved in money-making schemes, which leads to enormous spiritual repercussions – this might actually be the reason everyone is so quiet about this, they’ve fallen asleep, which Jesus said would happen shortly before His appearing – they’re not clear that there is anything wrong with this since they have also been brought to believe by carnal spiritual leaders that there is nothing wrong with carnality and the pursuit of luxury and wealth – however God says, “the pagans do these things”. I used to believe this false gospel of the pursuit of “prosperity” too until the Lord graciously delivered me through a careful reading of the book of Matthew. If anyone is unclear about this, I urge you to lay aside everything you think you know, and read the book of Matthew carefully and meditatively as though you’ve never read it before, and allow the word of God to speak to you with the help of the Holy Spirit. And don’t delay, He is coming soon! “It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.” The eye of the needle was a small opening at the city gate that one had to enter the city by at times the gates were closed – in order for a traveller to get his camel through, the camel had to first be divested of his burden of earthly goods and then had to creep through the eye of the needle on his knees. Is anyone preaching this these days from the pulpits of the church that is about to spewn out? We ignore scripture at our peril….
I must disagree with Therese about the money-making
schemes since it hasn’t been proven.
I do find it particularly galling that these people live so
extravagantly and do so on the funds from their
followers.
Wouldn’t a more modest lifestyle be more appropriate?
At least, that would keep in line with the viewers’ expec-
tations.
But such high-flown life in the lap of luxury is not worthy
of such a humber person as a minister or faith leader.
They must be equating their value to the same lifestyle
of the Archbishop of Toronto for the Roman Catholic
Church who has a home supplied.
The Anglican Archbishop of Canada lives in his own home
and commutes to the office just like the rest of us.
Doesn’t the Christian example suggest modesty in manners?
And what do many evangelists do? They forget that element.
I must disagree with Therese about the money-making
schemes since it hasn’t been proven. Torontonian
So do you think that Chelsea Road productions was an insider money making schemes that only benefited those who were connected by family to David Mainse?
It’s a given that the Mainse’s invested with Gordon Driver – even without the California legal documents alluding to them, the guilty behaviour of Crossroads attests to it – if they had not been involved in some way there would have been no need to pull them from the program and hide them away from the public, and instead of vague and obscure speeches they would have just plainly stated that they had nothing to do with Driver’s investments. I don’t doubt their father knew about it too – if they thought they had stumbled on a great way to make lots of money, it would be surprising and unusual if they didn’t tell Dad and everyone close to them all about it. This kind of thing is going on within many churches/ministries now – I discovered to my dismay not that long ago, that the church I was attending for a while had some kind of marketing thing going on the side selling some kind of health products – the pastor too. Who do you suppose would most likely get “promoted” to certain positions within that church? Do you see the potential for conflict of interest there and how it taints the spiritual food being served to the flock?
Reynolds lives in Grimsby, drives a normal car into work, and wears pretty normal clothes.
Nice fantasy but almost every comment you have made is moot because you don’t have the facts anywhere close to reality.
Since you are all fond of quoting the Bible and talking about Christian ethics – wouldn’t telling the truth be a good start for yourselves? And of course if you don’t know the truth I believe there is a verse or to that speaks to gossiping.
Absolutely!
Hi Northern Bear:
Yes, Reynold Mainse lives in the Grimbsy region.
I’m not going to violate their privacy by putting up their homes and exactly what they are worth.
What facts do you think are missing?
100+ investors
14 million dollars
US civil court action against Gordon Driver
Approximately 30 investors in the first wave, possibly 30 more ‘baby investors’
David Rutledge named by OSC
Ron and Reynold thrown off-air by management, their losses were significant
Ongoing US and Canadian investigation
No legal proof they weren’t point people for Axcess (intent is a significant factor in investigation)
The losses of people they suggested invest with Axcess which far out weigh theirs
Role of leadership of charities and responsibilities
A forensic audit indicates no money was taken out of the charity
No one knows what investment money was put in.
To echo what Therese points out, you can read an online post about Gordon Driver getting a position at Crossroads years ago because his mom made a substantial donation.
Do you believe asking questions and seeking answers is gossip?
Hit the contact button and email me, if I’ve written something that is incorrect you are welcome to point out errors and they will be corrected.
There certainly are verses which speak to gossip, if you’d like to get into them, you start, we can examine them carefully.
First though, I’m curious. What do you define as ‘normal’?
Northern Bear – The truth is exactly what people here are trying to get at. It’s unfortunate that they are having to work so hard to find out the truth themselves, since Huntley St. doesn’t seem to want to tell it. I must say, it came across to me as very arrogant and self-centred of David Mainse when he tried to intimidate viewers into silence by telling them not to gossip or speculate when he was interviewed by Jim Cantelon over the phone during the program…..doesn’t he realize his obligation to the people who support this ministry in prayer, volunteering and financial sacrifice, and their need and their right to be informed? It was shocking to see – they owe him silence, and he and his family owe them nothing??? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this abusive behaviour?
Dear brother, if you have any revelation from the word of God about what constitutes gossip, I wish you would share it, because I honestly struggle with understanding where to draw the line between gossip and shining a light into the darkness when it concerns a public ministry….it can be the grace of God when all else has failed, to help jolt us out of our deception back to reality when we suddenly see ourselves through the eyes of truth….I hope and pray they read these blogs, and realize what they need to realize to get back on track. No ministry is an island – we are certainly accountable to God, but shouldn’t the church be monitoring itself from within? Or should we leave that to the lost public, who always seem to cotton on to our hypocrisy before we do? I do pray for wisdom about these things…
Briefly to clarify… my comment “absolutely” shown in (7) above was in agreement with Therese in her comment in (5) above.
It is interesting that when the voice of accountabilty, in the context of ministry leadership, seeks to be heard it is often hung, drawn and quartered by the very same well intended and protective misguided troops whose very interests the voice of accountability seeks to serve.
Ministry leaders are perceived to be “under attack” when in all probability God is orchestrating the circumstances to expose whatever needs to be exposed.
God has all the time in the world to do what He wants to do. No attempt by man or woman to hide will succeed. That’s a given. If ministry leaders have not conducted their office faithfully and not looked after the people then it is a given that it’s just a matter of time for God to deal with him/her one way or another. Whether they choose to come clean or not. God will deal with them.
Equally, if ministry leaders have conducted their office faithfully and honourably to the Glory of God and have cared for the people then in times of false accusation and rumour it is sobering to note that God will often deal with the false accusers and rumour mongers very severely. Again, in His own time and in His own way.
There is a warning in all of this for us all. That said, if questions need to be asked then they should be asked and for all the right reasons. This is not gossip. This is the healthy functioning of accountability.
When questions are asked in the context of ministry leadership then surely all the more there is a wonderful opportunity to show grace and openess to each and all that would have a sweetness about it that would attract people to the Gospel message like nectar atracts the humming bird.
When there is spiritual bullying and a pick’n'mix, non contextual application of Scripture by ministry leaders, the people are brow beaten and often broken, defaulting to the lockdown and protect imperatives that are impressed on them by these bullying leaders. Yes, bullying leaders who run from the voice of accountability and use their power and influence to wrongly convince the people that the voice of accountability is in fact “gossip.”
When the lemming shouts to his fellows “let’s go” and jumps off the cliff, hundreds and hundreds of lemmings perish as they also jump…because not one of them stopped to ask “what’s going on; why are we doing this?” They simply followed.
BD is right to set out the known facts and to ask the questions that need to be asked.
Silence is not golden. Silence is not next to Godliness. Jesus did not shirk from asking the hard questions nor dealing with the hard situations.
Are we lemmings, misguided but well intended troops or will we use the brains and giftings, including discernment, that God has given us to ask the questions that need to be asked?
For those in ministry leadership, they would do well to ensure they are working in the light and ready, able and willing to answer the hard questions that the voice of accountability seeks to ask.
The voice of accountability ulimately is from God and nothing less than truthful answers will do.
Very well said Tim, that helps clarify things for me too…. and God bless all you men here who are awake and standing on guard for the gospel of Jesus Christ in this late hour !
1TM 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
2 Peter 2:14 …They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 2:15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
Northern Bear You can say all that you want about the integrity of Reynold Mainse but the bible doesn’t have nice words to say about people who pursue money and have a heart trained in covetous practices?
Bene D.
======
My comments were related to this post and I was not intending to discuss all of the different blog posts that you have made.
Specifically I was referring to comments like “I do find it particularly galling that these people live so extravagantly …” and “… life in the lap of luxury …” and also “ … those who were fine clothes …”. These are unfounded comments based on a fantastical false assumption that Reynold (and others) are wealthy.
Bene, if you really do know where Reynold lives, as do I, then you know full well that neither of the houses pictured in your post are where he lives and that he does not live on that street. Further you would know that he lives in a 400,000 something house – pretty normal from where I come from.
Therese
======
I believe it is fine to “shine a light” on something. In some cases it is important to shine a light. BUT if you do that you need to make sure that you draw NO conclusions until you have hard facts. You also need to make sure that you are clear with what is known to be true and what is speculation. If you draw conclusions and then repeat them to someone else, and those conclusions are based on speculation or lies, then you are gossiping. If you pass on something as fact when it is really just speculation then this is also gossiping. For example Torontonian said “… I do find it particularly galling that these people live so extravagantly and do so on the funds from their followers …”. He has assumed something as fact which is not true (aka they do not live extravagantly), and then has drawn a conclusion. A conclusion which is as false as the lie it is based on. This is gossip and this is why it is damaging.
It is pretty simple.
Or look at it this way; everyone put their real name, home address and phone number on your postings. Then go ahead and make your posts knowing that if you make false and damaging statements about someone that you open yourself up to legal action. I think that will help sharpen your definition of gossip.
Many people have wondered why the main stream media are not picking up this story more. It is because they can only report on real facts and there are precious few of those. If mainstream media did stories anywhere close to this they would be taken to court.
Thank you for your heartfelt response Northern Bear but I would beg to differ with you when it comes to your point regarding main stream media.
Main stream media reports on speculation all the time. Take the Imagine Adoption case for example. There has been and will continue to be, speculation all over the place. Many mainstream media outlets had stories and interviews from parents “speculating” what happened to Imagine. It has been all over the television/radio/newspapers for the past two weeks.
Facts mixed with questions. And why air/print/post speculation? I believe for two reasons. One because there was little to no communication from the source. And two because there was interest in the story from the public.
I would humbly and respectfuclly submit that what is going on with 100 Huntley Street and CTS has had little media coverage because CTS has lost some of it’s influence. It’s audience is aging. And, from what I have seen, it has done little to appeal to youth, young adults or keep up with social media. To be honest, I think there are very few Canadians that really care. Even, dare I say, few Christian Canadians.
I am sure that over the years, their ministry has had a hand in enriching many people’s walk with Christ. Davd Mainse was a pillar for Evangelical Canada. I believe that God still does use that media to reach a certian section of our population.
But I think the silence about this topic from the media speaks more to Huntley’s loss of influence than it does to the fear of covering speculation.
Northern Bear:
I would encourage you to respond to BD as he invited you so to do in (8) above.
To your point:
“You also need to make sure that you are clear with what is known to be true and what is speculation. If you draw conclusions and then repeat them to someone else, and those conclusions are based on speculation or lies, then you are gossiping. If you pass on something as fact when it is really just speculation then this is also gossiping.”
I agree, as would most thinking and sensing people.
In the current thread there is a broader context, beyond the subject issue but speaking more generally, as articulated in (10) above that seeks to speak of the need for the voice of accountability to be heard in our time.
It ought to be important to us all to ensure that we are careful not to superimpose the label of “gossip” upon the call for accountability when it cries out from time to time.
Rather than the unfortunate and rather unhelpful tenor of some of the communications expressed in this blog and elsewhere it would be refreshing if we could all work towards agreeing that if openness and accountability are being given their rightful place then resolution, repentance and forgiveness may be embraced to the Glory of God and the advancement of the Kingdom.
The next step is ensuring openness and accountability have their
rightful place. Gossip has no place in the due process as articulated in (10) above.
Northern Bear:
I’ve asked investors to comment, and I decided they could comment anonymously.
You certainly are welcome to disagee with my decision, and you are doing so anonymously.
I can appreciate a 400 thousand something home is normal where you live, I’m sure you can appreciate it isn’t normal where others live.
Many Crossroad donors certainly wouldn’t consider that normal, many would. I think that speaks about us and our expectations.
And I’m sure you can appreciate Axcess investors live in the area mentioned in the post, and in that financial bracket.
29 media outlets carrying mislabelled copy is dismal, let’s not pretend it isn’t.
Using the 10:1 ratio that would be 290 in the US.
It’s also dismal Crossroads didn’t bother asking for a correction or making one themselves.
Media coverage or lack thereof is not much of an indicator of anything.
Are ministry choices around this event more relevant if a national outlet does an in-depth?
I can appreciate your answer to that question would probably be no.
The Mainse and Rutledge families don’t live as ostentatiously as some of their US counterparts.
There are many stories wrapped up in this event, 100 investors, their families, their friends, their experience, their perceptions, how Crossroads Christian Communications chose to manage a crisis, how religious communities are defrauded, how people perceive Canadian televangelism, what type of accountability a religious media organization has to the public, is expected to have…
As for your definition of gossip, thank you. Your comment earlier encouraged me to do a study on what the bible has to say.
A gossip is someone who has priviledged information, and tosses it out to people who have no business knowing it. They tend to do it to build themselves up, tear someone down and make themselves look or feel special.
It’s about intent.
About the same as someone in leadership giving others in your sphere of influence investment tips.
Goes to intent.
Gossips tend not to own up, tend to blame others.
Rather like leaders who say others are spreading gossip when their organization make the news in a way they don’t feel or believe is favourable to them.
Walter your comment has been deleted, off topic – BD
Walter:
“100 Huntley Street and CTS think they are great and are doing a great work but their viewer numbers as well as their programs including old reruns are a joke! ”
Would you give put some substance to your statement please?
What are the viewer numbers?
Not made up by management to make themselves look good during fundraisers, not what potential audience is; I’m asking eyeballs.
CTS isn’t part of the equation, I’m asking about 100 Huntley Street.
They don’t disclose, they are not part of any measure I’m aware of such as BBM. There is no disclosure of share, demographics I know about.
Tim:
I appreciate your generousity of spirit, desire in and faith to see God work.
I think between David Mainse and Jim Cantelon in the past week, 100 Huntley Street has formulated it’s response (it’s corporate one voice). You summed it up in two words, “under attack.”
I hope I’m wrong.
E:
This looks interesting, available August 3rd. Bob Garfield: “The Chaos Scenario.” I think his term Listonomics is tacky but the premise and research is sound:
“…neither marketers nor any other institution accustomed to dictating from the top can do so for much longer. Garfield prescribes a series of measures in the digital-technology and social-media realms for not only listening to the “group formerly known as the audience,” but treating them as stakeholders with much to contribute to a brand, and to every aspect of the economy and society. ”
Struck me because of the use of ’stakeholders’ in the Crossroads July 17th pr.
You may have seen this video about media and communication from 2007: Did you know?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcfrLYDm2U
2:45 in stunned me. Did you know:
Radio took 38 years to reach an audience of 50 million
TV took 13 years
The web took 4
I don’t know think Crossroads is able to adapt.
You are right there are no viewers numbers on most religious programming because the industry considers them to be insignificant! From a former staff member of 100 Huntley Street I was told that by their own estimation it’s was very low! And the web sites hits of even the best religious websites is less than 100,000 hits per month and few get of 10,000.
And I believe that on one of your websites one of the spokesman said 20,000 supporters of Crossroads were not complaining and that is a very insignificant number of supporters for a Canadian outreach?
Wow – that is a lot of postings. I guess I asked for that. I will make several smaller posts instead of one larger one.
Bene
====
The average price in 2008 in the GTA was $379,489 according to the Toronto Real Estate board. Read here: http://www.torontorealestateboard.com/consumer_info/market_news/news2008/nr120408.htm
I do not know where you live, but around here this is “normal”. Unless you have reason to believe that the investors are below average then Reynold’s house price is normal.
Your definition of gossip is far too limited. Have a read here: http://www.bibleistrue.com/qna/qna74.htm for a definition of the various Greek and Hebrew words that are translated to gossip. Note the emphasis on slander in these definitions.
Tim
===
I had responded to (8) above by saying that my comments were limited to these blog item and not the other ones related 100 Huntley.
That said, I will take the opportunity to respond to each item Bene posted in #8. I really wish this data entry screen allowed for use of tables.
100 Investors
14 Million Dollars
US civil court action against Gordon Driver
David Rutledge named by OSC
Ongoing US and Canadian investigation
=============================
Fact: These seem to be established facts by the CFTC in their various court documents. Short of being proven in trial these appear to be facts.
Ron and Reynold thrown off-air by management, their losses were significant
==============================
Speculation: We have no idea what their losses were if any.
No legal proof they weren’t point people for Axcess (intent is a significant factor in investigation)
==============================
Speculation: and close to laughable. There is no legal proof that they did not walk on the moon either. There would be an infinite number of things for which there is no legal proof – none of which would be useful as fact.
The losses of people they suggested invest with Axcess which far out weigh theirs
==============================
Speculation: We have no idea what the losses were. In a ponzi scheme, some of the investors make money so as to create the illusion of a successful investment. We have no idea what the mix is. Perhaps this group of investors was near the beginning and therefore made money.
A forensic audit indicates no money was taken out of the charity
==============================
Fact: I would agree this appears to be fact given that the management of Crossroads has stated this.
No one knows what investment money was put in.
====================================
Speculation: No one knows how many drops of water are in the ocean – but what is the point of this? Since charities do not ask the source of money when someone makes a donation, I believe the only person that knows is the donor. So this statement is vacuously true.
Bene asked “Do you believe asking questions and seeking answers is gossip?”
=====================================
The problem is that the blog posts are not limited to just asking questions and seeking answers.
For example consider post #17 above:
“Saints talk to each other while the Mainse are silent and run away because they are not saints! So how can they hope God will defend them? He will not!”
Walter is making wild assumptions. We have no idea who the Mainse’s are talking to. There is no sign they are running away. Walter appears to have an inside track on the state of their souls by saying they are not saints. And now apparently Walter feels that he can speak for what God will or will not do.
What type of light is Walter shining?
Therese
======
I liked your comment about shining light into problem situations. I said before and still agree this is important.
I have something additional for you to think about. Consider the example of a church or ministry that is disciplining a leader or pastor. Most churches in their constitution, or charter, or governing laws (whatever they call them) will have a process for investigating a potential failing of a leader and then disciplining the leader. In other words, they have a process for “shining light”.
Very often this follows a biblical approach of taking one or two witnesses to discover, and if needed confront the leader. In a church this often looks something like 2 or 3 Elders or Deacons will investigate the allegation and speak with the leader. The discipline stage, if needed, often is done by a slightly larger group – perhaps the entire board deacons or all Elders.
Imagine the chaos if churches just let all of their members get together and start investigating a problem and then decide on discipline. It would probably look more like a lynching.
What these church processes have in common is:
1) A small group of people (more than one). The important bit is that it is a small group larger than one so that it provides accountability for the people involved in investigating.
2) A group of men or women with known character, known spiritual values, and known motivation.
3) A group of people who are in a position of authority over the leader. This bit is important because authority is a two edged sword. Yes they have authority over the leaders, but God also holds the Elders accountable for the authority entrusted to them.
The challenge with trying to shine light on something in a blog is that it lacks:
1) Accountability. Blogs are anonymous and therefore there is no accountability.
2) We do not know the character of the people posting nor their intent.
3) The people in the blog have no authority over the Mainse brothers or Crossroads.
You should consider that the bible is very specific on authority and respecting it. That doesn’t mean you cannot question it.
The board of Crossroads is the authority in this case. It is the board that will be held accountable by God for their actions. You can question them all you want. You can disagree with what they are doing. But they are the authority. Neither they nor the Mainse brothers are accountable to a blog.
There is a reason that churches have well defined Biblical processes for handling problems like this. It is to avoid some of the problems visible in this blog. SOME of the blog posts have strayed very far and have maligned the character and actions of some good people based on half truths and lies.
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.. – Thomas Jefferson Letter To Francis Hopkinson, Paris Mar. 13, 1789
Northern Bear you are defining and framing your own argument and parameters to suit yourself!
“The board of Crossroads is the authority in this case.” Since when?
“churches have well defined Biblical processes for handling problems like this.” What Biblical problems and processes since you are implying there are no problems?
Is it shutting up and telling everybody to obey and respect the Mainse because they were appointed by God to be gods?
And what are the bloggers talking about here?
About nepotism, partiality, favoritism, love of money, ‘Nicolatians” and what else by the Mainse who pretend to be a some thing they are not!
They preach to the world and get their tax exemption from the world but then they are only accountable to God? How convenient and the brethren don’t count because after all they are super anointed gods appointed by men not God!
And of course there is no talk of biblical restitution by the Mainse brothers and wives for the loss, hurt and pain they caused to others in their foolishness and greed pursuing the god of mammon – money as the Mainse are not responsible for anything as they are very sincere God serving fools?
So Northern Bear do you think we are that stupid that we cannot think for ourselves and you have to tell us how to think? It seems that way!
Hi Walter, Your comment has been removed. Personal attacks on others are not acceptable – BD
Wow, you have no life.
You spent all this time grabbing information that got you no where.
HAHA
Walter,
““The board of Crossroads is the authority in this case.” Since when?”
You seem to disagree that the board of Crossroads has authority over Crossroads, then who does?
““churches have well defined Biblical processes for handling problems like this.” What Biblical problems and processes since you are implying there are no problems?”
Quite the opposite. There is a problem and in cases such as these churches follow a Biblical model for reaching resolution (and restoration). I am suggesting that any ministry should follow a like process and that by definition this could not be done in a blog.
“… but then they are only accountable to God?”
They are accountable to many other groups and not only God. They are accountable to the people and groups in authority over them placed their by God. That includes governments, laws made by man, and the board of Crossroads. They are not accountable to this blog.
This by the way applies to you and I as well. We are acountable to several differents groups and people.
Northern Bear:
It is indeed clear that the Crossroads Board are the first line authority in respect of the day to day operations of the ministry. As is the case for all charities, not for profits and private foundations, etc. That is simply a matter of fact and an imperative in law.
The accountability that is incumbent on the Board goes up and down…upwards to CRA and of course ultimately to God – and downwards in a simply hierarchical sense to the donors and the general public.
I do not think anyone is suggesting that charities are responsible to blogs.
Responsible comments in blogs can express a stifled cry for accountability and be a catalyst for change.
Irresponsible comments can be disconcerting to say the least and again most thinking and sensing people would entirely agree with you.
As the Crossroads Board have seen fit to maintain an aura of mystique around their particular dilema it perhaps then is no surprise that questions continue to be asked and not only in this blog.
It ought not to be so.
Walter and Northern Bear, it is great to see Christians talking. If it takes a blog, so be it! Thank you Bene for the outlet! All of you are excellent writers, with amazing opinions.
In fact, Northern Bear, the Mainses are accountable to this blog. You see, this blog represents the general public and they too are entitled to an opinion. In a blog, you and Walter can express your opposing opinions in a free manner. How great is that? Why hide? A lot of times Christians are afraid to speak out against each other. This is a healthy way for Christians to come together and give their opinion. I think it’s great! Both you and Walter have the most amazing insights.
I for one, find a blog, a safe venue for Christians, to finally have dialogue. Let’s get at the truth together.
p.s. Northern Bear are you a lawyer, plus a friend of Ron/Ren???? Are you a paid blogger? in any case, your opinions are valued. Walter, so are yours! Thanks Bene for the outlet!
Walter, your comment has been edited to comply with site policy. BD
2COR 6:3 We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed.
JMS 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
JMS 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
JMS 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
JMS 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Good discussion.
Re: Accountability – it is a given we are accountable to God. But since He put us here none of us are exempt from the law.
It will be interesting to see how an investigation by fraud investigators pans out.
Secrecy, silence, deflection, spiritualizing problems tends to be common among performance-based faiths.
If investors were defrauded then hard questions must be answered. If not, then why is the leadership so defensive?
Northern Bear:
“Speculation: We have no idea what their losses were if any.”
I hear you referring to the dollar loss of Ron and Reynold Mainse in Axcess investments, correct me if I misunderstood you.
Well, yeah, I do know for one, but I’m not posting it.
I’m not posting because I think it’s up to investors or investigators to disclose.
We are talking about religious affinity fraud.
The response in performance driven evangelicism is overwhelmingly toxic and abusive.
Both Ron and Reynold took a course for leaders and advisors on investment and wise stewardship. They got conned anyway.
So did a lot of people.
This discussion around religious affinity fraud speaks to what we think and believe is valuable.
We are speaking to what we believe is the responsibility of community, from the inner circle through to the public.
We are speaking about behavior of a public media charity, corporately and it’s individuals.
We are speaking to loss; material, emotional, spiritual, public, communal.
The hope is to speak toward education, justice, restoration, growth.
Given this is a public discussion I expect varying levels of maturity, varying emotions and motivations, and I believe people contributing to this discussion are valuable.
I see information being shared, traded and pondered.
Ron and Reynold are the public faces of alleged Axcess Automation/Fund loss, let’s not forget they are victims.
Until I see proof otherwise, they are named – and remain named – as point people/victimizers.
I’ve been clear I don’t believe from any information available there was criminal intent.
That is not my call, that is the OSC’s job.
If the OSC isn’t doing their job, then the US prosecutors can make the appropriate distinctions in the Driver trial.
David Rutledge is also a public face, I’m clear his behavior remains an unknown for me, and I’m interested in what others know and have to say.
I’ve been clear that I think how Crossroad management and the board handled taking hosts off-air was the antithesis of relational accountability and publicly counterproductive to the organizations stated purpose.
The board statements:
June 4:
…”focus their energies on certain matters in their personal lives”
June 12:
“…please be assured that this is a personal matter involving Ron and Reynold Mainse outside of their ministry with Crossroads.”
June 17:
“…we have determined that no CCCI funds whatsoever were directed to Gordon Driver or to any of his corporate entities for any supposed investments.”
Ron and Reynold Mainse not losing financially is speculation?
I beg to differ, they are 2 of 100 people who have experienced more than just financial loss.
I think Tim addressed accountability far better than I have.
As for gossip/slander, thanks for the resource.
Gossip flourishes in the absence of information and spreads in a vacuum of ignorance. Even in greek and hebrew, intent factors in.
I agree with you about blogs and accountability.
a) You’d be a fool to accept what I say as final authority or as I explore Axcess/Crossroads – authoritative. Do your homework, and arrive at your own conclusions.:^) Feel free to share them.
b) You’d be a fool to accept my opinion of my character, others can testify to strengths and weaknesses. You know to use your discernment as much as text enables you
c) I think these 10 responsibilities of a non-profit (charity) board speaks to the hierarchy of members accountability.
http://www.boardsource.org/Knowledge.asp?ID=3.368
Why not try this quick test on board communication/transparency and see how you do.
http://tiny.cc/y31xL
I also agree with others in this discussion that until such time as this media organization choses to transparently address a public event which has impacted ‘who’: employees, donors, stakeholders viewers, and the public, the event and the ‘how’ will be discussed here.
Walter:
Thanks for the reminder that 20 thousand came from the CEO.
CP July 2:
“Any investments made by Ron and Reynold Mainse were “personal and private” in nature and did not draw from the ministry’s 20,000-plus pool of donors, said Doug McKenzie, CEO of Crossroads Christian Communications.”
That’s donors, not viewers.
We have no idea if this pool is regular donors, one time donors, occasional donors.
Not a clue.
A pool is not a measurement of viewers for me.
Sorry.
If for example I donate to the Salvation Army and they run a TV special, doesn’t mean I’ll watch.
As a one time donor, I’m in their pool.
Doesn’t make me a viewer.
We don’t know how many viewers 100 Huntley Street has over any time frame, network or platform. All I’ve ever seen them give is potential.
I have enjoyed the two websites you had mentioned and know that all Canadian Christian non profit charitable corporation should take note of them!
But my my point of view based on the fact we have no real numbers concerning 100 Huntley viewers and reports I have been given by others they are for all practical purposes almost dead if not useless!
And with the religious affinity fraud scandal by the Mainses, their dynasty is almost over.
Mind you I have not found many Pentecostal indirectly family owned and run ministries to have any real integrity and were full of nepotism among other things!
I remember when PTL fell apart, one string at a time until the whole ball of yarn came rolling down the aisle. You have picked at many loose threads. I have to ask where the Toronto Sun and the Toronto Star have been on this story. They have the journalists and the lawyers to protect them from libel. I see CBC finally published a story as well as a paper in PEI. BLOGS cannot take the ball and kick it into the net. For that you need a team of reporters, a legal department and courageous editors. This is a story waiting to explode. Your work has convinced me of it. I have followed Huntley Street from its beginnings and admired much of its work. However these storm clouds must be examined very thoroughly or the Ministry and CTS are toast. I’m afraid the smug PR job that Crossroads has put forward won’t satisfy most people who have legitimate questions about the events of the past two months.
Thank you David.
Here is the timeline including media coverage.
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2009/06/16/100-huntley-streetcrossroads-alleged-ponzi-scheme-timeline/
Media does need to take this story and use their resources.
Blogs have run with the ball, that’s a good way to say it and as a blogger I owe a great deal to ethical, concerned readers who have kept their eye on the harm to 100 investors and questions on Crossroads behavior.
Gordon Driver is back in a US courtroom the first week of August.
It’s as good a time as any for media to explore Crossroads involvement, decisions, PR etc.
Walter stated: “The Church is the body of Christ which includes all saints and Walter Kambulow and not some structural autonomous organization which doesn’t exist in the bible. And if the Mainse are part of the church of Jesus Christ they are accountable to the Church and Walter Kambulow!”
So very true! That these are not walking in the light is so obvious even a child could see it, but deceived believers cannot ….Northern Bear, you are talking like a carnal Christian who is still under the Law….you talk about witnesses but do not mention the most important witness of all, the witness of the Holy Spirit. Don’t you realize that it is the Lord who is trying to bring to light these very serious problems in His house? It was the Lord who opened my eyes to this very pervasive abomination within the church that He is about to spew out of His mouth, not man. God is spirit, He begets spiritual sons and daughters. People here are righteously calling for righteousness in the house of God – no-one should be joining in with those who walk in darkness, and helping to hide such sinfulness. Our loyalty should be to the Lord, not to corrupt flesh/man. Should you not rather be joining in the call for repentance and truth??? Jesus said we cannot be His disciples unless we ‘hate’ our brothers and sisters. He also said: “DO YOU BRING IN A LAMP AND PUT IT UNDER A BOWL OR A BED? INSTEAD, DON’T YOU PUT IT ON IT’S STAND? FOR WHATEVER IS HIDDEN IS MEANT TO BE DISCLOSED, AND WHATEVER IS CONCEALED IS MEANT TO BE BROUGHT OUT INTO THE OPEN. IF ANYONE HAS EARS TO HEAR, LET HIM HEAR.” (Mark 4:21-23)
Shepherds serve the sheep but the wolves that clothe themselves with so-called leadership and spiritual authority serve themselves, thinking that they serve God, in essence, this makes them false christs. Early church leaders were established as overseers, not a ruling hierarchy.
Because of nepotism and the Nicolatans attitude I don’t see the Mainses changing their behavior of circling the wagons and looking down at those sheep who would dare question them in any way!
I have not seen any Pentecostal or Charismatic ministry with these two characteristics repent possibly due to deception and arrogance and pride! !
…yes, I think you’re right, and apart from a miraculous provision of grace, most of such church leaders have too much to lose to repent – reputation, livelihood, social standing, etc,…those men who followed David in the wilderness were in the blessed state of having nothing left to lose….blessed are the poor, blessed are those who mourn, blessed are those who have a cross to bear! Jesus made himself of no reputation – well, praise God, I just really realized what that means now and I pray I may never forget it!