Talk2Action takes a look at the teachings of Tetelastai Church Pittsburgh killer George Sodini attended for 13 years before leaving in 2006. The church follows the teaching of Texas fundamentalist R.B. Thieme, Jr.
Sodini broke with Tetelestai in 2006 but his weblog writings indicate that he recently held considerable anger towards the church. As George Sodini wrote December 31, 2008,
” “Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!”, as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy shit, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven…. guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage.”
In his final weblog entry on August 3rd, 2009, written before carrying out the LA Fitness Center slaughter, Sodini wrote, “I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.” The Integrity of God was a privately published book by R.B. Thieme, Jr. and the apparent reference suggests that while George Sodini was estranged from the Tetelestai Church he was still under the influence of Thieme’s writing, which may have exacerbated Sodini’s social maladjustment and inability to meet women because of an extreme, idealistic doctrine Thieme espoused known as “right man/right woman”.
Thieme teaches ‘soul climax’ and that a woman is the property of a man ( a husband owns his wife) and that there is only one right or correct woman in the world for a man.
Talk2Action:
In his final weblog entry on August 3rd, 2009, written before carrying out the LA Fitness Center slaughter, Sodini wrote, “I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.” The Integrity of God was a privately published book by R.B. Thieme, Jr. and the apparent reference suggests that while George Sodini was estranged from the Tetelestai Church he was still under the influence of Thieme’s writing, which may have exacerbated Sodini’s social maladjustment and inability to meet women because of an extreme, idealistic doctrine Thieme espoused known as “right man/right woman”.
R.B. Thieme – Wiki
Rick Ross Cult Education Forum R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston
Robert B. Thieme, Jr. – His Ancestry, His Life. C.G. Hunt
Berachah Church
Remember these names: Heidi Overmier, 46, of Carnegie; Elizabeth Gannon, 49, of Pittsburgh; and Jody Billingsley, 38. They were killed in Sodinis spree.
Three women are in hospital are in serious condition, two are in fair condition, one woman is in stable condition and one woman has been released from hospital.
Update: The Pittsburgh area Berachah satellite church was met with media and an angry public. The leader went to police and a public statement was to be released after talking to a lawyer.
I guess this is it, the members are busy with a building project.
Update: The founder of this sect, R.B. Thieme died a few days ago – August 16, 2009. A reader points out ‘soul climax’ was never used by Thieme, the terms he did use can be found following a link in the comment section.
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This man made a choice ( his own volition/choice) to walk into a place and murder people… He is soley responsible. No one else is responsible.
there was also a furhter quote on his blog that indicated he believed that he could not be judged for his sins, and would go to heaven because Christ died for his sins. Thus he felt that his murderous deeds would not lead him to hell. This is a pernicious lie of fundamentalism that takes a twisted interpretation of Scripture
Look at the teachings of the Berachah Texas Church.
Last I read, the attendees at the offshoot Tetelastai Church were terrified. The leader spoke to police and was planning to release a statement with the church lawyer today. I haven’t found it.
They have been receiving theats, that is wrong.
We are our brothers keeper.
Do we ban mentally ill people from attending church, bible studies and church fellowship, do we speak out when we believe they are a threat to themselves and others?
Do we get them professional help?
Yes, he made the choice, and while he had mental, anti-social problems – was there anyone in his life and former faith group who saw and understood the garbage in/garbage out vulnerability?
He posted at militia sites,, had difficulty with Obama (“The Black Man”) in the White House, hated liberal media.
Yes, he pulled the trigger, bashing this fundamentalist sect or the Catholic Church isn’t going to bring back Heidi Overmier, Elizabeth Gannon and Jody Billingsley. Mrs. Sobini is grieving, six families are maintaining vigil in hospitals.
Will a sect learn how toxic dominionism and extra biblical performance based burdens are for followers? I doubt it.
We have become desensitized to others, to the toxic effects of sects and the pernacious of scripture twisting on vulnerable people.
I think you’ve implied entirely too much responsibility to the church, but in any case, I think it serves as a reminder for teachers to teach carefully. I call what happened here ‘ear itching’‘.
My apology: I attempted to comment with a bum link! I think you imply too much responsibility on the part of the church. Sodini heard what he wanted to hear.
Hi Josh: BD here. Your link. thank you. I don’t disagree Sodini heard what he wanted to hear, this is also a cautionary tale to test scripture, recognize and care for members of the congregation with mental, emotional and social problems.
I don’t get it. What church did Lee Harvey Oswald attend? What church did Adolph Hitler attend? Why does a church get blamed for the actions of a man who obviously did not follow the teachings of Christ? Before anyone judges anything through hearsay (which is what is going on here with some) they should find out what it is of they speak. This man needed help. He tried church. Its was not the church’s fault of what he did. That is, unless the church is producing a number of murderers from its ranks. God help the church that had a person who commits a crime, attend. Some here pull the trigger on the church and execute it with mental murder. Wake up. No church condones murder, nor teaches anything that encourages murder. Its people who distort the Bible who murder. Damn, you folks are idiots. You come as a mob with pitchforks and torches when it comes to Christianity. Real ignorant.
Obviously the author of above has some bias and an agenda. Using this horrible tragedy to further such. I would imagine that there is not a local church in this nation which hasn’t had some of its members move in horribly negative directions. But most – the great majority – are traveling in positive, uplifting directions. I’d imagine that this Tetelestai church is no different. Would only that the author seek out and write about some of these success stories, too. From and and all local churches! What a concept! Sadly, positive, Christ Centered activities aren’t his/her bag. DD
A crime affects a community.
Churches are communities and aren’t exempt.
How a church chooses to handle the international spotlight is up to them.
Did word come down from on high (home office in Texas) for members to get online and bible thump the messengers?
Darvin if you were part of the community which is dealing with the fallout, you have my sympathy and some understanding for your anger and attempt at guilting.
If not bear in mind the Overmier, Gannon, and Billingsley families are not going to be healing any time soon.
This man was known at this church and sat under certain teachings at this church for 13 years – unless we believe that meeting together is nothing more than a religious exercise, then of course they must bear some responsibility. Where was discernment, where was power to heal this man’s ‘issues’, where is truth and the fear of a holy God when they teach that a mass murderer will be received into heaven? At the end of 13 years in a truly Christ-centred fellowship a person would be in a better state than at the beginning if things were right, instead of so much worse that he would commit a horrible crime that he never committed before going there. It looks very much to me that he was bearing the ultimate fruit of whatever was going on at this church.
That original source of this page (Talk 2 Action) was not using the official information from the R.B. Thieme ministry. It is a work done by someone in house, and is not a work by R.B. Thieme.
http://www.jimbrettell.org/docrbt/RMANRW.doc
Here is what it says…
“The doctrines have been compiled through the gracious efforts of Bill and Amy Puryear, and were made available to the R. B. Thieme, Jr. Bible Ministries for distribution.”
It was not even a publication offered to the general public. Here is what it says:
“These doctrines are available to pastors, evangelists and missionaries, and are not for public distribution. ”
If anyone wants to see quite a different presentation, there is a copy of the real Right Man Right Woman to be found here:
http://www.mustseethisone.com/books.html
Click on “Right Man.”
It was copied to Word Pad and when doing the copying someone added colored font’s and larger type. I found it hard to read. Just go to Edit – “select all” and select smaller font size and make all black color. You will see what the publication that came from the church actually said.
There was no “soul climax” term to be found in the official book. Coalescence of souls is what R.B. Thieme always spoke of in regards to the closeness of honest love, and that’s what his church published.
The inside the house book linked to on the Talk2Action page was some sort of personal notes that was shared, but not the official publication of the R.B. Thieme ministry. It appears that some of the things it contains were personal interpretation, not what R.B. Thieme taught.
The least the author of Talk 2Action could have done was to acquire a copy of what was actually published and officially distributed to the public, rather then some inside the house publication of someone’s personal notes, which was not even to be offered to the general public. Its not a copy of what George Sodini read.
Hmmmm, the leadership are privy to doctrine and information that is different from what is fed to the sheep? That disturbs me.
I read the first few paragraphs under “Right Man” and found that disturbed me too – unbiblical, fleshly, human thinking – and the use of fear directed particularly at the young and impressionable. It’s not hard to see how people could become very mentally conflicted from sitting under this kind of teaching.
“Coalescence of souls”??? What bible is that from? It’s no more reassuring than “soul climax”. “The closeness of honest love”? Is that what the people talk about when they get together at this church? It sounds very sick to me, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some improper behaviour going on backstage.
Gene:
R.B.Theime wrote Right Man?
That goes beyond complimentarianism into misogyny and misandry.
It goes beyond literalism.
Thanks, I read it.
You are correct – I didn’t see ‘soul climax,’ I saw ‘coalescence’.
(lobe, operation Z and other obscurities)
Therese:
I don’t know if it’s even that. I’m not a theologian, but that was a bizarre read. I don’t know if you’d see much different in JW, Mormon, Scientology or other sect literature.
This is dispensationist fundamentalism, interpreted by a military authoritarian who is believed to have fudged some of his credentials.
I am surprised this is supposedly passed off as orthodoxy, it is certainly cultural in the sense of being independent etho-centric interpretation.
Don’t blame you for not finishing it, reading that was not a healthy way to start the day.
This exactly reminded me of Mormonism – I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t start telling the people who they may or may not marry pretty soon at this church, if they’re not already doing that…well this has all been such an education for me anyhow, deception morphing into cultism. Even scarier when some are now praying for the death of their enemies! What will all this look like even a few years from now? May God give us strength…
…the world inhabited by mind-controlled zombies, is that what this is all leading to? Seems like it to me.
The ‘Colonel’, the hyper-graphologist teacher, R.B. Thiemes Jr. died a few days ago.
The son has been running the group for some time.
Some people believe Thiemites (or tapers as they call themselves) are a cult. I think given their cultural and social isolation and the authoritarniansm the group accepts, the case can be made there are some sociological cult characteristics.
As for theology, yes he wandered into some serious wierdness, but maintained some core doctrine. Given there are some orthodox beliefs still held, I’m inclined to say sect.
His loaded language also theologically isolates his followers.
There is good discussion of his teaching and effects on adherants and walkaways at the Rick Ross forums and at a couple of blogs.
I can not help the fact that some here do not understand what the book is saying and distort its intentions. Just the same the source of this article was from an anti right Christianity organization http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/8/6/91718/44008 .
Hardly an objective source on any right leaning Christian group. Its out to besmirch all those who oppose abortion and gay marriage. No wonder Right man Right women would cause such thinking as this a serious reaction. Its to be expected.
The teachings of R.B. Thieme are not intended for all. No more than Peter was to go to the Gentiles, nor Paul go to the Jews. Each man has a ministry that is geared to a specific need. If you do not like the teachings of R.B. Thieme? Go find a church where you can learn and grow accordingly.
GeneZ – I don’t doubt you are very sincere, and I would like to share a passage of scripture the Lord opened my eyes to that is a strong tower of spiritual safety when we obey it:
“Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man against another.” 1 Corinth. 4:6
We see that the context here is in preferring one ‘minister’ over another. The word of God is to take precedence over any man/minister and what he may say. But fear not because the Holy Spirit himself opens the scriptures to us when we humbly allow Him and as we carry our cross. He truly has not left us as orphans…
Therese?
Going beyond what is written?
Philippians 1:9
“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more
in knowledge and depth of insight.”
That was the sin of R.B. Thieme. Knowledge leads to insight.
Therese? Do we have a list of such insights written in Scripture?
Its not going beyond what is written. Its reaping the blessing from knowledge of what is written.
These types of topics always deteriorate into such trivial arguments. It comes down to this: Some hate Thieme. Some love Thieme. Period. See you in heaven. Period.
And, add to that.. “Have a nice Day”
Why do you keep mentioning this man’s name? It’s you I’m talking to here, not him. It doesn’t matter who he is, and I know nothing about him except what I’ve seen here – I have no feeling toward this fellow at all, he could be Rumpelstiltskein for all it matters to me, but what he has written that I’ve seen here, which you take to be equal to God’s word, is not scriptural. Period. It is a product of vain human imagination. I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll say it again here – I’ve learned we must be careful to take the “whole counsel of God” on any matter. If God says in one place “…that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight” and then elsewhere He says “Do not go beyond what is written”….well then, which one do we want to ignore? I hope the answer is neither.
I can testify of revelation the Lord has given me, but always it is revelation OF HIS WORD. Sometimes He gives me insight, but always He confirms it in His word, and if we are wise we will not stand upon anything until and unless He confirms it in His word. Lots of ideas/insights may come and go from our minds, but only what He has revealed in His word can be taken to be from the Lord. Your choice, you are free to choose a man if you want to, but me I choose Jesus, the Word made flesh. Don’t you think it would be more sensible and safe to let the Author of the Book tell you what He means by what He has written, rather than a mere mortal with an active imagination and quite possibly other issues of the flesh? Believe me or not, but I can see you are in very dangerous territory brother.
Its becoming the typical again. Opting out of this current cycle of circular (whirlpool) logic.
Luke 6
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
23″Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
If a man is a truly great Bible teacher? There will be no convincing some. Its a waste of time to try.
Have a nice Day…
GeneZ
Sorry, Gene the first part of my first paragraph above sounds obnoxious, which I didn’t mean. I was trying to make a point about having this conversation with you and not R.B. Thieme, so why not just talk about the issues that we each believe, and not he himself whom I neither hate nor love since I don’t even know him. It almost seemed as though you consider he speaks for you…
Therese,
“15 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:14 am
This exactly reminded me of Mormonism – I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t start telling the people who they may or may not marry pretty soon at this church, if they’re not already doing that…well this has all been such an education for me anyhow, deception morphing into cultism. ”
I guess you had no intention in attacking the teaching? Sorry, must have read you wrong. But, the problem is. If that is the case? I still do not know how to read what you said right.
Too bad you are assuming things before you know what the facts are. One teaching (which became a focal point in this thread) was directed towards those who are blessed in a special way in marriages. I have personally a witness to such a beautiful marriage.
Yet? The Right man Right Woman was not the only teaching that the ministry presented. Realizing that not many find such a relationship, nor are interested in seeking it, many hours of teaching were provided that deal with the problems with solutions that everyday marriages do face. That never gets mentioned here, and it was made to look like that what was taught was very narrow in scope. Narrow to the point it was imbalanced. Hundreds of hours of teachings were given to deal with marriages like most people find themselves in today.
Here are some examples of how diverse the teachings were on marriage and related subjects. The teachings dealt with real problems, not only one teaching on a single ideal.
Child Abuse
Child Abuse “Unfit Parents and Tragic Childrenâ€
Child Rearing, Discipline, Manners
Christian Marriage: A Corporate Testimony
Marriage and Divorce • Ephesians (1989)
Marriage and Divorce • Revelation (1983)
Marriage: Aggressive and Responding Love
Marriage: Failure from Bitterness
Marriage, Virtue-Love in
That is far from the limited teaching on Right Man-Right Woman that speaks of a blessed relationship that only some believers will find. By no means were the teachings limited to a single ideal that we should all strive for. Posters here were blaming this one teaching on the murderer’s plight. It was misleading to do so.
Gene, I’m not sure if there’s some confusion but in #24 I was trying to better express the obnoxious-sounding (to me anyway) first part of the first paragraph in my comment #22.
And in the comment about the Mormons in #15, I was expressing that I discerned a similar cultish air between Mormon teaching and the Right Man Right Woman teaching of Thieme’s (not even similar teachings necessarily but similar in that they’re both cultish).
Anyhow, I realize nobody needs the Word-according-to-Therese anymore than they need the Word-according-to-Thieme. God bless and hope you take time apart to shut out the voices of men and read the Word for yourself, allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you, according to what is written:
“But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things….” John 14:26
“I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is not counterfeit – just as it has taught you, remain in him.” 1 John 2:26-27
Goos stuff. I dug into this guy and his church. More shocked that he attended for 13 yrs and then the church intially tried to deny him. Shame on them. Kind of like Jesus beind denied in the end. Sodini ate up hook lime and sinker what they spoon fed. He mostlikely suffered from depression. His church may not have been big on meds. Then the church threw him. What kind of a church does that without giving counsel?
When I became an adult I questioned my catholic faith and then stopped going due to a childs disability. No time. But I kept to the core beliefs but then I did some research into other faiths and changed my mind about going to another church. I also with age and wisdom realized why the catholic church does not push to study the bible. It can be translated into a persons mind so badly and give you nightmares.
I am not surprised at all that a weak person like Sodini was driven completely insane by the “brainwashing” of RB Thieme jr. It is more than likely that Sodini’s identity collapsed in on himself and after 13 years of indoctrination Sodini obviously exhibited a need to be “powerful over women” to literally own them from. Feelings of “powerlessness”, as inculcated by Thiem.
Dr. Wall wrote an entire doctoral dissertation (http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6049008/i/Thieme.pdf) on RB Thieme jr. In the dissertation by Dr. Wall , Dr Wall describes how he had to take his time out to counsel Schizophrenic thiemites.
Also the dissertation describes that Thieme abused authority (like any cult).
I personally have seen previously normal people become so dysfunctionalized by Thieme that they were turned into “labotomized robots” who bump into walls
Reciting Thieme’s words and attacked anyone who questioned Thieme’s words.
Thieme taught that Christians should be trained with a “killer instinct”.
Thieme taught that brotherly love was satanic. Which? is obviously false. Thieme’s cult attacks brotherly love with “murder in their heart”
, because brotherly love is a politically liberal term.
Thieme’s cult distorts the Word for political agenda.
I would like to direct the attention of this forum to http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,page=179
Where? Truthtesty literally trounced genez and other thiemite cult followers of RB Thieme jr., time and time again. Genez and other cult followers of Thieme will defend the cult leader RB Thieme jr forever. Just? Like any other cult followers do.
It is likely Sodini was not competent mentally to make a “choice”. This is a typical result of Thieme’s indoctrination.
Just as someone can “slip” “date rape” drugs into someones drink, I think criminal charges should be filed against Berachah (and Tetalestai if they copy Berachah) churches for their knowingly irresponsible and corrosive “date rape indoctrinations”
Genez, you know which church Hitler attended because Truthtesty showed you how RB Thieme jr used Nazi Socialist Doktor Gerhard Kittle’s greek interpretations to falsely and as a cult to attack the literal shed Blood of Christ.
Thiemites call evil good and good evil. Thiemites throw humanity under the bus and essentially dysnfuctional on the human level.
Sodini did not believe the literal shed Blood of Christ was efficacious for salvation. Dr. Chafer considered this attack on the literal shed Blood of Christ as a satanic cult.
To deny any part of Christ’s Work is a denial in part of the whole Work of Christ and it is satanic..
Truthtesty has already warned you gene z, you are doing satan’s work defending Thieme, but still? You continue this sick behaviour? Of defending your sick psycopathic cult leader? Thieme is dead genez, let it go.
Wiseasserpents
To this Forum:
genez quote:
“Therese? Going beyond what is written? Philippians 1:9“And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and morein knowledge and depth of insight.†That was the sin of R.B. Thieme. Knowledge leads to insight. Therese? Do we have a list of such insights written in Scripture? Its not going beyond what is written. Its reaping the blessing from knowledge of what is written. These types of topics always deteriorate into such trivial arguments. It comes down to this: Some hate Thieme. Some love Thieme. Period. See you in heaven. Period. And, add to that.. “Have a nice Day†”
Wise resply: IT IS GOING BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN. Also genez is misleadling this forum with Nazi Gerhard Kittle’s NIV http://bible.cc/philippians/1-9.htm . Also, that’s about as mature a relationship one could have with a thiemite; you can’t because they are so immature.
It is not about loving or hating Thieme, it’s about the truth of Jesus.
Aisthesis in Philippians 1:9 is not “insight”. And? What genez described as Thieme’s innocent sin, is a statement which is so misleading and pathetically sick, it is evil.
Aisthesis is not “insight”, you have to do your homework on every word a thiemite says, because they are deceptive with their words. But? If you do you homework? With 1 John 2:27? You will expose them as Therese just did.
http://www.myetymology.com/greek/aisthesis.html
((Also I caution against doktor Gerhard Kittle’s TDNT and any Bible version such as NIV which relies on Kittle’s TDNT.(NIV Phil. 1:9 has aisthesis as “insight”) Kittle was 1 of “Hitler’s theologians” and was arrested and imprisoned by Allies after WWII.
To be cont…
Wise as Serpents
To the Forum:
Cont…
What Therese and others are experiencing on this forum is how a highly inculcated and indoctrinated thiemite cult follower of Thieme. Thiemites will never blame their cult leader Thieme. It is “always someone else’s fault, not Thieme’s…” The thiemite cult follower’s realtionship is based on your attitude towards “Thieme doctrine”, not the clear reading 1 John 2:27 and the knowledge you learn from your anointing.
Dr. Wall’s doctoral dissertation:
http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6049008/i/Thieme.pdf
“…
The biblical support for this teaching is found in Thieme’s exegesis of the
last half of Philippians 1:9: en epignosei kai pase aisthesei. Thieme takes the en
as instrumental and concludes that full knowledge (epignosis) and perception
(aisthesis) are the means by which love is developed.
An interesting application of this concept of the development of love is the
way Thieme exhorts his people relative to the development and maintenance of
friendships. He teaches that a person who truly loves Jesus Christ is one who can
truly love people. Then he makes the application that one should pick his friends
on the basis of their attitude toward God. Then he deduces that “the attitude of a
person toward doctrine inevitably is the attitude of the person toward God.” His
final conclusion is that “great friendships are made on the basis of doctrine.” In
the context of Thieme’s definition of Bible doctrine, one under his pastoral authority must be governed in the development and maintenance of friendships by
the commitment of one’s friends to the teachings of Bob Thieme.”…
Wise reply: So you see clearly another cult characteristic of the cult of Thieme, which the thiemite cult follower is exposed to: to marginalize or deny altogether 1 John 2:27 and reading the bible for yourself and relying on the Holy Spirit(perfect authority) for teaching. And instead? Your relationship to a thiemite is based on whether or not you submit to Thieme’s false cult authority.
To be cont…
Wise as Serpents
To the Forum:
Cont…
The same is true for almost any cult.
To submit to Thieme’s corrupt authority would be to be “coerced in Thieme”. To be open to the Holy Spirit is to be “persuaded in Christ”.
There is a difference but thiemites do not have “aisthesis” discernment of the difference between the corrupt authority of Thieme and the perfect authority of the Holy Spirit.
Thieme has a very complex delivery and his intentional “differences” give the appearance of “correction” through academics, but? this is sheepskin deception for a Neocon imperial political cult agenda which is not biblically correct nor sound and “inculcates” dysfunction into the Christian if they are open to Thieme’s false authority as the only way to spiritual maturity.
But? When Thieme get’s into trouble? With his extremist intentional differences? What is the 1st thing thiemites try to claim? “Thieme is NO DIFFERENT than any other orthodox church. But? They are lying.
Sodini was caught up in Thieme doctrine for 13 years and obviously destabilized mentally by it and even used RB Thieme jrs “Integrity of God” to focus for the mass murder, the day before.
Here are some more quotes from RB Thieme jr’s “Christian Integrity”, which Sodini was more than likely familiar with, along with apparent relation in Sodini’s mind, written on Sodini’s blog.:
Sodini blog diary: August 3, 2009:(day before the sick serial murder)” I took off today, Monday, and tomorrow to practice my routine and make sure it is well polished. I need to work out every detail, there is only one shot. Also I need to be completely immersed into something before I can be successful. I haven’t had a drink since Friday at about 2:30. Total effort needed. Tomorrow is the big day. Unfortunately I talked to my neighbor today, who is very positive and upbeat. I need to remain focused and absorbed COMPLETELY. Last time I tried this, in January, I chickened out. Lets see how this new approach works. Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=8258001&page=4
RB Thieme jr quotes from his booklet “Christian Integrity”, which Sodini was more than likely familiar with:
RB Thieme jr quote from his booklet “Christian Integrity”: ” the filling of the Spirit contributes to concentration and mental focus, not to dissipation…”
RB Thieme jr quote from his booklet “Christian Integrity”:”We must focus on doctrine, not on the evils we intend to leave behind. In this manner we avoid the arrogance of self-righteous crusading, which itself is a subtle satanic trap. The proper spiritual priority places doctrine before the influence of any personal relationship,…”
RB Thieme jr quote from his booklet “Christian Integrity”:”At gate two, Divine promises and basic impersonal love set aside distractions that would disturb concentration. Concentration is the opposite of distraction; it is focusing your attention on a single object to the exclusion of all others. If you cannot sustain mental focus, you are unstable. You lack the attention span required to pursue any thought to its conclusion. You vacillate from one subject to another. The relaxed mental attitude of gate two enables you to operate from your own mental integrity rather than swerve indiscriminately from topic to topic…”
RB Thieme jr quote from his booklet “Christian Integrity”:”Success in any endeavor in life requires the concentration to pay attention to detail while staying focused on the objective. And this demands self- discipline which is the consistent decision to do what must to be done, with the determination to avoid any distractions that hinder the accomplishment of an objective! In any sport, or medicine or music, military, Etc. Practice! Practice! Practice! ”
RB Thieme jr quotes from his booklet “Christian Integrity”:”Even in the most dreadful circumstances, the believer must remain in control of his life, retain his personal sense of destiny…
Wise: Note Sodini spoke of how his “Practice papers” could be freely published. Sodini: Also, any of the “Practice Papers” left on my coffee table I used or the notes in my gym bag can be published freely.
Wise: Sodini spoke of” paying attention to detail” and his hope for success with his new approach to mass murder reading RB Thieme jr’s booklet “Integrity of God”.
More analysis could be made if the Alleghany police department, would release more documents. This currently requires a supoena.
(Also be careful to see which manuscript has which writing of a greek word. http://original.biblebrowser.com/philippians/1-9.htm )
Wiseasserpents
The concept of perfect salvation through Christ is NOT new or unique to this faith. The writer of this article would like a “cult” slant, but it’s just not there.
In every church, every fitness center, every grocery store, every bank, and every where else, there are lonely, troubled individuals. There’s nothing unique about this man. There is nothing oOoH, ScArY about the church he left. Provocateurs, like this writer, make a business out of titillating and frightening you. You let them do it and you enjoy every perverse minute.
Grace salvation is not an excuse to commit vile acts. The concept of grace is NOT new or unusual. It has always been the individuals responsibility to make the right choices, however imperfect we are. You want to hear that this man will burn but that’s not up to you. He has allowed sin to forfeit his physical life. He committed the sin unto death. He will probably loose some mysterious rewards in the after life.
However, there is only one act that sends a person to hell for all eternity- ONE ACT! Rejection of the saving grace of God. Judge a man in this world, but it’s not our right to judge a man’s soul. Attempting to do so is a sin of arrogance.
If you do not already understand the saving grace of God, that’s the only sin you need to wrestle with in order to find salvation from eternal damnation. Afterwards, your efforts to walk the path of Christ and live a good life are as good as any form of worshiping him. Before salvation, your good works are wasted and meaningless. Your “good behavior” is an empty gesture without Christ. THAT is “religion”- an empty gesture- the Satanic counterfeit of God’s grace.
“Right man, right woman” is NOT an absolute. It’s also not this church’s invention. It’s nice when you find that perfect someone, but, as with many things in this world, it doesn’t usually work quite that way. Most people live wonderful lives without that absolutely perfect counterpart. That’s the norm, not the exception. It’s important to know that this has NOTHING to do with abstinence OR salvation. You will have relationships- perfect or imperfect.
I ventured onto this blog after a google search on another topic and caught the reference to Thieme.
My family attended Berachah Church under Thieme back in the 60s/early 70s and I had attended a handful of services over the years, but received a copy of the two forementioned studies about a decade ago and more rigorously studied Thieme’s works over that time.
Before one attempts to become critical on Thieme, please be aware he was a dedicated student of Scripture, the original languages, and had as much formal training in exegesis and training as one could professionally attain. Also, the critic would do well to interpret Thieme from the timeframe which in he wrote and his audience. He was trained in Greek and Hebrew languages and retires as a senior field grade officer at one point in charge of all cadet training at the Air Force Academy (Air-Air Corps to Air Force timeframe.) If I recall correctly, he also picked up LtCol by age 27 in WWII, so it isn’t as if he was illiterate or lacking in wherewithal as some critics might like to imagine.
In regards to his theology and writing/training techniques, Thieme used a system of coined language/terms derived from the word studies within Scripture. Almost every doctrine he taught, he would preface with a series of etymologies to explain the vocabulary involved, emphasizing the etymology of the words used in Scripture.
He would also cross reference many different verses through out Scripture with gave insight to the use of the vocabulary in those studies.
He would coin some phrases to communicate to his audience, most of which in Cold War Houston, were conservative, upper middle class, white and blue collar, college educated believers in Bible studies.
The church was non-denominational. This speaks far more to discerning the associations with legitimate authority, than with rebellion to God. Thieme indubitably placed priority in living through fellowship with God by understanding and thinking the mind of Christ.
If his critics seek to attack some of his coined language, they also need to be prepared to criticize well tested Church doctrines such as those of Catholicism of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union, the doctrine of Kenosis, and doctrine of Theophanies. He also followed and taught from Scripture on doctrines accepted by the Reformed Church regarding soteriology, such as the doctrine of Grace, Love, Justification, Redemption, Regeneration, Repentence, Reconciliation, etc.
His theologic training from Dallas Theological Seminary also is reflected in his teaching many dispensational perspectives of eschatology, being pretrib and premil in his eschatology.
For those who criticize him and label him as a cult, they truly have not given him adequate audience to discern his message. Take for example the doctrine of Repentance and Confession which he succinctly referenced as ‘Rebound’. One could claim this is a cult like interpretation, but if one rigorously studies Scripture and were to teach somebody who didn’t know anything about Forgiveness as described in the Bible, but who came from a social background which was occupied with sports in their pasttime, the “Rebound” technique is an outstanding allegory describing those doctrines.
Rebound is an analogy to playing basketball (or any number of field sports). A player is in good standing with legitimate authority judging the game, running down the court, steps out of bounds, but proceeds to run down court and shoots the ball through the goal, (nothing but net). Then, the player observes his work didn’t score any points. It might have been a hook shot from behind the mid court line, but still no score. Why? Because the player had stepped out of bounds and failed to yield to legitimate authority. The proper protocol or procedures to be used in the game were for the player to turn the ball over to the umpire/referee, then the ref would recognize the legitimate player to whom the ball was returned, and play was allowed to legitimately continue.
Rebound is a term used by Thieme in parallel, teaching how every believer, in their effort to perform good works through faith in Christ, might step out of bounds, so to speak, by sin or missing he mark. Before any good work that believer might perform is to be future judged as a good work by Divine standards, the believer must first reface God, (turn back to Him, i.e. repent), then confess all known and unknown sins to Him, and by 1stJohn 1:9, He is sure and just to forgive those sins and return the believer back into fellowship with God.
The doctrine or type of faith is built upon understanding Scripture, then developing a language for recall in our memories, and then available as a tool in daily problem solving and practical living of our daily lives. Faith is built precept upon precept, faith upon faith, doctrine upon doctrine.
It might be noted that even Thieme was careful not to apeal to any one denomination for doctrinal guidance, but placed priority upon remaining in fellowship with God through faith in Christ, and submitting to the authority of the Word of God by literal interpretation of Scripture.
Not only did he place his priorities to those basics, he also recognized that past denominations suffered similar problems from those who worshiped the church and religion more than God, and he therefore had a tendency to not encourage others to repeat the doctrines he taught outside the church in foreign context.
WRT the mass murderer forementioned in this thread, had he been a rigorous student of Thieme, he would also had studied Thieme’s studies in doctrines of Cosmic One and Cosmic Two, Doctrines of Arrogance and how a believer who is out of fellowship with God, is no better than the antichrist and can perform many heinous actions which are distinctly antichristian. As such, the degenerate believer isn’t getting away with anything, but is instead leaving many a blessing either on the table or to be thrown into the lake of Fire at the bema Seat judgment and Great White Throne Judgments.
Nothing in Thieme’s writings would give encouragement of murder, let alone mass murder, nor would it imply such actions were forgiven by God, BUT no matter how heinous a sin, it IS possible to have forgiveness through faith in Christ. This is fairly standard Christian doctrine in Catholic and Protestant theologies.
The doctrine of right man, right woman, is fairly common throughout Catholic and Protestant circles. If one favors the opposite position of polygamy, I would tend to think that position to be far more cult-like.
Most people unaware of Thieme’s coined terms, were probably more offended by his dogmatism. On the other hand, if a believer studies and remains in fellowship with God through faith in Christ, and is continually attacked by any number of mechanisms, taking a resolute stand through faith in Christ is not an extrabiblical position, but rather expresses resistance to being a lukewarm believer. Such criticisms of his positions are generally leveled by those seeking to judge the pastor, rather than keep Christ as the target of their faith.
FWIW, I wish more pastors were as devout as Thieme, and as well studied. Attending his assemblies, which were held daily, 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year, including, yes, XMAS and New Years’Day and even Easter, were closer to attending a collegiant or seminary level course in Bible Study.
Until I actually studied his doctrines which he presented and in light of other Catholic and Reformed theologies, I thought the accusation of Thieme being a cult leader might have had some merit, but the more I have studied the backgrounds of basic Bible doctrines and the history of the Church, I can assuredly state his positions were not a cult. If one claims his were a cult, then far more cult-like would be Calvinism, Catholicism, and any number of conventional Bible based theologies. Dogmatic, perhaps; cult-like, no.
After reading all the threads, only #31 seemed to be rational and fair, not attcking someone or something. Why would you even attempt to blame someone for some action that someone else did. This Theime guy was dead before this guy chose to kill those people. He did not plan an attack, pull a trigger, or have any involvement. Lets put the blame where it belongs, ON THE GUY WHO DID IT! This political correctness bull has got to stop.
Post 31 is an example of how Thieme’s cult followers never find anything wrong with their cult leader Thieme.
I think it is obvious that Sodini was RB Thieme jrs booklet in PREPARATION for MASS MURDER.
These thiemite cult followers NEVER see anything wrong with Thieme. But? They are wrong.
RB Thieme jr did not become a lt col until WWII was over. Thieme did attend Dallas Theological Seminary but Thieme deviated from Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. Dr. Chafer never taught the false doctrine of “right pastor”. Thieme was valedictorian of his masters class at DTS, but Thieme forgot to mention there were only seven students in his class and if one included the doctorate program Thieme was not valedictorian that honor went to Dr. Ryrie.
Thieme always overinflated the truth about his own accomplishmenst to intimidate people into sitting down shutting up and listening while taking scrupilous notes. This is not christian. “Submit ye one to another” that would include Thieme as submitting to one another. BUT? Thieme falsely claimed absolute spiritual authority over “his” congregation. This also is not christian, but it is a cult feature.
Thieme created out of his own extremist neoconservative insane imagination the false “doctrine of right pastor”. It is that doctrine that defines Thieme as a cult leader.
See Rick Ross website rb thieme jr
Here’s just one example:
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,page=152
Also see Dr. Wall’s dissertation which critiqued RB Thieme jrs false teachings.
BOB THIEME’S TEACHINGS ON CHRISTIAN LIVING by Joe Layton Wall
http://www.texaswalls.org/immys/pdfs/ thieme_by_joe_wall.pdf
To be fair Thieme was not wrong in every case, but Thieme was wrong enough for Dr. Wall (who received his doctorate from Dallas Theological seminary as opposed to Thieme only receiving a masters degree)(also later Thieme called DTS and severed all ties to DTS) to counsel Thieme’s ex-cult members who had become schizophrenic by Thieme’s false teaching of rebound, which leaves out a repentent minset. Dr. Wall also stated that Thieme was like the cult the children of God.
But the question is “Did what Thieme inculcated have the power for the individual Sodini to lose control over his personality yet have control enough to complete a political suicide misssion to mass murder liberal feminists as Sodini yelled as he mowed them down – the answer is YES.
Stay away from Thieme’s teachings learn directly from Dr. Chafer. Thieme does not teach Dr. Darby/Scofield/Chafer’s dispensational theology.
Thieme’s teachings are full of pitfalls stumbling blocks and land mines. Thieme encompasses General Wedemeyers pro-nazi anti-communist stance and the expense of the true Word of God. Thieme copies Nazi Gerhard Kittle’s hate filled attack on the literal Jewish Blood of Christ.
Thieme did create cult “loaded language” which caused christian division and an “us versus other christian mentality”(especially satanic liberal christians). If Thieme had a superior message which he did not but if he had why would he not reach out to liberal christians and help them? Instead created a political cult a pre Fox News attack on all liberal chrisitans and then Thieme tried to hide under an evil cloak claiming “correct chrisitanity” “from the original languages”. No, it was from the original language of satan.
Also much of Thieme’s vocabulary seems to be a cherrypicking attempt at a 180 attack on the vocabulary of the communist manifesto as opposed to any serious study of the original languages.(Which as rick ross site exposes Thieme overembellished his proficiency with koine greek) Ex: “inculcate” “human will” “human nature” etc..
The rick ross site is the most thorough examination and revelation of Thieme’s hypocrasy, falsehoods, and YES CULT!
Let Sodini be as a warning. Heed the warning or pay a terribly evil price.
Do not let thiemites bully you. I have defeated every thiemites who dared to defend Thieme’s falsehoods. If they bother you then just email me.
The cult connection is there DEFINITELY! IT WILL DESTROY YOUR PERSONALITY AND MOLD YOU INTO A ROBOT. It will break you down. It encompasses Dr. Lifton’s 8 chracteristics of mind control.
To post 32: It is not about attacking Thieme. Thieme was sick and needed help. It is about warning the masses of people about Thieme.
Truthtesty@hotmail.com
“In regards to his theology and writing/training techniques, Thieme used a system of coined language/terms derived from the word studies within Scripture. Almost every doctrine he taught, he would preface with a series of etymologies to explain the vocabulary involved, emphasizing the etymology of the words used in Scripture.”
How is it possible for mere man to improve on something that was inspired by the Holy Spirit? If someone has some revelation of the scriptures wouldn’t it be far better to open those very scriptures to the hearers, rather than re-write them? Re-writing, re-wording the word that God spoke will always miss the mark, and not have the breath of the Spirit which gives those words power and life – and it robs the Author of the glory that is due Him and gives it to flesh. It’s also a steep slippery slope into false doctrine and deception. It can be an easy mistake to make in anyone’s zeal to share understanding, but the Lord is reminding me this morning to be careful of this pitfall. Especially as we have seen so many examples of the ‘fruit’ of it… In this part of comment #31 I quoted above, it appears as though this minister is essentially trying to replace the Holy Spirit, and even if that wasn’t his intention or desire, that’s what it boils down to unfortunately, with disastrous results.
Thieme quote: “So, don’t kid yourself, when the day comes that any new believer can open the Bible and become an expert that’s the day when we won’t need pastors and teachers and I’ll go to Hawaii or I’ll go back into the service or something. … ”
Was Sodini an expert? Hah! Sodini heard many of Thieme’s questionable etymologies. Sodini attended a Thiemite clone church for years AND WE SEE THE RESULTS.
Thiemite cult followers can try to deny the harm and damage caused by Thieme’s false cult neocon rhetoric, but that will never change the TRUTH.
The “expert” is the Holy Spirit, NOT Thieme. Nor is anyone Thieme “inculcated” with propagandistic rhetoric an expert.
And? The shows another of Thieme’s fallacies of – one does not need to become and expert.
We only NEED the Holy Spirit.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Interesting comments. I did not know of Sodini’s connection to “the Colonel” until I stumbled on this blog.
In my experience, followers of Bob Thieme are distinguished by their obvious sense of superiority to other believers. They are defensive. They denounce others for “arrogance” but do not examine themselves for evidence of arrogance. They accuse others of legalism but are blind to their own legalism. They mock anyone who would pick up the Bible and read it–what use is it to read the Bible without having the Colonel tell you what to think about it? Unfortunately, I could go on and on. I hope that Bobby Thieme is not as dogmatic and authoritarian as his father.
That’s funny because I’ve met several people who have followed the teachings of R. B. Thieme (I do not) & have found them to be a very humble & gracious bunch
Well Janice,
You would have us believe you do not follow Thieme. It has been my experience that someone who defends Thieme is usually a Thieme cult follower, pretending to “normal” in the world, when in nearly every case Thieme attacked what was “normal”. Thiemites try so hard to “act as if everything is ok” but? it isn’t “ok”. Thieme is not ok. Thieme and his teachings are highly desctructive and deadly as we see the “Sodini” fruits of Thieme’s teachings . You people have been lying for years trying to appear to be normal trying to take over every position of authority that you can for your neocon political cult and you dont care who dies as long as you push Thieme’s neocon agenda. Thiemites falsely and perversly submit to the corrupt will of Thieme, instead of the will of God. Thiemites conflate the will of Thieme with the will of God.
Janice maybe you don’t really know Thiemites. I think it is quite possible for someone to falsely assume thiemites are a “humble and gracious bunch”, if you had just met them but didn’t really get to know them.
Take Sodini for example he was a typical appearing clean cut humble gracious nice guy. But? hidden and boiling under pressure under the surface of what “appeared” normal, was a sickened deep self hating rage that could not be brought under control and eventually it exploded when it could implode no more. THAT is the result of RB Thieme jr s sick indoctrination.
Thieme was a sick cult leader and Thieme defended peddled and pushed a corporate neocon extremist agenda. Two examples in particular were big oil and the MIC. And? they didn’t and don’t care who died. Those innocents who did die were just “collateral damage” of the war Thieme waged on “normal” human beings.
Why don’t thiemites just come out of the closet? because they are gutless.
Truthtesty
This site has information and resources which will help people become informed about these teachings and the group environment.
http://www.4shared.com/dir/1780756/6441dbb/sharing.html
comment removed upon request – BD
When looking for some other material, I must admit to be fascinated, particularly about the anger I see here.
I’ve listened to R. B. Thieme for decades, both on tape, in person, and later on, on MP3′s following his passing. I have never been embarrassed to say that I attended Berachah and listened to Bob, nor have I met anyone who was like that.
I’ve known a number of people who have attended Berachah, and they are like any other group of people. Some are nice, some are okay, some (not many) are a little nutty; they are just normal people.
This nutjob who says millions of women have rejected him over several decades, and then goes out and kills, was obviously emotionally or mentally defective. Did he watch tv? What shows did he watch? Did he listen to the radio or read anything else? Did he eat twinkies? Why aren’t these things blamed?
What is quite telling is, dozens of women (probably not millions) read him correctly when meeting and/or dating him, and decided not to pursue that relationship. That by itself ought to speak volumes as to who this person was.
With regards to Berachah being a cult, nothing could be further from the truth. I know cults and cult leaders, and Bob was authoritative and dogmatic but he was not a cult leader. No one was cut off from their friends or loved ones; nothing weird happened if you decided to stop going to Berachah (or start up again). Anyone could attend and be invisible, which is an environment which Bob cultivated.
What is clear is, Bob’s personality was not at all similar to that of any known pastor, and this shocked a number of people. I disliked Bob the first few months that I listened to his tapes and it took me awhile to warm up to him as a person.
If you set aside 2 or 3 controversial doctrines and Bob’s personality, and read his material, it is clear that he did great things in the 20th century (primarily clearly presenting the mechanics of the spiritual life and developing an up-to-date Christian vocabulary).
Obviously, he is not the right pastor for every person. I would submit that even the angry Truth Testy could be a great Christian and grow spiritually under a different pastor.
But hanging this actions of this lone nutjob on Bob is unfair; and referring to his church as a cult is inaccurate.
I have already said Thieme’s imaginary false “doctrine right pastor” does not exist in the original languages AND? I challenge anyone to prove otherwise on this forum or any other forum or even by email to me. Thieme lied and was a hypocrite
Thieme made INTENTIONAL false divisions in the original languages resulting also in false divisions of the body of Christ and that includes false divisions in the “new man”.
Ephesians 4:22 You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 23 to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image – in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth
Thieme teaches a disassociation from the reality of yourself by a complete rejection of the natural human self (with undue extremist militaristic authoritarianism) without taking into account the new man, as if the Holy Spirit cannot work through the human nature of Christians. As if putting on the new man was all about submitting to Thieme’s false doctrine of “right pastor”. As if the christian was dysfunctional by themselfs without thier cult leader on earth. As if the Holy Spirit and faith was enough to save you, but working out a relationship with yourself, anyone else, or the Holy Spirit was something that could not happen by your own faith, According to Thieme it had to include false submission to him or another clone pastor like him. It is no wonder so many normal people become dysfunctional in Thieme’s cult. Thieme tried replacing the Holy Spirit and even tried to replace the Holy Spirit’s words with Thieme’s own words. Thieme taught a 100 percent anti-human agenda for Thieme’s extremist neoconservative political agenda. Wall Street sure loves those Berachah boys. Slaves for profit and making Wall Street rich sending jobs over seas, while destroying ther middle class in the USA.
And if you follow Thieme’s teachings you will dissassociate from reality and corrupt to yourself. Indeed dysfunctionalizing oneself. Some people are already so corrupt and don’t mind continually corrupting themselfs(and others). They defend Thieme as if there is nothing wrong with being perverted and perverting the truth.
Yes. Sodini was the fruit of Thieme. Sodini reading Thieme’s booklet the night (IN PREPARATION) before the murder is a slam dunk. Sodini was the fruit of Thieme’s dysfunctional false doctrines. Thieme’s words did nothing to stop Sodini’s mass murder and yelling out Thieme’s own HATRED OF FEMINISTS! As Sodini mowed the women down.
Me angry? lol no. I amused at how thiemites will convolute to protect thier master false teacher though. That is hilarious. It would all be hilarious if so many peoples’ lives had not been destroyed by Thieme’s false teachings. Yes it is a destructuve cult – that is if you live in the real world and not the playground of Thieme’s imaginations.
Instead of trying to defend a nutjob like Thieme, why don’t you take the time to learn the names of the women who died by the fruit of Thieme?
Again I challenge anyone to try to prove Thieme’s cult false doctrine of right pastor is in the Bible, it’s not.
Truthtesty
Truthtesty@hotmail.com
Truthtesty-
I believe you are are conflating Sodini’s hatred of women with Thieme’s “hatred of feminists” (though this is more accurately hatred of certain ideologies of the feminist movement, not hatred of actual individuals).
Sodini was a sociopath. He was clueless. He didn’t understand women. He was neurotically self-absorbed. He thought if he dressed nice and kept his apartment clean that women would fall all over him. But they avoided him like the plague because he was creepy and needy and weird. That’s all. Sodini obsessed about women day and night. He became who he was because of mother issues and a lifetime of terrible decisions which resulted in severe delusions regarding himself and what relationships with women are really about. He didn’t have the first clue as to why a woman loves a man. This has nothing to do with Thieme.
The Bible teaches that the mind of Christ being built up in ourselves results in love, tolerance and being relaxed about people and the cirumstances of life. Thieme taught these very things. Sodini was the polar opposite of this kind of person. Just because someone studies under Thieme, or a church that adheres to Thieme’s doctrines does not mean that they will be automatically zapped into some kind of state of peace and maturity. Each individual must make their own decisions and go through their own struggles on a daily basis to achieve this. Everyone has to roll their own rock uphill, though the Spirit works within us if we allow Him to.
Sodini read “Integrity of God” to amp himself up for what he desired to do, but the only doctrine that he applies was eternal security. Eternal security is not unique to Thieme. It is a Biblical doctrine, and adhered to by tens of thousands of churches across the world. He could have picked up a Charles Swindoll book, a Lewis Chafer book, or the Bible itself to absorb the exact same doctrine.
Sean,
Thieme was also a sociopath. Thieme was also a narcissist. Thieme was sick and no one really should be surprised when this loose cannon infected others.
Again another thiemite tries to defend Thieme’s teaching and AGAIN they cannot prove the cult false doctrine of right pastor exists in the Bible because it doesn’t. This cult false doctrine automates an irresponsible subservience to one earthly pastor’s CORRUPT AUTHORITY. CULT.
That false doctrine is a spiritual cancer which grows in and infects all areas of the christian’s spiritual and human life.
Christians are to submit “one unto another” and that includes ALL CHRISTIANS, ALL ELDERS,ETC… NOT FALSE ONE WAY EXTREMIST MILITARY SUBMISSION TO ONE CORRUPT PASTOR. CULT.
Also, you know not of what you speak and neither did Thieme. Thieme did not teach Lewis Sperry Chafer “Dispensatonal Theology”. Thieme cherry picked some of Chafer, some in context. Thieme created a new and false dispensational theology for American Wall Street Imperialism, based on Roman Imperialism, not based in truth.
For example, for Thieme to have a spiritual bat of extreme authority to beat you over the head with and to get cult followers to NOT THINK OR JUDGE THIEME FOR THEMSELFS, he took from a different dispensation:
Truthtesty: Thieme’s “TRIPLE COMPOUND DISCIPLINE” is FALSE because Thieme is referring to Matthew 7:2 “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.
This is one of the false fear tactics of the Thieme temple. Cults do not like to be exposed it is no wonder Thieme says “Every believer should develop a conscious habit of keeping his mouth shut…” Christian Suffering by R. B. Thieme jr.
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.
One 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God.” (not Thieme) Two 1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
The Thieme cult definitely tried to squeeze Matthew 7:2 into the “Age of Grace” or “Church Age”, but that’s a “Kingdom” Law.
This is another proof for “test all things” and performing your own personal study.
Matthew 7:2 “For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.
Thieme quote: We must approach the Word of God with utmost care. Never are we to indiscriminately lift a phrase here and a verse there and apply them to suit our fancy. We must always analyze the Scripture in the light of certain principles of interpretation “The Integrity of God” by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE CHURCH AGE BELIEVER OF THIS CHURCH AGE DISPENSATION.
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.
THIEME KNEW THAT.
Thieme quote: Dispensational Theology holds the key to understanding the Scriptures in their proper perspective. Dispensationalism clarifies the difference between Israel and the Church and defines the Christian’s modus operandi and his relationships. Anti-Semitism by R.B. Thieme, Jr.
THIEME KNEW THAT!
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.
THEREFORE IT IS A DELIBERATE, HYPOCRITICAL, AND INTENTIONAL FALSIFICATION OF THE SCRIPTURE FOR THIEME’S CULT.
Thieme started using his false teaching on “Triple Compound Discipline” at least as of the early 1970′s. As far as I know Thieme never recanted his false teaching on “Triple Compound Discipline”.
This is not an improvement on Dr. Chafer’s categorical teachings of dispensational Systematic Theology. This is a retardation from Dr. Chafer. Thieme is intentionally and unecessarily intimidating unwitting christians, through the use of intentional misinterpretations. Thieme is using and inducing unnecessary fear into unwitting chrisitans, through the use of intentional misinterpretations. Thereby misrepresenting the Word of God and handling the Word of God deceitfully.
Once the christian’s ability to think and judge anything for themself is put under spiritual arrest and submit only to Thieme (or another of his clones) for false spirituall growth. It’s over. Toast. That dysfunction spreads as a cancer of the mind into every area of what was previously a functional human being.
Sean quote: “I believe you are are conflating Sodini’s hatred of women with Thieme’s “hatred of feminists” (though this is more accurately hatred of certain ideologies of the feminist movement, not hatred of actual individuals).”
Truthtesty: This is absurd. Sodini shouted “I HATE FEMINISTS!” as he mowed the ladies down, not “I HATE WOMEN”.
I didn’t conflate anything. This is your false shallow attempt, Sean, to defend the falsehood of Thieme’s cult.
Just another thiemite false defense, one of thousands who would try to serve a falsehood to defend Thieme, and again I knock it out of the park.
Truthtesty
It seems Jesus described belief as “work”. John 6:27-27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Paul describes faith as “work”: 1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
Also James: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
…
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I agree that faith is a human work in Jesus as saviour. You can’t get away from it and you couldn’t be saved without your own personal work of faith in Jesus. Right? Regardless of what Jesus did, you could not be saved apart from your own personal “work of faith”.
Truthtesty Truthtesty@hotmail.com
I was saved in a Thieme based church and had been involved with Thieme organizations for the first 15 or so years of my spiritual life. God used Thieme ministries to teach me respect for authority. Being an engineer, his mechanical approach was easy to comprehend.
With this event, God said to me enough of the nonsense (it’s time to rebound and move forward – away from Thieme). Like most DTS founded organizations, Thieme taught lawless spirituality. One could go on and on about all the errors. They all come down to not obeying and teaching Christ’s commandments. Obeying Christ’s Commandments are the foundation of the Spiritual life.
It is important to note that confession of sin without turning from sin is useless. Heck, Thieme didn’t understand what sin is (which is disobeying Christ’s Commandments). Rebound alone spirituality is a great error. This is the result of teaching a half Gospel. Believing in Christ’s death without the resurrection does not lead to salvation. The Gospel must include that by faith we have died to sin and are alive to God.
My parents are Thieme tapers (back when his sermons were on tapes), and I grew up being spoon-fed “the Colonel’s” brand of dispensationalist free-grace fundamentalism. It lead to quite the awkward and isolated childhood. Later on I acquired just a few critical thinking skills, realized the whole artifice was bullocks and have long left that world (it is a “world” in the truest sense). My parents are really worshiping a far-right militarist sociopolitical ideology allegedly legitimated by selective Greek and Hebrew translations and good old fashioned sectarian hubris.
For the record (insomuch as an anonymous Internet poster has a record), I’m a Unitarian-Universalist with Buddhist leanings now, which is a far turnpike theologically from Thieme’s teachings, to put it mildly. From my understanding, most former Thiemites remain Christian conservatives but simply reject some of Thieme’s teachings that they consider monumentally important but which are obscure to outsiders. But yes, some (maybe only a few) former tapers do subscribe to more liberal flavors of Christianity, or leave Christianity entirely, are content in another faith (or no faith at all), and see no reason to return. Just wanted to offer hope to anyone wondering if there’s life after Berachah.
To Guy Lee IV:
Your statement: “…Believing in Christ’s death without the resurrection does not lead to salvation. The Gospel must include that by faith we have died to sin and are alive to God.” is intresting.
I have proven Thieme’s gospel false by 1st Corinthians 15:17. I Corinthians 15:17 says that the death of Jesus on the Cross is not sufficient without the ressurection. Therefore clearly something more (the ressurection) defeats sin also.
The Blood of Jesus defeats sin and if as the apostle hypothetically states in I Corinthians 15:17 that if Jesus had not risen and only died then everyone is still in thier sins, then? undoubtedly the “Blood of Jesus” has an after the Death on the Cross meaning. That is simple. Thus proving conclusively that Thieme’s concept of “spiritual death only = the Blood of Christ” is blatantly false.
Although the scripture is clear I still wrote to a DTS professor on this issue of 1st Corinthians 15:17. “Hello Dr. ******,
I have studied the issue of the Blood of Jesus for many years now. I have even studied what Dr. Chafer, Dr. Walvoord, Dr. Wall, Dr. Morris, Dr. Stibbs and others, have written on the subject. My view is that no view of the Blood of Christ(which defeats sin) can be considered complete without 1 Corinthians 15:17 “yet in your sins” without the resurrection. To me that is conclusive proof that the definition of Blood of Christ must include the Resurrection. And that the death of Jesus alone was insufficient to defeat sin without the life of the Resurrection.
What is the current view of DTS on the Blood of Jesus?
The response: “The gospel, according to the apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15, is that Jesus is alive, that he was resurrected and in that act he defeated sin and death. Our hope is based in his resurrection. Because he lives, we have the promise of everlasting life.
I think I agree with you”
For more on my debate proving Thieme incorrect see: http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,13233,page=191
Also I must disagree with Thieme’s concept of authority. Thieme’s cult false myth of “right pastor” is a destructive myth and is not in the Bible. It is not a commandment nor is it a part of the teachings of Jesus.
Truthtesty