See new update at the bottom of the post – BD
It’s late, but I would like to point out this first of two posts by a writer/reporter who attended over 13 hours of TheCry Vancouver.
Rick Hiebert is known for his vast knowledge of the neo-charismatic movement in Canada and as the reporter who interviewed Todd Bentley, long before Bentley became the world wide phenom who crashed and burned in Lakeland Florida.
This is not a hit piece, this is comprehensive reporting.
It’s after 4 am I have to get some sleep.
 Â
Hiebert has provided so much meat, I’ll post more about his piece when I am awake.
He provides some information that will surprise even the most casually interested reader.
Go read.Â
You are welcome to comment here at BDBO, TheCry leadership tends to operate in the shadows.
Public discussion is warrented.
Rick Hiebert: The Cry…of the misled?
Update: Opps. There is a malware warning for Rick Hiebert’s site from Google. Â
Thanks to readers for letting me know, several of you have been kind enough to email; an indication there is keen interest in this subject.Â
I’ve passed the information to Mr. Hiebert, along with the Google instructions for him on how to check his blog and have offered to help out by posting - even temporarily - here at BDBO.Â
Malware happens, and I can appreciate the frustration first hand for the site owner, and for readers.
Hold tight until we hear from Rick Hiebert. His work is worth the wait.
Update: The Cry…of the misled has been posted here at BDBO while tech stuff gets straightened out.
Thanks for you patience.:^)
Update: October 4/09 – Google has removed the malware warning for Rick’s site.
Thanks for linking that, which was an interesting read. About 1/4 of the way down is this: There is a practical question involved too. Do we want non-Christians to read quotes like this, think they are examples of what all Christians believe, and seek to ban us from the public square, enacting a political pogrom in the name of saving tolerance and fair play?
The specific way that this is framed suggests an unhealthy paranoia, which I hope is not typical of Rick’s peers. Not, of course, that I’m in any place to speak for non-Christians, but I think it is likelier that such views will be laughed out of public square. But this is surely a sign that someone has been reading too much dystopic fiction. A pogrom? Really? There is, as far as I can see, no one suggesting it, the public wouldn’t allow it, and the courts would strike it down within milliseconds of its passage.
Dominionist theology, whether anyone calls it by that name or not, makes as much sense as if Noah had been running around trying to salvage the arts, media, politics and culture of his day, instead of building an ark. The world in its present form is passing away and appointed unto wrath, which the flood narrative was a living parable of. “As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.”
Our goal as believers should be Christ. “To live is Christ…” We should have no other goal. Believers need to heed the lesson of Mary and Martha – Martha was running around, busy and worried about many things – but Mary chose the better part, the “one thing needed”, to sit at the feet of Jesus, crucifying her fleshly desires and need to feel worthy and self-important by running around like Martha, and learning of Him, allowing Him to transform her into His likeness. Poor Martha was in effect taking the place of God trying to do what only God can do (how is it even possible for corrupt flesh to prepare a meal worthy of the Son of the Living God? – no wonder she was so anxious and burdened!), whereas Mary was waiting on the Lord to do what He wanted to do through her. She was planting her life in the ground to die like a kernel of wheat, a seeming waste when there was so much that needed to be done – she was allowing the Lord to be King of her life, not the pressing needs around her. (He is King of all those pressing needs too!) And all our King requires of us is that we follow Him….on that Way that He took, the Way of the cross. It truly is the one thing needed and we should simply believe Him.
I believe the Lord has been faithfully trying to speak to these people through various ways, trying to draw their attention to their own problems, to where they are going off track, but instead of applying it to themselves, they have been using these things to justify their own fantasy of making a utopia on earth. (The way our Lord speaks to us tests our hearts – notice how in scripture He doesn’t spell things out in a way that gives people the right answers – and He hasn’t changed.) Among other things, they’ve forgotten that Jesus is coming to judge the earth this time, and very soon….I hope at least some of them change course before it’s too late and decide to begin building that ark instead. His kingdom is not of this world.
Was anyone able to read the article before commenting?
E – Yes, as for me I read it in “phases” because it was very long, I take it you thought so too? May I ask what are your thoughts on it?
Was anyone able to read the article before commenting? Yes, of course. Do you think I missed something?
Thanks to BD for his kind words.
Given the problem with Google blocking my blog (suprise!), I’ve given BD permission to repost here. I’ll work on fixing it.
If Faytene wants to formally respond, I would like to ask her to send a copy to my for-public e-mail:
halfwaytoparadse AT hotmail.com
In haste as I am at work and thanks….
Therese & Buckets;
I was merely asking if anyone was able to use the link before Google blocked it. While Buckets response seemed directly linked to the article, Therese’s comments were broader, so I was wondering if anyone was able to get the link to work. I think this would be a great resource and was interested in reading.
For future reference, if I ever had any questions or wanted to dive deeper in discussion on a point that someone posted, I would like to think I would do it much more tactfully then accusing people of not reading the article. I grow spiritually from conversation, discussion and at times disagreement. I would hope to foster conversation, not stifle it with a rather sarcastic comment.
Blessings
E, Thank you for clarifying – I had a virus alert come up when I opened the article, but it said my computer had taken care of it, so I had no problem opening it up. I didn’t realize the virus warning came up for others, or that some would not be able to open the site. Do please let us know your thoughts…I have no idea what you think of this ministry or ‘dominion theology’ in general.
I’ve got Google working now on seeing if there is a problem with the post/my blog. Hopefully it will be cleared up soon. I’ve sent BD an e-mail about it…
FYI:
Malwarebytes is a free anti-malware program
that comes highly recommended.
It catches things that the ‘high end’ protection programs miss.
Worked for me.
There is much to digest in this Rick Hiebert article.
It is a long one.
I will comment further on The Cry…of the mislead.
For here, I would like to state that everyone should take a
length of time to get the facts and get the whole picture.
We are not dealing with a Todd Bentley here.
Nor a Peter Wagner.
Most know it is not Biblical to ‘take over the Country’ by violence.
Likewise, most know it is not Biblical to speak falsely.
Hence, get the facts.
Example: Calling this ministry ‘Dominionist’ simply because the
word “Dominion” is used/encouraging Christians to become
more involved in Government/areas of influence.
My point: Did you know that Islam Sharia Law almost became law
in Canada recently? Do you all want Muslims to rule and reign in
Canada/USA the way they do in Pakistan? Read about the world-
wide take over by violence, by Islam. There are many websites.
puritanboard.com/f34/islam-population-video-47567/
prophecynewswatch.com/
Do you really think that by only “loving” and “serving”
we are fulfilling our entire duty to Christ?
Just ask the former Christian Nation of Britain about that.
Just ask Obama, who states that the USA is NOT a Christian Nation.
Britain has been so taken over by Muslims and Islam, that
churches are being turned into Mosques. Islamists now hold
positions of power throughout Britain, and Europe.
Down the drain went all the good works, love, and serving
of the Christians, because they failed to see the storm coming
and do something about it.
If we don’t stand up for the Bible and Christ, our current rights
and freedoms will be lost.
I state I strongly disagree with the NAR, ICA, Dominionists, etc.
I state I do agree that Christians must step up and put the
Godly principles of the Bible back into our Nations.
If we don’t do it, who will?
God Bless every ‘Berean’ here.
Randy, this isn’t about Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Buddhists, agnostics etc. it is about Christianity – a particular group who have embraced several streams of theology from the 20th century which are extra-biblical.
The speakers advocate Joels’ Army, embrace Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God, Third Wave, Prosperity – all doctrines which were rejected by mainstream pentecostal and charismatics.
IHOP is closely tied to NAR.
Some are part of NAR’s apostle group or round table.
The Canadian National House of Prayer says they are training Nazarites. There are two Nazarites in the Old Testament.
Some of TheCry speakers helped set Bentley up, were on his board.
The ties are stong.
What is your definition of a dominionist?
If Dominion is used to encourage Christians to become more involved in government why is dominionism taught?
I’m going to stay away from your point about the UK, which is your belief.
That’s sidetracking.
We are discussing Canada.
The difficulty is we don’t discuss Canada, we don’t discuss our own sects, extra-biblical doctrines, abberancy which has become part of our own faith.
Therese;
Thank you for the question Therese, about what I think regarding the Cry, the theology of Dominion and such topics. What I will say, is that I truly believe these people believe what they are doing is right and honorable. I would lean toward Rick H in his assessment, that there are good things that go on, and that those good things should be highlighted.
My belief is that none of us are immune to the temptation to just allow the text of the Bible to season our lives, instead of letting each scripture point us to the one to whom we submit our life, Jesus.
There are a lot of bible quoting bible toting Christians who have not let their hearts be soften by the presence of Christ, the one all the scriptures are pointing to and the one who is coming through the text. John 5:39-40 talks about this very notion. Pharisees searching the text to find the living Christ, when He was standing right in front of them.
It is easy to say it is that “other kinds” of Christians that need to hear the words of Christ, or come back a “true understanding of the Word of God” or a “pure love for the Word”. There is always someone else we can point the finger at, like those evangelical television stars, or those charismatics, those liturgical Christians, or in this case the “dominion theology” crew. Though I believe it is important to teach truth, I like to take a slice of humble pie now and again when giving these “assessments”.
If we were all being honest, on any given day of the week, we can all play the role of Pharisees, or perhaps the role of someone misinterpreting the Bible (as many here have suggested the Dominion Theology crew are doing). I might be an absolutely committed Christ follower, but there could be a topic that presses my buttons, that gets under my emotional skin and all of a sudden my bigoted, arrogant sinful nature can abrupt. That, “I’m going to quote a bunch of scriptures to win this argument” sentiment can take hold and can be ugly.
In my opinion, for Christians, scripture memorization is less important than scripture internalization. Recitation is less important than proclamation and demonstration. That doesn’t mean scripture memory is not important, but think, the Pharisees knew the Bible inside and out. It is more important for the Bible to become metabolized, so that when we fully internalize it the message of Jesus becomes natural to our thought life.
The goal would be that when we speak the message of Christ comes out in our own words and naturally lives in our actions. It is more important that we can communicate the gospel naturally and authentically in our own words, in and in our own life, rather than just quoting a random text. Take for example Acts Chapter 17, Paul never once quotes scripture. God forbid we say Paul wasn’t giving the gospel message, or delivering the Word of God.
I believe that though the “Dominion Theology” folk know scripture, can recite it, and believe what they are doing is right, that in someways they are missing Jesus in their interpretation of texts, which lead to beliefs and then behaviors. Knowing the Bible and being able to spout off scripture, doesn’t always mean one is living a cruciformed life.
Jesus eschewed the political system of his day. One cannot argue that. He did not spread His gospel through power, persuasion or force. He obeyed the laws, payed temple tax, but never engaged the political arena to move His message.
I would humbly submit that those points may be the large errors the “dominion” crew deal with and everything else controversial can stem from that. I am not quite sure that Jesus asks us to set up a kingdom for Him, rather He asks us to prepare a place in our hearts for Him. Power is never a good thing, and in my opinion, neither are Christians in power. We don’t handle power well, any of us. I don’t believe we were meant to.
I don’t believe that changing the laws of the land will somehow change the hearts of man. I think we see the OT as an example of that very notion not working. One can write laws on a tablet, or on the legislature of Canada, and it doesn’t mean that righteousness and holiness will ensue. Until one submits fully to the Lordship of Christ, laws, government, power, control will be of no good. Jesus asks us to make disciples. And, if Christians were fully engaged in that, and lives were being changed, perhaps there would be no need to rally and protest for laws to be changed.
That is my humble opinion, but after being a part of The Cry in the past and 4mycanada, after speaking with Faytene on numerous occasions, and having a first hand knowledge of what really happens, this is what I believe.
Thanks E, a very thoughtfully written comment IMO, and I can say amen to most of it in principle. I don’t agree about highlighting the good things about a ministry if that ministry is fundamentally in error though. In such cases, the seeming good things can act as a smoke screen to confuse the issues and camouflage a deception. The rest of what you are saying doesn’t at all countermand the biblical instructions and examples about testing all things, judging those within the church, warning of deceptions, etc. I think it’s important that believers be clear about distinguishing deception from biblical truth, which also can mean searching out and being aware of the hidden roots of a thing which may not appear quite so bad on the surface as it really is in truth. To me this is the valuable service being done by this blog. Gaining understanding of these things is a relatively recent area of growth in my life personally.
E: “My belief is that none of us are immune to the temptation to just allow the text of the Bible to season our lives, instead of letting each scripture point us to the one to whom we submit our life, Jesus.
There are a lot of bible quoting bible toting Christians who have not let their hearts be soften by the presence of Christ, the one all the scriptures are pointing to and the one who is coming through the text. John 5:39-40 talks about this very notion. Pharisees searching the text to find the living Christ, when He was standing right in front of them.”
Amen! I love what you wrote here.