By Rick Hiebert. All Rights Reserved. Used by Permission.
Todd Bentley may no doubt hope that when it comes to the Internet that his potential audience listens to a mighty wind and not a still small voice.
This morning The Elijah List sent out the text of Rick Joyner’s latest statement about the restoration of Todd Bentley. (You may remember that I reported on it last week, not just once, but twice.
Steve Shultz, an Oregon charismatic teacher and writer, has created the biggest charismatic e-list on the Internet, complete with bookstore and other initiatives. Shultz sometimes sends ads to his e-list, which I don’t object to. But I mention that in order to point out that Shultz may have been paid by Rick Joyner to spread the word to his subscribers, which are over 100,000 around the world.
(I don’t think this was an ad, though, as Shultz has appended his own comment to the statement, which I may comment on later…)
If you hoped to get the word out amongst charismatics, The Elijah List is one way to go, as it has a great deal of Internet reach. It is very loud.
But it is something soft in volume, which has trickled out to the Internet, that I want to broadcast myself.
John Paul Jackson is some ways would be a natural to associate with the folks at The Elijah List. A very charismatic teacher and writer, he has his own ministry. Wikipedia reminds us that Jackson was one of the infamous “Kansas City Prophets”, but I don’t have a lot of knowledge about how orthodox he may be today.
It would be my guess that Jackson should naturally tend to agree with people like Rick Joyner, but he has chosen, somewhat quietly, to publicly differ with Joyner on one issue–the restoration of Todd Bentley. Jackson’s opinion? It may be too quick and it may be misguided.
Sometime in the past few weeks, John Paul Jackson sent out a letter to his supporters. I am guessing thsi was perhaps sometime in January. The apparent full text of his letter has been quoted on a couple blogs now, but I will be reprinting the full text, as I saw it, as a comment for your information.
Jackson favours restoration of ministers, but he argues that when a minister falls that they need to go through five stages of restoration, each of which, if done properly, takes at least a year. (It’s been about a year and a half since the collapse of the Lakeland revival.) He writes that “….ministers in the restoration process should be given responsibility slowly, and we should observe how they handle it. Pride was the fall of Satan, and it is the basis for the fall of humankind. Premature promotion will wipe out the brokenness and contrition that invite God to come near and continue the healing.”
Jackson goes on to use what I think is sensible Biblical logic. It leads him to decide that Todd Bentley committed adultery.
He writes (I have added emphasis):
We, the Body of Christ, not only fail to distinguish between grace and righteousness, but between forgiveness and restoration. Forgiveness is given the instant there is sorrowful repentance, but restoration only comes with trust and trust is earned. Thus Paul could order the man who was sexually involved with his step mother to be thrown out of the church for the destruction of his flesh (1 Cor. 5) and then after deep sorrow was exhibited Paul ordered the man to be restored to the Body of Christ (2 Cor. 2). Sadly, today we would say Paul lacked grace, and call him legalistic and self-righteous.
So back to the issue of Todd Bentley. Jesus said this, “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery†Matt. 19:9. The fact is this–Todd has committed adultery. He planned out and premeditated the divorce from Shonnah. He, immediately after Lakeland, went to Hawaii with Jessa, whom he later married. Subsequently, though Todd is from Canada, he went to Reno, Nevada to get as quick a divorce (six weeks residency) to marry Jessa. In Canada it takes over a year to get a divorce.
Divorce is wrong for anyone, it is even more grievous when it occurs in ministers and this is why their judgment is even stricter (James 3:1). I believe Scripture is clear about leadership and divorce therefore Todd Bentley should not be back in ministry for a long while. Further, that Todd did this while the Lakeland meetings were in process only underscores the deep need Todd has for healing on many levels. I do not believe this depth of healing can take place in a few weeks or months. Biblically speaking, Todd’s restoration should be stricter than someone who was not in that position or in ministry.
Wow. It’s probably the clearest such statement from anyone in Bentley and Joyner’s wing of the church.
Matt Sorger, a former Bentley intern, started writing prophetic words about personal integrity right after Lakeland, without mentioning Bentley’s name.
John Arnott’s TACF used to issue a magazine, Spread the Fire. As Lakeland was starting to unravel, Spread the Fire readers got a slightly stale-dated magazine praising Bentley and Lakeland. The next issue of the semi-monthly magazine dwelt on the need for integrity by ministers, without naming any names or citing any examples.
Patricia King, an old friend of Bentley’s, recorded a series of short videos talking about Bentley and the collapse of the Lakeland revival, trying to address it frankly, but lovingly in the context of when ministers fail. A couple of days after her last video went on the Internet, the entire series was pulled from her site and YouTube, with no explanation.
But, of all these, only Jackson is trying to bell the cat.
He adds that it is time for judgement to begin in the house of God.
I believe that his conclusion is telling as well:
While I trust this answers the questions many of you have asked concerning my view of Todd Bentley’s restoration; the sad truth is – this is not just about Todd Bentley, it is about the Church, the Body of Christ as a whole. Todd is merely a reflection of us. This does not excuse Todd, neither does Todd’s actions excuse the Church. We have not demanded righteousness from our leaders. I agree with the Apostle Peter, “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God†1Pet. 4:17. It is time for the Body of Christ to once again be able to trust those who minister in the Word.
For that to occur, we must take courage and begin to speak up concerning issues such as this. We must lead righteously, love deeply, and give grace and mercy to those who are deeply repentant. We must confront those who scheme, do not want to repent, and in turn demand we follow their agenda. We must return to the word of God and apply it correctly. We must live what we preach once again. If we do not, the world will continue to mock the church and yawn when the prophets speak.
Jackson specializes in the Biblical gift of prophecy. As one of the charismatics who believe that the Biblical gift of prophecy is valid today, he spends much energy developing resources to teach other charismatics about this. But while he believes in the New Testament type of prophecy, I think he may have a bit of an Old Testament prophet in him here, speaking the truth when it may be inconvenient to some people.
I don’t endorse everything that Jackson writes or says, but I think he has some wisdom in this particular instance. Will it be heeded?
Todd Bentley has a choice…he can either listen to the chorus of The Elijah List and its friends, or it can heed still, small voices like Jackson’s.
I know which voice the Bible would suggest that he listen for.
DM: “In the past 9 years I have been terrorized by a religious cult that has grown in a astounding rate. They are true wolves in sheep clothing, Practicing black witches.
Presenting them selves as end time prophets, healers and teachers. They were involved with serious crimes in which we exposed.”
Name names please! I too have suspicions. Also, I met a former friend who I used to meet with many times a week for prayer/coffee etc. He now pastors his father-in-law’s church. I met him in church after not hearing from him for 10 years, he was visiting. In the spirit I detected something I couldn’t put my finger on. It bugged me for 48 hours – it was/is that RELIGIOUS spirit/demon. 10 years ago I hand delivered a warning to him to be aware of it – I see he did not refuse the spirit tho. And it is not only in him but in his little group of friends. I see now he was fellowshipping with me as a proxy “pastor” and not out of true love. He would not even go for coffee with me – which triggered the suspicion, your noting that spirit of religion made me recall rhat I had warned him in 2000. Thanks.
————-
naxus – please do spill all beans. I know todd has that ring and also gross evil tattoos ie the monkey in the “face” of “Jesus” and the mighty warrior [lmao] on his chicken leg shin. I saw a youtube of bentley being in a Chucky Cheese in Florida – without anyone with him. He was leering at the kids and some mom video taped him bc she was SURE he was some sicko (he still is) and wanted some evidence to hand to the police. He was very creepy, why go to a Chucky Cheese alone, and leer at the children? He had this fake smile the whole time – gross. Also at lakeland his kids looked quite like they had painful secrets. Wonder what.
laws 632
Your situation is your own and Holy Spirit is there for you. Me telling you would not help you or I. I am growing and becoming more influenced by God’s love, Jesus and Holy Spirit, as I do the word of God and his standard guidelines and precepts help govern me.
As Father God has encouraged my heart and Holy spirit has been helping me navigate through the difficult trials and there is one thing I am sure of, that is the need to pay attention to heart issues.
When it comes to being loved, excepted or treated kindly by others we can expect we will experience injustices in life, and for me personally I have learned even a person with a fervent heart set on holiness and pleasing God can become defiled by abuses, fear and wrong prospective.
We can walk in attitudes of judgment, false perception and take out our fear or pain on others at any given moment if the wright button is pushed. Through the pain of my experiences I have let down friends and family, I have been unjust with a short fuse, I have fallen in to blaming, anger and rage. Yet the mercy of God up holds me daily and has through the past years of serious afflictions. I know the pain of my personal shortcomings and what it feels like to say and do things you would have never done prior to the trials of affliction.
It truly is sad you experienced rejection with your friend. I do not know you or the person you speak of, what I do know is if you belong to God, Jesus is your lord and Savior the wisdom and benefits of those relationships will not just carry you through the wounding but align you and position you for restoration and justice if the situation calls for it . The heart is so important, do not hold offense, where you see corruption ask Holy Spirit how to handle it.
So many years my husband and I spent confused on how to stand, how to fight and how to discern the chaos and assaults and offenses. The thing that weighed most heavy on our hearts was the innocent people who were enticed and in snared in to the corruption of the cult leader. Having been given a heart for loving and protecting others when I was conceived and the heart of a intercessor I carried more responsibility in matters than I should have. I was driven to put a stop to this cult’s ability to violate others. It was to my detriment. It was to much for us to carry in our personal ability, how to know when to fight, in the spiritual and when in the natural and how to appropriately execute either in timing and agreement with the Lord is not always easy.
I guess you can say I have had a lot of on the job training and learned much the hard way. Council given us was conflicting, books we read that were biblical based and other testimonials were increasing the difficulty of navigation on handling matters as we found our selves using the puzzle pieces from the lives of others and their personal views in our puzzled life. We had received wisdom from some resources but because we were so isolated and sleep deprived through those years we weakened and it was as if our identity in Christ was darkened and the accuser attacked so consistently we had difficulty holding our own. We would lose sight of the good in us in God and began to fear people because we were so often set up for betrayals, rejection and attacks on our character.
laws632 It was our bitter anger of the injustice and the hatred and resentment we felt toward those doing injustice toward us that opened the door That allowed the enemy to gain foot holds in our souls and reek havoc with our lives. It changed us so much and our enemies gloried in exploiting our fear and anger, setting us up repeatedly for public displays and in home private emotional explosive spats which tore at our hearts defiled our sense of goodness and broke down our ability to love and tolerance toward imperfections in each other. It destroys inner confidence in who we really are in Christ and clouded over the goodness with. You see that is the point of my posting, I can only give what I have received and I know the leverage it gives to the enemy when we attack with bitterness and resentment with wrong motives, motives filtered through our souls persecution and unhealthiness.
As far a Bentley, quite honestly I knew almost nothing about him as I stumbled on to this blog, and what has been written here is alarming yet I can say the people who have terrorized us through the years have been equally corrupt. Never the less it has been our learning to hand them over to the Lord to be judged in his court that has started things in motion letting God remove all bitterness and hatred and allowing him to restore what we can not on our own that is changing us.
Our identity and goodness are being restored and made solid in Christ.
If the prayer of a honest man can move the heart of God to not wipe out a entire group of people because of their evil deeds and the situation change for the good is that not what we need to learn to do? Not prayer for evil to avail but cease by divine intervention. When leaders fail to protect, discern, or hold to account it is totally except-able to express a concern and ask for proper correction but it is not ok to get in to a vicious attack and fault finding feud. It assaults and darkens the minds of the readers. It’s fruit is not in agreement with the word of God, it can not produce life in to the situation.
In the natural when a foremen screws up and will not listen when complaints are made about the hazardous behavior of a employee then you go over his head to the top authority, for Christians it is the Lord who is the Just Judge. It is his invested interest that provisions were made with in the church and establishment of the church were Based.
You do not need me to name names you need the Holy Spirit to reveal your heart to you and give you clarity in the situation you have experienced. Know how to pray and walk free from the spirit that came against you in the interaction. Hand the person over to the Lord for him to Judge the matter and move forward to a healthier friendship if you can.
Blessings to you laws632 I pray the glory of the Lord visit you and your heart be encouraged today to embrace his love and release any you may be holding captive.
@DM in response to law632, I just wanted to say that your testimony and the wisdom that has been placed in you through the situations you have been through, what the Lord has brought you and you spouse through. Matters of the heart, I believe God is waiting for us His people to fall inline, Jesus already paid the price He already made the way and showed it to us. I pray God’s blessing and strength continue to be with you, reading this post has really blessed me and I know what I must keep doing.
Grace and Peace to you. Romans 8:28
My own redeemed spirit is grieved whenever The Holy Spirit is referred to as Holy Spirit. When you do term The Holy Spirit as Holy Spirit you are referring to ‘a’ spirit and not The Holy Spirit who is the third person of the Godhead. I caution any Christian who uses this term. This term comes from a horrible stem of Christianity[NAR, and the Vineyard type churches] as far as I understand it. I view a stem as a dead branch of a plant.
Several of us can attest to the fact, and the Bible clearly shows that hallelujah we serve a God of second chances. Although restoration is certainly the wisest move when a leader has fallen, I question the concept of placing a timing on it. Consider, please, that Peter denied his very Lord Jesus three times, yet he went into immediate service; Paul martyred Christians, and there was no slow restoration; and here is a biggie : King David , who the Bible calls “a man after God’s heart” and from whose line our precious Lord and Saviour came committed adultery with Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah. He then compounded the sin of adultery by having her husband killed, and yet with David’s repentance, God did not only not demand a time of restoration, but he did not take away the kingdom from him, nor did he take away the tremendous ministries from these other great sinners. God knows the heart of all men. I don’t. I have just gotten on this site, and I will now pray for discernment concerning all of these people because I believe in the gifts, and I believe that according to the Word, God gives wisdom to those who ask with an open, believing heart to hear Him. One thing I do believe, though, is that we can not put God into a box and make him behave the way that we expect or want him to behave.
I am not a prophetess, false or otherwise, but I have heard within my spirit the words of an hymn for days now, and I would like to present them to you.
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus:
Oh! precious is the flow that makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know, Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my pardon this I see, Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
For my cleansing, this my plea, Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Nothing can for sin atone, Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Naught of good that I have done, Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
This is all my hope and peace, Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
This is all my righteousness, Nothing but the blood of Jesus,
Oh! precious is the flow that makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know, Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
The blood of Jesus is enough. Ps. 51:7
The first time I saw Bentley, I knew immediately, he was a con-artist. I sat in disbelief month after month, as I would flip through “Christian” TV stations,and come across this man ranting and raving about nothing . His body covered with markings. There was nothing about him that said, Redeemed! How I Love to Proclaim it. He was a one man circus. He had a dual aim, to gain world acclaim and make as much money from “The New Stupid Church” as he possibly could.
I do not care who the preacher is, if what they say does not stand up to the Word of God, It must be discounted all together. That includes EVERY Preacher/Teacher. Be it Jimmy Swaggert or Charles Stanley, Todd Bentley or David Jeremiah. The majority of the Church doesn’t even Know the Word of God, thus they have no way of knowing when a man speaks truth and when he speaks lies. When I was growing up, we had to memorize Scriprure. verse after verse after verse. Now Stupid churches hire stupid childrens and youth directors to play stupid games, to keep the attention of the stupid children, whose minds have been seared by the playing of stupid games. All of this resulting from the new stupid parent who Has no time or desire to raise their stupid children in the Word of God. How Can you call yourselves His, and do not do things He commands you????? BE VERY CAREFUL, ESPECIALLY YOU WITH THE GIFT OF MERCY. DO NOT LET THAT GIFT RULE YOU TO THE POINT THAT YOU MAKE IT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE WORD OF GOD.
I realize the word stupid is offensive to many, but we must realize stupidity comes from the lack of teaching, the lack of learning, the lack of understanding truth, Thy Word is Truth.
These people are tickling your ears and you are crying, do it again and again and again.
You don’t want the Word, you want a continual emotional high, and people like Todd Bentley will continue to come play on that desire, because You Want Them To!!!!! Get
in the Word, not in books. Get in the Word. Get in the Word. Get in the Word!!!!!!!!!!!
Then when some circus clown tries to tickle your ears you can say, ” That is not what the Word says. I will stand with the Word. Goodbye circus clown.
i believe that we have one judge and he is in heaven. I believe the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.
carmac, you really should be careful about the way you use the word stupid. If you call your brother “fool” or raca your in danger of hellfire.
Erica:
Seems a tad severe to condemn someone to an eternity of unimaginable pain, torture, torment, anguish and unbearable agony basically for describing a personality characteristic.
How the transgression fits the sentence in this case is an obscurity. If I understand the objective correctly, taken to an excessive illustration, a person could serve God his or her entire life impeccably – then in the last 10 seconds of existence, call someone stupid and be preordained to hell. How does common sense, evenhandedness and adoration for mankind figure in with this conviction that simply calling someone a fool could get you a ticket to cross the river Styx without having to pay the Talisman? Just how inequitable is this scripture?
Shirla:
35 years ago I began my Christian experience because of my fear of being sent to hell. Christianity views the universe as a three-storied configuration, with dirt in the center, cloud nine above, and the criminal world beneath.
Heaven is the residence of God and of the winged, ethereal, likeness of mankind. The underworld is Hades, the place of above average temperatures and eternal discomfort. Much like Winnipeg in summer. Man is not in control of his life. Evil spirits may take control. Satan may whisper evil thoughts. Such a world of mythology! And millions believe it!
Simply put – this is a cosmology of a pre-scientific era. To modern man . . . the mythical view of the world is ancient history. No one can seriously hold the entire N.T. view of the world without risking questions of sanity. We no longer believe in the three-storied cosmos. No one old enough to reason for himself supposes that God lives in a neighboring heaven. There is no longer any paradise in the traditional sense. The same applies to hell in the sense of a mythical underworld just below our feet.
” BE VERY CAREFUL, ESPECIALLY YOU WITH THE GIFT OF MERCY. DO NOT LET THAT GIFT RULE YOU TO THE POINT THAT YOU MAKE IT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE WORD OF GOD.”
Oh, My brother in Christ, what a wonderful through the backdoor compliment you just paid me!! My Father God is a God of mercy. My Savior Jesus Christ is the biggest example of mercy that ever walked on this earth. To quote the Word, the Bible, and Jesus who Himself is the Word according to the book of John: When Jesus was being crucified for our sins – not His sins – he said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” If that is not showing fantastic, fabulous mercy, my brother in Jesus, what is?
Now, I attended a very large conference in Tennesse this last weekend in which Todd Benson was one of the speakers, and I decided that I would use a compassionate but discerning spirit because that is also another of my gifts. This man stood up there in the middle of his sermon that was completely Bible based and said in giving his testimony that he sinned and he spent the next 17 months learning to love Jesus all over again. Now, I want to know how many of us have stood up in front of an audience of hundreds and a streaming online audience and publicly confessed like that? Perhaps others reading this have, but I have not.
Do I extend mercy? Do I want mercy extended to me? What does the Word of God say about mercy? That is what I try to use to help me direct my actions.
Todd Benson?
It makes it a lot easier to stand in front of hundreds and confess when you know your paycheck is on the line.
How much money did you give that night?
Meredith
You should consider seeing a well thought-of professional. Todd Benson sounds like Todd Bentley – one of the most parasitic, counterfeit, and pathetically preposterous evangelists ever to charm the pulpit. But are you certain you were at a religious rally and not a Memphis Grizzlies basketball game? Maybe your Rolodex of discerning spirits was a little off that night.
I agree with what John Paul Jackson said, regarding Todd Bentley. However, here is a nagging problem:
John Paul Jackson is close friends with Marcus and Joni Lamb.
Why isn’t John Paul calling for Marcus and Joni Lamb to resign from Daystar?
It is not nearly enough for Marcus to stop preaching for one year and, then, be “on probation,” the second year.
He and Joni need to step down from all ministry completely, especially since Joni participated in the cover-up.
Yet, unless I am completely mistaken, John Paul’s silence regarding Marcus and Joni is deafening.
I read editorials and the ensuing comments because I am interested in what other people think; however, in the long run, I rather believe I am inclined to agree with Albert Einstein who said, “I want to know God’s thoughts. The rest are details.” With that in mind, I go back to God’s Word, The Bible, and look at what He had to say about sin and restitution.
Many of the greatest people in the Bible sinned and were given second chances, but I will focus on a couple who had a tremendous impact on all of Christendom. King David, who was called “A man after God’s own heart,” lusted after a woman, commited adultery and impregnated her, panicked and had her husband positioned in a place where he would be killed which is essentially murder. God did take the life of the baby, but because David repented, notice God not only did NOT take the kingdom away from David, he immediately gave him with that same woman a second chance to establish a dynasty from which on his mother’s side our Lord Jesus eventually came . Notice that there was no waiting period involved. King David’s restitution was with God and not with man.
The next perhaps even more powerful example is the apostle Peter who denied his Master, his Messiah, his Savior Jesus Christ. Peter, who immediately repented and cried bitter tears, went on without any particular restitution on the Day of Pentecost full of the Holy Ghost to preach salvation and win 3,000 people into the Kingdom. Again, his restitution was with God.
Do I think people who in are in leadership and who fall from grace need mentoring? Yes…but I think we need to be careful about putting what kinds of stipulations “we” put on the restitution and call it from God when we don’t see that backed up in the Word.
Meredith:
You may be inclined to acquiesce to Einstein whose quote (like many others) is often taken out of context and held up by mendacious Christians as a trophy of sorts to demonstrate that Einstein was an advocate of superstitious Christian belief. Nothing could be more blatantly false and misleading. I’ve seen this ridiculous poster in churches.
Please read (with references to source) a few Einstein quotations.
The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
– Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, “Childish Superstition: Einstein’s Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist’s Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs” The Guardian, (13 May 2008)
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere…. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
– Albert Einstein, “Religion and Science,” New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
– Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press
Meredith: “Many of the greatest people in the Bible sinned and were given second chances,”
Really?
Consider the concept of “forgiveness for one’s sins”, wherein every wrong is obliterated and you begin afresh with a unsoiled slate the instant you accept/believe in some subjective god, or return to him/her for a rejuvenation. How can this promote personal responsibility for one’s actions? How can this encourage thinking for oneself, enlightening yourself whether something is erroneous or accurate, instead of just doing what is spoon fed?
National Geographic Magazine in the December 2010 issue laid to rest the fables of King David. Robert Draper noted: …”despite decades of searching, archaeologists had found no solid evidence that David or Solomon ever built anything.”
And can you give us any evidence whatsoever (aside from the bible) that Peter won 3,000 people into the kingdom? Where else is this recorded in history? Who wrote the gospel whereby this is noted? What is your evidence?
Name me even a single contemporary historian who supports this rubbish.
AtheistAtBirth, absolutely, I cannot argue with you! With a smile on my face I tell you that I walk by faith and not by sight. There is “no evidence” of those 3,000 people unless you consider the entire Christian movement that had to get started somehow. Common sense dictates that we have to go from the handful of people who watched a man die on a cross to the estimated 1 billion people who claim the name Christian. We do have the very early history of Josephus. We do know there were thousands scattered, and we do know that Nero martyred them by lighting them as torches for his pleasure, and still he could not wipe out the movement. In addition, there are the catacombs in Rome – the archaeological evidence – of the Christian’s underground existence.
I don’t feel the need to prove everything. Because I enjoy reading, I do see that the archaeologists in the Holy Land are occasionally finding things that do indeed prove places and things that in the Scripture. They most certainly aren’t through with their work!
Spiritually, I am on my way to Heaven, and I am loading up the bus. I am not going alone. I am going to take as many people as I can with me. My birth name is Meredith. When I die, if I am right about the things I believe, I will go to be with Jesus Christ the one that I say those 3,000 folks also believed, who died that day on the cross for my sins in my stead. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. I go nowhere. Now, I want to take you, my friend Atheist, with me on that spiritual bus. When you die, if I am right, where are you going to go? Are you going to go to Heaven with me? One of us has an awful lot to lose if I am right.
Meredith, just a couple of things… Firstly, Josephus is questionable at best and secondly, we also had the great library of Alexandria, which was destroyed for a reason, can you guess what that reason was? I think the number of Christians would be quite different today, had that library survived.
Thank you, Tim, for your reply. I went back and googled the Jewish historian Josepheus who lived during the first century, and immediately the questionable, controversial portions of the texts were highlighted. However, even if we remove those statements, and assume that perhaps an early Christian scribe inserted them, we still have Josepheus stating that Jesus, a wise man wrought surprising feats, won over many Jews and Greeks, who did not give up their affections for him, after he was crucified. “And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
Josepheus is accepted as a Jewish (albeit non-Christian) historian of the first century. Stripped of even the slightest allusion to deity and the resurrection, his account still confirms the emergence and continued existence of the Christians.
I am sorry, Tim, that I am not understanding to what you are referring in relation to the library at Alexandria. However, in my belief, it is the awesome, loving, powerful, convicting work of the Holy Spirit that was with that little band in the upper room, that has been with every martyr, and has been the driving force that has spread Christianity through the ages and that will be until His work is completed.
dear atheist… and tim when one sets out to prove anything there are certain rules to follow.is/ant is so, ant… isn’t hardly ever used. what is often used is witnesses,and evidence. Now GOD being all mighty and having given his opinion of “you” already, is not likely to testify and, can not be compelled to. So how about Jesus ? nope again he has nothing for you, now. So we have to use existing facts, records, documents and historical evidence.SO first I submit the Jew. The Jewish old testament in Hebrew. Well, a feller named Alexander made them translate it to Greek. So what you say ? well some of these works told of things that would happen to the lord thousands of years later.( he wasn’t born yet) His birth, death ( manner of ) and thousands of other things. all translated thousands of years before his birth. Tellin the future. The book of Daniel is telling of stuff that is happening now.and if the whole bible were lost their are enough quotes in ancient manuscripts to replace the whole.However none of this matters to very wise people like you., I had the grate privilege of meeting the author. He has done many wonderful things for me. I choose eternal life, love and blessings, poor stupid me oh, and i get other blessings in this life also. I do keep his word.this keeps me out of trouble don”t kill don’t steal.. I am sorry that we the body have failed you. so in closing one final thought the lord is very meek however, he is lord you must meet him on his terms. Lord of all or not your Lord at all. Oh, a word of warning if you reject him now he will be angry with you when he comes back real soon..
Meredith,
During a time of my own personal ignorance of history, combined with religious vehemence, many of my own opinions supporting Christianity resonated with yours. Happily, I studied and reasoned my way out of the mind trap which has clouded your judgment.
It is deeply disconcerting to study your lexis which reveals a fundamental lack of knowledge compensated only by ”faith”.
Faith is a non-rational belief in some proposition contrary to the sum of the evidence for that belief, and in the case of Jesus, the sum of the evidence is overwhelming evidence against the belief. Delusions are pathological beliefs which persist despite clear evidence that they are actually false.
I have previously stated there were many historians living during the time of Jesus, but none of them mentioned him, his miracles or the any of the unique events in the gospels. That’s right– not one. Nothing was written about Jesus during his assumed lifetime or shortly thereafter. The gospels were written 40 to 100 years after the time of the crucifixion by people who wanted to start a new religion.
If Jesus lived, nobody noticed. You have failed to understand that Josephus was born in 37AD. He was neither an eyewitness to Christ, nor does the record narrate him as a beneficial scribe. If you intend to base your belief system on such trifling credibility you are simply delusional.
The very fact that you reject providing evidence reinforces the premise you are brainwashed. This is exactly what one might expect to find with indoctrinated cultists, and precisely why it is so oblique to attempt to engage Christians in any meaningful discourse. If you took these problems of lack of evidence seriously, and engaged me respectfully, then it would show me you really are interested in the truth.
Read and learn – no one knows who really wrote most of the bible. Moses did not write the first five books of the Old Testament. The names of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were affixed to the gospels by the early Church fathers. The bible is not “holy”, it is minimally an anthology of myths, laws and embellished histories of the Isrealites (for the Old Testament) and the teachings of a new religion (for the New Testament). The authorship of most of the books of the bible is unknown. Ordinary men decided which books would make up the bible and which books should be trashed– by voting on it at Laodicea in 365. This was not concluding– a a small number of books were included that would later be omitted, and the Book of Revelation was abandoned. Revelation made it in at the Council of Carthage in 397, but the Book of Lammentations was rejected. Argument continued as late as the 6th Constantinople Council in 629. The Protestants did not settle on on which books should be in their bibles until 1647, at the Assembly of Westminster. There was nothing holy about it!
You are heaven bound! Good for you. I’m grounded in facts, in truth, and clear thinking which is free and unencumbered by tradition, superstition, and fear of punishment. My heaven is in the here and now.
Atheist, from my personal point of view, this discussion has now become futile. I appreciate your response; however, there is no way that your strong bias will sway me from my strong conviction. Therefore, we are at a crossroads. If I am delusional, I am a highly educated, contented, happily delusional Christian. If I am stupid – as suggested in an above post – then I reply, “Pour a little more of that “stupid” on me,” because I need all of it that I can get in this world in which we live.
I will admit to being a little curious as to why you are on here. It must be frustrating to run up against people such as I am who genuinely care about you and who will not be swayed no matter how intelligently you present your argument or who will refuse to cow down in the face of insults!
You have your line of well thought out, rehearsed reasoning, but I can’t help but think that you are on this board for a reason, and it is not the one for which you believe. At some point, somewhere down the road, you may in retrospect remember all of this and have an “ah ha!” moment.
Meredith, if you’re concerned at all about finding truth for yourself, not for us, then I wouldn’t simply dismiss the library of Alexandria because you’ve never heard about it. I would start by doing some homework as to what it was and then why it was destroyed.
I would also recommend you read the history books that are in opposition to your belief system as it will do one of two things, either it will confirm your beliefs even more or it will prove they are a farce. Too many stick with reading what pleases them, rather than what challenges them. I challenge you to be challenged!
Meredith who said: “If I am delusional, I am a highly educated, contented, happily delusional Christian.”
Says it all … But I don’t believe you for an instant. Intelligent people are typically a inquiring group.
You see Meredith – most Christians feel their religion is “off limits” to critique. They become unglued at the prospect of having it challenged. Most have never confronted an adversarial viewpoint in an open, intellectual, guileless dialogue in their entire experience. Christians have never been forced to “think” about what and why they accept as true. Rather they have been taught to obey, not to challenge authority, and if something does not make sense – have faith. The ultimate insult to any thinking person is to accept as valid the poisonous notion of not touching thine anointed.
Your loathing of truth is the most disquieting part of this exchange of ideas – and when openly invited to defend your position, you abandon the argument based upon your convictions. How sad. Do you believe what you believe because of someone else’s elucidation of the bible, or because your family and friends assumed a religious viewpoint? Do sheer numbers sway you? If numbers are the critical assessment to a conviction, then why did you not choose Buddhism or Islam? Both religions have millions of adherents.
Put your intelligence to use, and ponder these questions:
Is it fair or rational for God to hide himself so that he can only be known by faith, then insist that every single human being find him by picking the right one out of thousands of conflicting and incompatible religions?
Why didn’t God simply create human beings such that they freely desire to do good, thus removing the need to create a Hell at all? (After all, this is the state that will exist in Heaven)
It is inconceivable to understand that if it was always God’s plan to provide salvation through Jesus, why didn’t he send Jesus from the very beginning, instead of confusing and misleading generations of people by setting up a religion called Judaism which he knew in advance would prove to be inadequate? What the hell was he waiting for?
As you pointed out – At some point, somewhere down the road, you may in retrospect remember all of this and have an “ah ha!” moment.
Meredith,
I quite agree this discussion has become insincere. It is to no avail to endeavor having a meaningful dialogue with someone who is close-minded, despises legitimacy, disdains specifics, rejects intellectual dissertation, and clings to prefabricated models of behavior built over acquiescence to authority figures who are equally delusional, disingenuous, and who have a vested interest in maintaining uninformed adherents.
James ..
Why would you ever assume responsibility for my de-conversion? I surrendered my faith. The church had absolutely no part in this decision. You are certainly not to blame, but I do thank you for your concern and wish to allay any of your feelings of guilt.
A great many things matter to me – especially truth. Thank you for being truthful. But don’t concern yourself for my well being. I am not at all concerned about the return of Jesus to judge the living and the dead. Until I can find any indication that he ever existed, I will remain content to ignore him totally.
Wow….that takes alot of faith to do that!….spot on!
Here are some interesting concepts of beginning and end, that are evident when studying conclusions.
Ecclesiasttes 1:9
“That which has been is what will be, that which is done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.”
Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy elected 100 years apart. Lincoln elected 1860, and Kennedy 1960. Both Vice Presidents with last name Johnson. Both Vice Presidents born 100 years apart. Andrew Johnson 1808, and Lyndon Johnson 1908. Both assassins born 100 years apart. Booth 1839 and Oswald 1939. Both Presidents shot on a Friday. Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy, and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln. Lincoln shot in a theater an assassin hid in a warehouse, and Kennedy shot from a warehouse and assassin hid in a theater. Southern radical shot both presidents.
Nation of Israel born in Promised Land and Jesus born in Promised Land. Israel taken to Egypt and Jesus taken to Egypt. Israel goes through the Red Sea and Jesus baptized in Jordan(Connected to Red Sea). 12 tribes birthed in Israel and 12 dissciples chosen in Israel. Israel a new nation born and Jesus has a new nation(the church) born. The Law at Pentecost in Old Testatment and New Testament church born at Pentecost. 3,ooo died worshiping a gold cow in Old Testatment and 3,000 save at Pentecost in New Testament.
Just some amazing parallels linking in history.
Erica, so sorry to wait so long to respond to you and others who remarked to me.
First, I never used the word fool, I used the word stupid. I used it to refer to people who have blindly, without knowledge of Scripture, followed whomever is the most exciting preacher at the moment. I used it to warn youth directors, pastors, parents and anyone else who will listen, that there is a need to go back to Scripture. To learn it and teach it. If someone knows the Word, they will be armed and aware when a false prophet begins to teach false doctrine. I referred to the Gift of Mercy, because they have a tendency to overlook scripture and go on feelings, not always, but it is a weakness of that gifting. Just like one with the gift of prophecy, has a tendency to be too harsh, with no mercy. That is why all the gifts are necessary to balance each other. Being stupid comes from not preparing ones self with the correct amo. You don’t go to war without the proper armor and weapons, or out to the garden without the proper tools. Likewise people should not depend on a preacher to teach them, without knowing what the Word says or having the ability to know how to double check what the Word says concerning what they just heard. Hype, and emotions can be deceiving. The Word will not ever be deceiving. There are movements afloat which are seeking to deceive, as the Scripture says, ‘even the very elect”. Meredith, YES our God is a god of mercy, Hallelujah, but He is not all mercy, he is also grace and truth and justice. He has many characteristics. We cannot pin mercy on him and ignore His justice. He is a conundrum of sorts. He hates divorce, yet He is currently divorced, He is love, yet he hated Esau. We as believers are seriously lacking in our knowledge of the Word, or we would not be so easily deceived when wolves in sheep’s clothing come in and teach false doctrine. I am only crying out for the called out ones to become intimate with the Word. If that offends you, then you most likely are not a called out one. Sola Scriptura.
A very simple question for some very complex questions: If you are sincerely an aetheist – or even agnostic – I have to ask you – why do you even care what I think or believe? Since you believe in nothing – or are apathetic at best – why should you care about what I believe? Do not misunderstand me…I am still concerned for your spiritual well-being, but I don’t understand how a true aetheist can not believe in a God and still care what anyone else believes.
Meredith
Maybe a little study on your part about what atheists believe would be an asset to your lack of understanding. Start with the proper spelling of the word and go from there. Bugs the crap out of you doesn’t it? Read and learn.
There are certainly enought “facts” in this world that anyone of any belief could pick a few to establish whatever they wanted to establish or to form any “belief” they would want to form. Even if one did not believe the words of the Bible, one would have to admit that there is a lot of good things taught from it. The Bible has brought a lot of stability to a lot of homes and the following of these teachings has changed a lot of lives and even whole households, to which I have been a witness. So, I see it as more positive than negative, and positive is good. I can see how a “wise” person of this world could take facts and say there is no God. Thing is, my God is not a God of this world. Yes, he created it, and everything good in it, but He is not sitting on a cloud somewhere waiting for all Christains to come to him when they die.
He is a God of the living. He is everywhere and knows all things. Because he IS a God of love, he did not want robots. He has given man a choice of believing and accepting him as Lord and Savior. What glory would be in making someone who HAD to accept you as Lord and Savior? You don’t want to believe in Him? Fine, that’s your choice.
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God”. 1Cor: 1:18
“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness”. 1Cor: 3:19
Oh, and by the way. What if you ARE wrong? You willing to bet your entire eternity on trying to make people understand how wise you are that you know all the facts that conclude God doesn’t exist. When you die, you will either cease to exist (if you are right) or, you will stand before the God that you don’t believe exists. Like I said, It’s your choice, God doesn’t make robots.
Faye says: “Even if one did not believe the words of the Bible, one would have to admit that there is a lot of good things taught from it” …
Oh – you mean like these passages Faye?
Matthew
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned “with unquenchable fire.” 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 7:19
“The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: “Let the dead bury the dead.” 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither “receive” the disciples nor “hear” their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few “prophecies” in the Bible that has actually come true). “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.” 10:21
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and “able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” 10:28
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” 10:34-36
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up “all that offend” and they “shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it’s better to be “maimed” than to suffer “everlasting fire.” 18:8-9
In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: “So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you.” If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35
“And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors.” 18:34
In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn’t have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and “cast him into the outer darkness” where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 22:12-13
Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It’ll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
God will come when people least expect him and then he’ll “cut them asunder.” And “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 24:50-51
The servant who kept and returned his master’s talent was cast into the “outer darkness” where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 25:30
Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an “everlasting fire.” 25:41
Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46
Mark
Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12
Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13
Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10
If you’re ashamed of Jesus, he’ll be ashamed of you. (And you’ll go straight to hell.) 8:38
Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49
Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don’t will be damned. 16:16
Luke
God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel’s words. 1:20
Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 3:9
John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned “with fire unquenchable.” 3:17
Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37
Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants “thrust down to hell” for not “receiving” his disciples. 10:10-15
Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5
Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves “with many stripes.” 12:46-47
“Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” 13:3, 5
According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13:23-30
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31
Jesus believed the story of Noah’s ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27
Jesus also believes the story about Sodom’s destruction. He says, “even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed … Remember Lot’s wife.” This tells us about Jesus’ knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32
In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn’t sow. The parable ends with the words: “bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me.” 19:22-27
John
Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of foood and water, and then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16
People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36
The “wrath of God” is on all unbelievers. 3:36
Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” 5:14
Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6
Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for “many of his disciples” and “walked no more with him.” 6:53-66
Acts
Peter claims that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23
Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10
Peter has a dream in which God show him “wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls.” The voice (God’s?) says, “Rise, Peter: kill and eat.” 10:10-13
Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God’s, Satan’s?) tells him to “Arise, Peter; slay and eat.” 11:5-6
The “angel of the Lord” killed Herod by having him “eaten of worms” because “he gave not God the glory.” 12:23
David was “a man after [God's] own heart.” 13:22
The author of Acts talks about the “sure mercies of David.” But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34
Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11
Romans
Homosexuals (those “without natural affection”) and their supporters (those “that have pleasure in them”) are “worthy of death.” 1:31-32
The guilty are “justified” and “saved from wrath” by the blood of an innocent victim. 5:9
God punishes everyone for someone else’s sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12
1 Corinthians
If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17
Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for “committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8
If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you’ll will die from snake bites. 10:9
If you murmur, you’ll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10
2 Corinthians
The terror of the Lord 5:11
Galatians (None)
Ephesians
We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11
God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn’t do. 1:7
The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2
Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6
Philippians (None)
Colossians
God bought us with someone else’s blood. 1:14
God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20
1 Thessalonians
God is planning a messy, mass murder in “the wrath to come” and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10
Christians shouldn’t mourn the death of their fellow believers. They’ll be OK and you’ll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (becasue they’re going to hell). 4:13
2 Thessalonians
Jesus will take “vengeance on them that know not God” by burning them forever “in flaming fire.” 1:7-9
Jesus will “consume” the wicked “with the spirit of his mouth.” 2:8
God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12
1 Timothy (None)
2 Timothy (None)
Titus (None)
Philemon (None)
Hebrews
God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22
Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29
The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn’t kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28
God ordered animals to be “stoned, or thrust through with a dart” if they “so much as … touch the mountain.” 12:20
James
If you are merciless to others, God will be merciless to you. (Two wrongs make a right.) 2:13
James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Rom.4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21
1 Peter
We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by “the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.”1:2
“The precious blood of Christ … was foreordained before the foundation of the world.”
God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20
God drowned drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
2 Peter
God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6
“Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes” 2:6
God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7
When Jesus returns, he’ll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10
1 John
Jesus’ blood washes away human sin. 1:7
2 John (None)
3 John (None)
Jude
“The Lord destroyed them that believed not.” 5
Revelation
Jesus “washed us … with his own blood.” 1:5
Everyone on earth will wail because of Jesus. 1:7
Jesus has “the keys of hell and death.” 1:18
Repent — or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python’s “Holy Grail.”) 2:16
“I [Jesus] will kill her children with death.” 2:23
“Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” God created predators, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11
“Thou art worthy … for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood.” 5:9
God gives someone on a white horse a bow and sends him out to conquer people. 6:2
God gave power to someone on a red horse “to take from the earth … that they should kill one another.” 6:4
God tells Death and Hell to kill one quarter of the earth’s population with the sword, starvation, and “with the beasts of the earth.” 6:8
The martyrs just can’t wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he’s done with his killing spree. 6:10-11
God tells his murderous angels to “hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of your God on their foreheads.” This verse is one that Christians like to use to show God’s loving concern for the environment. But the previous verse (7:2) makes it clear that it was their God-given job to “hurt the earth and the sea” just as soon as they finished their forehead marking job. 7:3
144,000 Jews will be going to heaven; everyone else is going to hell. 7:4
Those that survive the great tribulation will get to wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb. 7:14
God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. 8:7-13
“Many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.” 8:11
The angels are instructed not to “hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] … but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads.” God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won’t let them. 9:4-6
God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women’s hair, lion’s teeth, and scorpion’s tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7-10
Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth’s population. 9:15-19
Anyone that messes with God’s two olive trees and two candlesticks (God’s witnesses) will be burned to death by fire that comes out of their mouths. 11:3-5
God’s witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues “as often as they will.” 11:6
After God’s witnesses “have finished their testimony,” they are killed in a war with a beast from a bottomless pit. 11:7
Their dead bodies lie unburied for three and a half days. People will “rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another.” After another three and half days God brings his witnesses back to life and they ascend into heaven. 11:8-12
When the witnesses ascend into heaven, an earthquake kills 7000 men. This was the second woe. “The third woe cometh quickly.” 11:13-14
“The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”
God planned to kill Jesus before he created the world. 13:8
Those who receive the mark of the beast will “drink of the wine of the wrath of God … and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone … and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.” 14:10-11
Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle. 14:14-18
“The great winepress of the wrath of God … was trodden … and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles.” 14:19-20
Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1, 15:7
The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightning, earthquake, and hail. 16:1
“There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast.” 16:2
“The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.” 16:3
“The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.” 16:4
God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6
An angel tells God how righteous he is because he gives saints blood to drink. 16:7
“Power was given unto him [the fourth angel] to scorch men with fire.” 16:8
Those who were being burned to death by God didn’t repent “to give him glory.” 16:9
“The fifth angel poured out his vial … and they gnawed their tongues for pain.” 16:10
Even after being burned alive, those nasty people wouldn’t repent! 16:11
Christians will fight in the war between Jesus and those allied with the beast. 17:14
“They shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” (Are they going to eat her first and then burn her?) 17:16-17
To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and “she will be utterly burned with fire.” 18:8
God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings “who have committed fornication with her” will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9
Jesus makes war. 19:11
Jesus’s clothes are dipped in blood and his secret name (“that no man knew”) is “The Word of God”. (I bet you thought it was Jesus!) 19:13
With eyes aflame, many crowns on his head, clothes dripping with blood, a sword sticking out of his mouth, and a secret name, Jesus leads the faithful in heaven into holy war on earth. 19:14-15
“Come … unto the supper of the great God.” An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon the flesh of dead horses and human bodies, “both free and bond, both small and great.” 19:17-18
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. “And all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” 19:20-21
God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented “day and night for ever and ever.” 20:9-10
Whoever isn’t found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15
All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” 21:8
Faye who says: “Oh, and by the way. What if you ARE wrong? You willing to bet your entire eternity on trying to make people understand how wise you are that you know all the facts that conclude God doesn’t exist. When you die, you will either cease to exist (if you are right) or, you will stand before the God that you don’t believe exists.”
Faye: Would you believe this is known as Pascal’s Wager? Look it up. Read and learn a little. I love your child-like faith!
But if you want to get a bit complicated about it – think of it this way:
If God exists, not believing in him will net you eternal torment, or at least get you obliterated. BUT It is possible to prove that God does not exist.
If God exists, believing in him will gain you eternal life. BUT: According to the Bible, more is required for salvation than mere belief in God. One also needs to believe in God’s son (Mark 16:16; John 3:18,36, 8:21-25, 14:6; Acts 4:10-12; I John 5:12), repent (Luke 13:3,5), be born again (John 3:3), be born of the water and of the Spirit (John 3:5), believe everything in the gospel (Mark 16:16), eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood (John 6:53), be like a child (Mark 10:15), and do good deeds, esp. for needy people (Matt. 25:41-46; Rom. 2:5-10; John 5:28-29; James 2:14-(c)
So atheists are running a grave risk. At the very least, the foundations of their belief situation is far worse than that of Christians. BUT: If God doesn’t exist, neither believing or not believing can’t matter very much.
But Christians are able to self-induce belief in a god. Most people who believe in God devote significant time to prayer and numerous church activities. Such people nearly contribute money, perhaps a tithe (10% of their income). Without that belief, most of them would not do such things. In addition, many such people go through life with inhibitions on both thought and restricted behavior. (Consider, for example, inhibitions regarding sexual practices, marriage & divorce, birth control, abortion, reading material, and association with other people.) In many cases, those inhibitions are quite extreme and may have great effects on one’s life and the lives of others. In some communities, women are oppressed on the basis of theistic belief. Also, some Christians have persecuted and even killed others (as in inquisitions, religious wars, attacks on homosexuals, abortionists, etc.) because of their belief that that is what God wants them to do. Furthermore, some people (e.g., clergymen) devote their entire lives to God. For these various reasons, even if God does not exist, it would indeed matter a great deal whether or not one believes in God, at least for most such believers.
Therefore all an atheist needs to do is change beliefs and become Christians. BUT: To believe in God, one must believe propositions that are, from the standpoint of most atheists, impossible (or at least very hard) to believe. Belief is not directly subject to the will. So, it is impossible (or at least very difficult) for atheists to self-induce theistic belief.
In conclusion: For all of these reasons, Pascals Wager ought to be rejected.
Wow dude. You know your bible better than most Christians. Or maybe your just more honest.
The comments I made earlier were made the very first time I have written anything on a blog. Normally, I don’t bother because I am old enought to know that I am not going to change someones thinking. Only God can do that. I can express my opinion and that’s what I did. Mr. (or Ms) Atheist, you have a right to what you want to believe. As far as most of the scriptures you have quoted, most of them were taken out of context, I would encourage anyone to read them for themselves in a Bible if you choose to know what they actually said and what they meant. Just read what comes before and after the get the whole story. Atheist, I understand now why you have no idea what the love of God is all about. You have absolutely no spiritual discernment. Since you don’t believe in God, that’s understandable. You just like to argue. Spirtual knowledge comes from God. You can (and probably will) have something negative to say about this for my benefit, but should you care to save your time, I don’t plan to get back on here. The worse thing about all of this bantering back and forth (which is a waste of time) is that, bottom line, there is a hell and people that reject Jesus Christ will go to hell. If anyone has been given the opportunity to accept him as Savior and does not, they will go to hell. Do I like it, no. Does Jesus like it, NO! Should anyone care, there is a CD that was put out some years ago about several people that died and went to hell and were brought back. I sure Atheist will remark that it was all staged, but it was called “To Hell and Back. If you are unsure, check it out and make up your own mind. Don’t let me or anyone else convince you of anything. And if you REALLY want to know the truth about whether God exists or not, don’t ask anyone but God. If you are sincere and tell him you want to know the truth about him, he WILL answer you. You will come to know the truth. Then you won’t have to worry about anyones “opinion”. Good night and Goodbye. And for those of you that love Jesus and know him, God Bless you!
Faye,
I have some interesting facts for you. Hope you can use them. There are two spellings for Satan in the hebrew, iyx and iya. The second mentioned is in our biblical scripture. The former name that’s not in scripture means slander, slanderer, accuser. The latter has meanings of an adversary, foe, achenemy, devil, hinderer, evil one, and accuser. The verbal forms means to hate, condemn, speak against, denounce, and these you can find in biblical scripture many times. Not much difference in the two words. Just the latter is used because of it’s strength in meaning. That’s what makes it notable. The latter word shows an active pursuit to no ends for it’s work to do evil.
Creatures like dragon and serpent are a couple of symbols of Satan’s endeavors. Leviathan refers to evils in the modern world.
Now, mankind has an attitude to rate sin, some more than others. God’s system is different, it’s about the intent. God’s system is not specific.
Godbless and take care.
Faye …
A video for you … Christians are all going to Hell.
I won’t comment on Todd Bentley. Thats between GOD and him. I will say this:
It seems as if atheists are some of the meanest, heartless people that ever lived. But yet you say that you are happy? Please.
Um, just one thing. Didn’t John Jackson get divorced? How it is OK for him to be married, have kids, then leave his wife for another woman… and then speak down to Todd?
Pretty confusing if you ask me…
Atheist, I have really enjoyed your responses and challenges. They are thought-provoking and well thought out. You have done your homework well dear friend. It also seems you are quite experienced in debating the Christian faith. I commned you for your study and energy… and passion. I wish Christians would be as energetic, excited and passionate about their own apologetics.
But this I have against you… you berate Christians and your retorts are mean-spirited and personally aimed at causing damage. Besides, your attacks on Christianity are ill-founded as most of your attacks can be applied to all people including those who are believers in some form of deity and even reaches out to agnostics and atheists. You ask for proofs for Christianity yet offer no proof to the contrary. You try to prove Christians wrong but cannot prove yourself right. Christains do not profess to be perfect and sinless.. on the contrary, Christians profess to have a great and daily need for a Savior.
One final thought, the work of Christ in my life is a work done personally in me. I cannot tell you what that means to other Christains but I can tell you what that means to me. I can tell you how it changed my life. I can tell you how it has impacted my life… but I doubt you’d care about any of that that because there can be no argument or debate about the work He did in my life. You see, a man with an encounter is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
God bless you.. and I mean that.
CIRCUS CLOWN…WOW, AND CAN SO HEAR JESUS CALLING SOME ONE THAT.
YOU HAVE NOT READ SOME OF THE STORIES IN THE OLD TESTIMENT, DAVID AND BETHSEBA. AND YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCE GOD FORGIVENESS. LOVE WAS ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT THEN TRUTH IN JESUS EYES.
YOU MODERN DAY PHARISEES
REMEMBER THE SAME JUDGEMENT YOU HAND OUT WILL BE THE SAME THAT COMES BACK ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!
YOU THAT HAS NOT SIN THROW THE FIRST STONE
I thought that I might be an AtheistAtBirth…however,I was created in HIS image and All of Creation screams of GOD!
I really don’t believe this will fly with the American public. If Gov. Perry has significant ties to the NAR, maybe he should take a poll. After all there are world issues to consider here too.
The American public is ignorant and asleep…
Here’s a question. Why has Jesus’ prayer to the father gone unanswered? Why is there NOT unity in the body of christ like he asked for so many years ago? You’ve got an array of opposing christian theologies all over the map out there, probably more diverse than any other time in history and totally antithetical to Jesus’ wishes. You have Christians arguing against Christians and no one seems to be getting anywhere except wealthier and more untouchable. Are they ALL correct and justifiable by default of simply waving the Christian banner? And why doesn’t this god who is obviously being misinterpreted and misrepresented by at least “somebody” out there, intervene and set the record straight so that the tender lambs with their child-like gullibility don’t get led astray for all eternity?
Can you all just ignore such glaring inconsistencies? Will you just settle for some wishy washy explanation of such egregious rhetoric all because you are emotionally attached and invested? From experience, sticking your head in the sand does not make the boogie man of truth go away.
Why all the christian bashing!?
Why all the anti-christian sentiment?
….Relax,We ae not in paradise yet…