9 members of an apocalyptic militia group (domestic terrorists) have been charged after being arrested without incident in the US.
The group, the Hutaree call themselves Christian militia. Members were rounded up in Michigan, Ohio and Utah.
Their website is a hodge podge of bible verses and links to diverse Christian groups and publications.
They have been active (one of 512 groups identified by the SPLC in it’s March 2010 Intelligence report) since 2008 and it is alleged local law enforcement officials were the potential targets of an Hutaree attack which was to occur in April with a final standoff.
The charge of seditious conspiracy carries a statutory maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction carries a statutory maximum penalty of life in prison, Teaching the Use of Explosives Materials carriers a statutory maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and Possessing a Firearm During a Crime of Violence carries a mandatory minimum penalty of at least 5 years in prison.
An indictment is only a charge and is not evidence of guilt. A defendant is entitled to a fair trial in which it will be the government’s burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
The case was investigated by special agents of the FBI and the Michigan State Police.
There is background at Talk2Action on ‘Christian’ militia groups and what some of the beliefs driving these cells.
One of the group has had mental health problems, some are asking for public defenders due to financial hardship.
Law enforcement says caches of weapons were seized in the arrests.
Therese, regarding the statements that are on themiraclechannel.ca site, they were written at a time when we were serious believers. We will not rewrite history for you or anyone. It is part of who we were and part of the journey to where we are today. Our lives are an open book for anyone to read and if people choose to read them, like they do their bibles, by pulling out bits and pieces they find convenient in their motive to detract from what we are saying, there’s nothing we can do about that. We are who we are.
Tim #51 – Thanks Tim for clarifying that – nobody’s asking you to rewrite history I’m sure, but it seems less than honest to keep your “sub-title” up there the way it is, since it’s no longer your present reality, (whether you intend it or not, it’s misleading) and I would think some kind of easily seen disclaimer or explanation might be in order to avoid confusion on the part of readers, so they know where you’re coming from when they read the articles. As someone who has read some of your web articles as well as your comments here, I found it confusing…and then began to be suspicious it might be deliberate. It’s likely I’m not the only one who might see it that way, and I doubt that’s the message you want to project..
Marina #48 – I’m sorry you found my responses disappointing and that you don’t even believe me after all that! Now I’m disappointed and shaking my head in disbelief! But I’m curious as to where you were you going with your line of questioning since you didn’t say, and hoping you might share a little about some of your own past experiences..? When you have time (I’m on the fly myself and might not be able to respond until the a.m.)
Therese, please understand, we will not be changing anything on the miracle channel review website, even though our belief system has undergone a major overhaul. It’s what we believed at the time and the articles and comments were written in that light. We still understand the gospel of the bible and we are still fully capable of analyzing the programming of TMC in light of that. Whether we believe the gospel or not is irrelevant.
Just because we have changed our beliefs, it does not mean we have changed our knowledge or moral convictions.
Hope that makes sense. As well, I hope you can appreciate that we aren’t out there trying to deceive, we are out there trying to uncover and expose the deception. This can only be done from a completely honest and open position, which again, is the position we take.
Well then Tim, what can I say – unfortunately I guess I will continue to be suspicious, perhaps even more certain, and no longer give you the benefit of the doubt.
…and no it doesn’t make sense at all. The only thing that makes sense is that you want your website to look like a flower, when really it’s a venus flytrap waiting for unsuspecting christians to fly by..
Sorry Therese, but it looks like you’ve completely missed the boat and obviously there’s nothing I can do about it…
@Sean
You said: “There are mountains of evidence supporting His existence starting with the books in the new testiment and many, many other documents.”
Fair enough – give me ONE (1) example of your “many, many, other documents” and lets see how it stands up to a factual, historical test proving the existence of the Jesus described in the Bible.
Scholars all over the world anxiously await your wisdom.
Cheers
H
Marina,
It looks like I’m one of the “lazy” faithful. 31 years and my faith has never failed me. I’ve got the joy, joy, joy, peace, contentment. Just like the Bible said.
Your track record? Your previous beliefs were false (according to you since you know longer hold to them). Key phrase is your husband’s claim that he found his faith. Your current beliefs are based on limited knowledge and a lot of faith just like the rest of us.
Therese, help me out here.
How is The Miracle Channel Review a venus fly trap?
Do you think only Christians can examine something in the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Facts are facts.
Explain to me what has about The Miracle Channel Review because Tim and Marina say they no longer believe…
I think it’s a good thing to be suspicious btw, checking information is a good thing.
Jeff Sharlet, Dan Gilgoff – many excellent religion writers lay no claim to the faiths they cover.
Are you saying:
a) Christians don’t lie
b)Non-Christians do
Help me understand where you are coming from.
@Sean #21
“There are mountains of evidence supporting His existence starting with the books in the new testiment and many, many other documents.”
Sean .. there are mountains of books written by those who have followed the errors of others who have followed other errors.
Aside from the Bible, what other single piece of evidence do you have to bring to this discussion. Pretend you are at a trial in the Supreme Court, and based upon the rules of evidence, what “evidence” can you present here, to convince the judge?
@Rodrick #34
Is there a point you were trying to make? Pretty odd for an atheist like me to be labeled “a hyper-preterist”, but it has a rather nice ring. Thank-you for the compliment!
You have just agreed that there are mountains of evidence. You just don’t like it.
I really don’t care what you choose to believe. However, you seem driven to prove that my faith is false.
On trial? Burden of proof is on you my friend.
Every time one of the “errors” you’ve brought up has been put in it’s proper context and been explained, you’ve changed the subject and gone off on a different tangent.
Sean, I think Howie stated there are mountains of “false” evidence.
Why would the burden of proof be on Howie to prove the evidence is false? You are the one saying it’s real. If you want proof of the falseness, just google it or follow some of the links that were provided to you…
Must be that lazy streak again…
One other question Sean, which I might also direct to Therese… How do you deal with 2 Timothy 2:15 which says, “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”?
That’s the verse that got me to where I am today… I studied the mountains of evidence and also the arguments against that evidence. Would you not call that proper study? Would that not be the proper way to rightly divide the word of truth? My greatest desire was to be “approved”. How shattered do you think I was when I found out that my honest pursuit for truth took me away from the faith, not deeper into it. Do you think it was easy for me to walk away? To give up 25 plus years of devoted pursuit? All the friends, family, you name it? Would I do it again if I had to? You bet, but I can assure you, I wouldn’t be stupid enough to go another three decades without questioning.
“Laziness” or “rest” are no valid excuses for not studying. I could only imagine what a professor would do if you handed in an assignment that only looked at one side of a matter critically and ignored all contrary evidence tht was readily available to you. I think you would fail that course, and Sean, you of all people should know that.
Bene #59, I’m saying their website is misleading and dishonest; it gives the distinct impression that they are believers when they aren’t. Their problem is not just with the Miracle channel, it’s with Christianity as a whole and it follows their intention is not just to warn people about the M.C. but to “save” them from the Christian faith. That’s obvious by their comments here. Of course, if they leave the website as it is, they will draw in more Christian readers. It doesn’t make sense otherwise – to leave it unchanged as some kind of souvenir of their past which they now abhor?? Uh-huh. I don’t buy that. if you change your views about something, you begin to argue from that viewpoint, and they are arguing from that viewpoint, only most of their readers won’t know it.
It’s hypocritical to say they are examining something “in the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ” when they don’t even believe Jesus Christ existed historically, nor believe in the gospel. How can they examine something in light of the gospel when they are not in possession of that light?
As it is, it’s a ‘trap’ for unsuspecting believers, who might otherwise choose to give it a pass, if they were free to choose honestly with all the cards on the table. It’s also dangerous for young, new believers or those not mature in their faith.
Hope that makes my point more clear.. I’m calling for some simple, upfront honesty. Wouldn’t take five minutes for them to change their sub-heading and add a short little disclaimer, but it seems they don’t want to cue in readers to their present position.
Praise the Lord my Saviour, there is a God who rescues his people who have been taken prisoner by an enemy, like Abraham’s nephew Lot and David’s family!
“His soul draws near to the pit, and his life to the messengers of death. Yet if there is an angel on his side as a mediator, one out of a thousand, to tell a man what is right for him, to be gracious to him and say, ‘Spare him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for him’ – then his flesh is renewed like a child’s; it is restored as in the days of his youth. He prays to God and finds favour with him, he sees God’s face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state. Then he comes to men and says, ‘I sinned, and perverted what was right, but I did not get what I deserved. He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, and I will live to enjoy the light.’ God does all these things to a man – twice, even three times – to turn back his soul from the pit, that the light of life may shine on him.” Job 33:22-30
His love is everlasting and He does not let go of us even when we let go of Him. And now I think I will just shut MY trap!
When we seek we have to be careful not to destroy or stop anothers ability to do the same. Keep an open mind, an open heart and never assume you ‘know it all until you actually do!; that way ones journey doesn’t encroach on anothers but gifts it and enhances it and visa versa.
Is there a Jesus
Todd says so he’s trying to be him
The ‘profits’ say so they need him
Bob Jones says so ‘he’s seen him’ and GOD
Do you believe!
No
Lord I am fed up with ………………………….
NOW PROOVE IT.
Personally I don’t believe anything until I have seen it with my own eyes and yet I believe, if I hadn’t I would not have got this far.
Their Jesus is not the one I know whos great love is to overcome all of mans. Todds is tacky and wacky, the profits is a means to an end, and as for bob well ‘help if thats all thats in store’!
Many have demeaned because he would not stoop to their level and yet they would not allow him to gift them his.
Tim, Marina, Howie, I’m sorry for all my cold hard words, it’s not what you needed to hear and I’ve taken too much upon myself. Please forgive me! As Solomon says, it’s all just vanity. I’ve never met anyone in your situation before and believe it or not you’ve been instrumental in my Christian journey – God knows the way that we take and He lets us take it because we need to find out for ourselves where it leads – how wonderful is His grace that bears so patiently with His children. I believe with all my heart this morning that you will find what your heart is searching for, and that you will emerge all the stronger and better for having searched. I pray the Lord to direct your steps, give you the light of life, give you wisdom, understanding and peace!
(please forget what i said about your website, it’s all dross, and I think I understand now)
@Sean #62
Ummmmm Sean … I wasn’t agreeing, I was quoting you.
Got nothing eh?
Cheers
H
@Therese #67
Therese, you aren’t capable of cold words. Lukewarm maybe, but not cold.
Therese, there’s no need to apologize unless you feel it necessary. Trust me, we have heard much colder words…
I’m glad to hear the our dialogue and endeavors have been instrumental for you. It’s not our intent to convert anybody to anything. All we want to do is challenge people to think critically and with reason, to be assured of what they really believe deep down and why they believe that. When we are stuck inside the box, we are limited, but the liberty that comes from thinking outside it is great.
We are where we are because of what we’ve done and what we’ve discovered in our own pursuit. Some day, you may look back at all this and say, “you know, there was really something to what they were saying”, but on the other hand, it may be us saying the same thing.
Our journey hasn’t stopped and trust me, I am not fully satisfied with where I am today either. There are still far too many unanswered questions. What I can say with all confidence is that I do know what I believe and how I arrived at those beliefs. I am satisfied and content with the answers I have found so far and the liberty and peace that has come from them.
Therese:
Thanks for taking time to clarify your position, appreciated.
I love every one of you here.. wonderful how something can change in a twinkling of an eye like that – how He makes the blind to see all of a sudden!
Bene, I’m glad for this opportunity to tell you I owe you a world of thanks for tolerating our off-topic, free-flow of conversation at times – it has been very fruitful for me more than once in unexpected ways – and just for providing a place to hear and be heard – the Lord bless your heart and life!
@ Sean (Related to my question in #57)
Sean.
Lets set aside the innuendo, hyperbole, bravado and sarcasm, and focus on a solitary especially significant problem I posed to you by #57. A question you cannot answer, which is related to statements you made. The burden of proof remains with you.
Will you please answer this matter?
You have had abundant time to investigate the issue by now, and as an intelligent and meticulous seeker of the truth, this should be an insignificant question – easy to answer. Please answer it honestly, and appropriately.
(This is the question for your convenience):
“give me ONE (1) example of your “many, many, other documents†and lets see how it stands up to a factual, historical test proving the existence of the Jesus described in the Bible.”
Please notice these were your words, (Many, many documents) and therefore it is up to you to provide evidence (when asked) as to exactly which documents you are referring to. If you fail to do so, I will have to conclude these words were dishonest fabrications, and no such documents exist except in your imagination.
I have made the statement there are no such documents, and since you have a mountain to chose from, please select one from the huge pile and present it here.
You might wish to consider the following before answering:
The character Jesus is believed by Christians to have been an actual historical figure.
Non-religious references to him are tragically late consisting of little more than explanations of what the religion already believes.
The claims of Jesus cannot be verified. The formal details of the Jesus story have been shown by many scholars to be “midrash†, a re-telling of stories from the Hebrew scriptures meant to appeal to a fresh new audience.
The earliest writings from the Christian religious movement portrayed Jesus as a mediator, not an earthly ruler, though the term christ was still applied. The gnostic and synoptic gospels were not written by his disciples but by the early Roman Church, in some cases a century after his death.
It was only when Constantine I, ascended to the throne of the Roman Empire in the early 4th century CE, that the movement gained popularity (Purely political Sean).
Constantine decreed an assembly of the leaders of the Christian movement in 325 CE. This council discussed the relationship between Jesus to that of the Hebrew god Yahweh. Since the early days of the religion, Yahweh was often refereed to as “the father†while Jesus was refereed to as “the sonâ€. At the council, they determined that the two were of the “same substance†(made of the same god stuff? of a similar nature?), based upon their interpretation of the writings of the earlier Christians (assuming, of course, that all ideas expressed in those writings were divinely inspired and without error and, therefore, in agreement with each other, even if they appeared to not agree. Any apparent disagreement must be able to be worked out philosophically) .
By the time of the second Ecumenical Council (381), the Holy Spirit (an abstract Jewish concept often given credit for inspiring holy writings and often artistically depicted as a dove) was added to the happy family and the Jesus/Yahweh duality was transformed into a “trinityâ€.
You see Sean – your Bible was largely a political document, fabricated at a time when control of the empire was necessary. Many familiar superstitions and beliefs were incorporated into the synoptic and gnostic gospels so the general population would more readily accept the new “religion”. If you cared to “study to show yourself approved”, you might not make such unverified claims.
What you (Sean) fail to understand about history, is the turmoil and competition from competing religions at the time. You have much to learn. Read on …
Oddly enough, Christianity is a very interesting example of “survival of the fittest”. It is brilliant in it’s conception – needs no monitoring whatsoever, and perpetuates itself from generation to generation due to its inherent vagueness.
Even questioning it’s veracity leads to an extremely emotional defense among adherents, although they have nothing to support their beliefs except “faith”. Faith is nothing more than an excuse for having no facts.
Sean, I have been where you have been. Taught it for 3 decades, believed it hook, line and sinker. Preached the word, saw converts, did a lot of deliverance, prayed for the sick, and gave my money as any good little Christian should.
It was only when I got off my couch, studied the history and geography and sciences behind my beliefs that I discovered the huge cover-up.
Just like Therese said (out of context) “wonderful how something can change in a twinkling of an eye like that – how He makes the blind to see all of a sudden!”
Jesus was a man of justice, mercy, and faith. You see, Jesus challanged society’s norms. He came as one who serves. So, his followers are not seeking great recognition. The Bible bears many a witness.
You can find Jesus in prayer, faith, love, hope and the list goes on. So, what kind of greatness does one seek? Maybe not the kind Jesus offered?
Interesting how the greatest love story has had so many a witness past down through the ages! Oh, not to mention the fullfillment of prophecy. Yes, the Holy Spirit will bear witness.
I’ve seen some true miracles in my day. A friend who tutored me had a gold tooth all the way down to the root. Dentist told him that was something that a dentist could not do. A very good friend of mine was missing three teeth in the back of her mouth. I saw where they are replaced by three gold teeth, just after she was prayed for, at her church I visited. My friend came to her church with me, and she was healed from total loss of hearing in her ear.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and Phariesees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.”
Everything Jesus taught was centered around a relationship with him. We have what we need in The Bible. The Greatest Story ever told, and still being told. Bear this in mind, many a “witness” is in The Bible.
, at her church I visited. A dear friend who went with me that night was healed of loss of hearing.
@Susan #74
http://www.rickross.com/reference/tv_preachers/tv_preachers20.html
Yes Susan, we have seen a few Gold Teeth in our day.
Cheers
Howard
Very good point about the spirit bearing witness, the mind can’t see or witness the things of the spirit, they are spiritually discerned. I know at times when the Spirit reveals something new it leaves my mind behind in the dust and my mind has to run to catch up – the spirit leading, the mind following.
@Susan #74
You said: “Everything Jesus taught was centered around a relationship with him. We have what we need in The Bible. The Greatest Story ever told, and still being told. Bear this in mind, many a “witness†is in The Bible.”
Susan, with all due respect, I totally disagree and here is why.
Yes, jesus did challenge the norms of society. But didn’t Jesus imply that his words didn’t need interpreting? Especially if you have the powers of a god? Bearing that in mind, lets look at a few things revealed to him by the spirit, contained in your Bible, which you say has everything you need.
Therese@#76, this stuff also “leaves my mind behind in the dust and my mind has to run to catch up ”
Here’s what the Bible offers as a sample of everything we need.
“But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.†So, the people of Europe should not have resisted Hitler’s drive for expansion, and the Jews should not have resisted being sent to the gas chambers?
You should not resist someone who breaks into your house, robs you, rapes your wife and children, and then tries to kill you? You should not resist those who would steal your car, or break into your business?
“Turn the other cheek.†Did he think this would impress a bully? Did Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement policy impress Hitler?
Jesus said that if you are fined, then you should pay double. Huh? Exactly who does this benefit? Someone is going to get poor quickly. If Christians actually followed this advice, there would be a lot more “fining of Christians” taking place by unbelievers seeking to take advantage of their stupidity.
Jesus advised that one should “sell everything and give the money to the poor.” I’m certainly glad that Jesus was not my retirement advisory! Jesus’ teachings spring from his conviction that the world was about to end. It didn’t. This is one major reason why so much of what he allegedly said sounds like nonsense. Jesus (IF he ever lived) was apparently the leader of just another doomsday cult. Personally, I’m glad I kept a little for myself. I know of a pastor and his wife who followed this advice and are now living hand to mouth in destitution. Susan & Therese, since you are followers of Jesus, are you following this admonition? Do you plan to give everything away? This is what he SAID TO DO.
Jesus said, “Don’t worry about the poor; they’ll always be with you.†And I would add, especially if people follow his advice.
“If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.†Isn’t this the kind of advice you hope no one takes? If people really believed this nonsense, wouldn’t there be a whole lot more one-eyed, one-armed people in this world? And, if you’re too squeamish to do the job yourself, try telling the surgeon you want your hand removed. What do you think he will do? And, anyway, it’s the brain that controls the eyes and hands. This passage shows that Jesus knew very little about human anatomy; about as much as he knew about personal finance.
“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.†Thinking is not performing the act. This is suspiciously guilt inducing philosophy intended to keep people under bondage.. We have all thought about lying and stealing many, many times; does this make us liars and thieves? It is not humanely possible to control every stray thought. Obviously, it’s what you do with it that counts. People who take this command seriously will be fortunate to avoid insanity as their “good†thoughts and “bad†thoughts chase each other around in their heads. Isn’t telling a man to not look at a woman lustfully a bit like telling him to not think of a cold glass of water when he is thirsty?
“But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.†How many millions of people led miserable, ensnared lives for decades because they married the wrong person, or their spouse became abusive, non-supportive, drug addicted etc., and they believed it was sinful to divorce? Our Canadian laws ignore this piece of “wisdom†for very good reason.
“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink….Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.†So Susan and Therese, don’t worry about holding down a job, or what you will eat or drink? And the farmer who doesn’t “store away in barns†is going to be hungry by the end of November at the latest. Even squirrels, ants and hibernating bears know this is dumb advice!
another wonderful piece of advice from your complete bible:
“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.†We shouldn’t worry about getting an education, or saving some of our income, or otherwise planning for the future of our children? How many Christians believe and practice this? The ones I know who have done this, are all living in poverty. They have become a burden on their families and friends.
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find.†Are not the Christian children who are dying of malnutrition and readily treatable diseases in Africa asking and seeking? Aren’t they and their parents praying devoutly and sincerely? Why are they dying instead of getting and finding? This advice simply does not work.
A real Gem .. Jesus recommends self-castration:
And then we have Matthew 19:12, . “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it†(and the theologian Origen, circa 200CE, reportedly did so). This kind of sick/dangerous nonsense doesn’t even deserve a comment.
I think the spirit got jesus confused here:
Jesus was a terrible philosopher. He sometimes didn’t even take his own advice. He said, “But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.†Then he proceeds to call people fools. “Ye fools and blind.†(Matthew 23:17) “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.†(Psalm 14:1).
Do you people actually read your Bibles?
Do you actually know what it says there?
Would you teach a Sunday school class the benefits of self-castration, giving away everything you own, not caring for their future?
My pastors always told me the scriptures were written in such a way that even intellectually challenged people could understand with ease. Good thing there are pastors and teachers to keep us away from some of these silly teachings and to explain them away with metaphor and hyperbole as someone no doubt will try and do the second I post this.
Some people ‘wear poverty like a badge’ some people wear piety like a badge some people wear ‘Jesus’ like a badge and its those sort of people that put you off or at least they do me.
Poor in heart; Poor in mind; poor in spirit; yes there have always been ‘poor among us’ poor in thought, word and deed, yes that too.
WE ARE ALL POOR
and we shouldn’t be
Howie, I don’t want to fight with anyone any more – you have serious and troubling questions and you deserve better answers than I can give you – but I believe you’ll find the answers one day…I agree with you that no-one should be literally gouging out their eyes or cutting off their hands – He speaks in parables!
@Therese #79
My apologies if this seemed like hostility. I came from a family where a lively dialogue around the dinner table was “friendly chitchat”. This discussion might get a little impassioned, but it certainly doesn’t go beyond that in my psyche.
I value and revere your opinions whether I concur with them or not, and my idioms may display frustration, disbelief, or incredibility, but never is rage contemplated.
If you are here for an candid exchange of ideas, be equipped to champion these ideas, and not avoid altercation.
Tim, Howie,
Regarding the evidence, I said there were mountains of it. You’ve admitted that that’s true. However you have swepted it all away with a simple declaration that (in your opinion) it’s all false. Really, ALL? Have you looked at it ALL? Your simple reliance on such a declaration seems pretty lazy. I really don’t have time to argue this in depth through comments on a blog. Call it lazy if you want, but my life is full of God-given responsibilities and sitting here pounding out comments is low priority.
I know the origins of the Bible as you’ve described. However, nothing that any of you has presented has proven anything.
Yes, in my job I question the sources. Now I am questioning all of you as a source and I’m questioning the sources that you present. I really have not heard any original thoughts from any of you except repetition of atheist propaganda. There is absolutely no information that I’ve seen in your comments that hasn’t been presented before. And you’re calling me lazy. “A mind is a terrible thing to waste”? Indeed. I’ve looked at these arguments probably to a greater depth than any of you (both sides) and now I am where I am. If you look at these things honestly, you will find that there is no proof of anything, just opinions. What you have done is spent more time being swayed by one set of opinions.
Regarding many of your specific points, you seriously need lessons in reading comprehension. Regarding the teaching of cutting off body parts to avoid sinning, Jesus often used hyperbole in his teaching. How about I translate it for you: Jesus was saying to take sin very seriously. That’s it and the rest are metaphors.
Finally, regarding the quest for ultimate truth. I will give you a little more truth that you have not seemed to grasp. The truth that you know and the amount of truth that anyone (everyone) will ever know in this lifetime is limited and it will always be so. The verse in Timothy was never meant to be taken to the extreme that you’ve gone. From the Christian perspective, our purpose in life is expressed in a nutshell by Ephesians 2:10. We take the amount of truth that we know, recognize that it is limited, and carry out the responsibilities (the good works) that God has given us.
When he says don’t resist an evil (person) he means ‘don’t confront unless you know what lays behind their ‘words. actions, and deeds!. I was walking through the mall one day and this person pushed into me and said something confrontational, which normally I would have ignored! this time however I responded and boy what came forth was ‘unleashed’ ‘with eyes flashing’ from somewhere deep. Phew won’t do that again I thought – EVER! Thank you Howie you just brought that back to me with the understanding.
Normally when confronted I usually let ‘the steam run out of the conversation before responding’, Safer that way, that time I guess he showed me why;
i don’t like to call people evil it damns them, but some do seem to come from a ‘DARK PLACE’ of abiding thats for sure.
Howie #80 – Just to clarify, I didn’t take your comments amiss, I was talking about myself, that “I” don’t want to confront anybody any more. If I can learn how to say what I want to say without butting your heads, I’ll try and do that.
Think I’ll say this much about the word of God though, we have become His children and He has become our Father, not some unreasonable tyrant, and though the word upholds and shows us His perfection and holiness without compromise, His grace is there for us wherever we fall short, as long as we are in Christ and sincerely seeking righteousness.
We wouldn’t expect a newborn baby to put on a suit and go off to work at the office the day after he is born, would we? We wouldn’t harangue the poor little one about paying his taxes and obeying the traffic laws while we tuck him behind the wheel of the car either, even though those things are true and written in the laws of the land. Likewise there are things in the word of God that don’t apply to us yet because we are not ready for them until we grow into them. Our watchful and attentive Father knows what we are ready for and when, so we are led by Him not by the letter of the law.
Therese
Trust me, if there was a way that I could have held on to my faith in Jesus in a way that would have been honest to myself, I would have. Leaving the comfort zone of believing that god was in control of this crazy world where so much stuff doesn’t make sense wouldn’t have been my choice. Do you think it is easy after investing your whole life in a belief system and circle of friends and family who believe likewise, to just give it all up? Knowing that you will be either hated or ignored by people who once considered you a close friend and confidante? Do you not think that the path of least resistance was far more desirable and appealing to every natural, instinct of survival and preservation within me? You bet it was! But to thine own self be true became true for me.
As a Christian, I lived as a hypocrite. I would say most do since they do not fully live out their faith according to their manual, the bible. I live in a city with a population of 6000 which is predominantly Christian. To “fit in” and have any kind of social life you must have some degree of faith and belief that god/Jesus exists, BUT! don’t take your belief too seriously. Otherwise you will either be labeled a religious fanatic Jesus freak or a heathen/enemy of the cross. Most fit somewhere in the middle. Initially I fell into the first category, and as it stands now, the second. There is no middle ground for me when it comes to the important issue of “god”. So I have been hated by Christians when I was a Christian and now hated still by Christians now that I am not one.
It sounds to me like you have made your Jesus and your god to be your personal security blanket who asks nothing of you.
Though you may have left the churches, you have not left the system. It still has a grip on you, which prevents you from thinking critically and honestly about what you believe and why you believe it. Though you are not in the churches, the original inventors of the Christ religion are still succeeding in their plan to suppress free thought and subdue opposition as you merrily go on your way and quietly live out your life as a good, god-fearing member of the family. The plan of “Christianity” has always been to quash any uprisings and prevent any revolts. That’s what happens when religion becomes an initiative of the State.
This world is never going to change if people like you sit around and wait on the Lord. Governments love this stuff because people believe they do not have anything to do here but wait. They leave everything in the “Lord’s hands”and and shirk their responsibilities as members of society who should be trying to make the world a better place on so many levels.
Christians may do their little do-good ditty, like giving money and aid to the poor, which is wonderful. Many will stand up and speak against what they and their religion say is legalized immorality, such as abortion and gay marriage (the directives of which, btw, are not found in their bible of truths for Christian living). But they fail the test when it comes to things like challenging the status quo of our country. Things like “who is making the decisions in our nation, the government or corporate America?”. Why are we going to fight a war that is not ours? What about global warming? Was H1N1 really such a threat? What are they putting in our water?
No I am not an alarmist, nor a conspiracy theorist. I simply want people in this country to think seriously about so many things and don’t be complacent or satisfied with what big brother says. Investigate! Find it out for yourselves! Separate illusion from reality. It can be done and if more people got their heads out of their bibles and started thinking for themselves and digging deeper for the answers, perhaps governments, corporations and institutions would begin to change for the better. Perhaps justice and truth would prevail in the land.
Christianity and corporate conglomeration fit like a glove. A true Christian doesn’t pose a threat to the motives and agendas of those who rule the world and the people, because if you read your bible, Christians are not admonished to challenge worldly systems but to obey in complete submission. The follower of Jesus is to obey the government and rulers. So professing Christians who try to impose their own moral convictions on worldly institutions are not really “True Christians” at all. Christian lobbyists, who voice their religious opposition to certain legislation, for example, are being untrue to the god and the gospel of their profession. Christians who try to sway governmental decisions in their favour, are exhibiting lawlessness in the kingdom of god. Why? Jesus only exposed and rallied the religious system and leaders of his day. Because he only scorned their hypocrisy and self serving behaviour which was cloaked in religion. He did not try to change the “world” and worldly systems. So Christians who do this are being lawless in their faith and antithetical to the pattern Jesus set for his followers.
So the powers that be don’t want any of that to happen. They want people to follow their bibles and be “True Christians”. They want people like you Therese, to be caught up in your own personal god, to be content that all things happen for a reason, because God is in control of everything. True Christians like you, are passively waiting for Jesus to come and believe that when he does, everything will be as it should. Truly evil does prevail because good men do nothing.
I’m assuming you were lead out of churches because you got burned. And that’s partially why we did initially. We didn’t get burned until we started challenging the leaders and asking the tough questions. Not to mention their false and extra biblical doctrines they used to lord over the people. No one likes a skeptic. But when we left we only discovered that there were more doctrines and practices of Christians, churches and ministries that could not be substantiated by the bible. Then we began to examine the bible itself more closely and with a more critical eye. And wa-la! We found it was full of holes and no more “holy” than a Harlequin Romance.
Again, the answers you provided are nothing I haven’t heard before. They smack of complacency, lack depth and forgive me if I offend you, but uselessness in the here and now. Not that I am a fan of Carl Marx, but he got it right by saying that religion is the opiate of the masses. It keeps the masses focused on getting their fix rather than fixing the problems. Religion discourages us from re-thinking what we have been taught from small. It’s like putting on blinders that hinder our vision. We can only see and therefore only think one way. I have observed this throughout my walk as a Christian and from reading the comments on this blog.
Passion Marina is a ‘good thing’ How you express it in the action of it is quite another. To be ‘passionate’ about something is to keep seeking and not just stop when you find ‘that the bible ‘leaks’ and that for centuries man/men have used it to obliterate its truth and true meanings in order to justify actions that they know would probably get them hung in the ‘real world’. We all know that its meaning and interpretations can easily be wharped but then if so why! Who would ‘create a book that holds millions captive and why. What holds the captive in the place of captivity for you Marina are just as captive in this place as you where in the former. There is no freedom, there is no Liberty and there is no real hope. Fighting or wars ease the pressure but the ultimate freedom is what we seek and those that want power ‘tell us’, they seek for us’. Its no good trying to change ‘a government’ a political system etc until you go beyond its borders and find out what created it the first place ie ‘man’ and why man has this inherent need to ‘rule’ that leaves so many for dead no matter what’. No someone created this system that we are held in and though he may call himself GOD he most assuredly has not met the real one and when the battle commences for rulership and dominion truth will come with its ‘battlecry and truth you have not heard yet will bring forth a reason to live not die, a reason to hope and not hell and a reason to never ever want to see mutilation or devastation ever again. We like to ‘hate’ to much. WHAT WE NEED IS A LOVE TO WASH AWAY THE HATE ALONG WITH THOSE THAT BRING IT.
HATE SHALL HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION ‘a price has been paid’.
Marina, I think you are absolutely right not to settle for a particular belief system just because everybody else around you is doing it. I understand that you are hurt and angry, and very much regret the spirit in which I wrote a lot of my comments. Totally agree with you that we do need to establish our own path in life and sort things out for ourselves and not just accept a thing because somebody else, or even everybody else, says so. Things need to be tested. As far as my personal life is concerned there is only so much depth and detail I am comfortable with on a blog, so I’ll just have to leave you with whatever impressions you may have. I’ll say I was burned in the churches – I didn’t get my ‘money’s worth’! but never mind, the Lord has been making it up to me in ‘spiritual riches’ the last few years! I pray the Lord will make things up for you too, and that you will land on your feet and find what you are looking for – I’m sure you will.
I know what you mean about governments and keeping a close eye on the powers that be…
For what it’s worth I did not get the H1N1 flu shot!
Faith vs. opinion. One man see’s through the eyes of faith, the other see’s through the eyes of opinion. The confusion is not in God’s word, but in man’s opinion of God’s word.
Yes it’s true, that any Messiah who turned the other cheek was not a military leader. So, this was not the kind of Messiah the world would except. Jesus’ desire was about mercy and justice, and much more. His kingdom is not of this world.
To sell everything and give it to the poor, that’s a tall order. In other words, don’t let your money or possessions keep you from following Jesus. You see, sometimes our reactions can show our true attitude towards money.
For me God’s word is sufficient. I find an appreciation in the inspirations I see in The Bible. I choose faith.
@Sean #81
Two things Sean … I never said “There were mountains of evidence”. Follow the flow of conversation. Read back over the posts. These were YOUR words. Don’t label me with your unfounded statements, when I was quoting you.
Secondly: You have taken the option of not supporting your statements when respectfully challenged to do so. I can understand your hesitation. It is frightening when holy ground turns to mist.
Therese, Susan, Hopesome, even Sean and whoever,
In my attempts to make a long-winded point, you seem to have misconstrued my message.
So just for the record, let me clear the air:
- I am not hurt or bitter about my experience in “the church”. Please stop telling me that I am. As a matter of fact I am kind of grateful for it. The experience got me to a point of greater freedom and contentedness in what I believe and in who I am than ever before. (You know, like someone once said ‘joy joy joy!’. Angry, yes. We should all be angry. Who wouldn’t be angry with what’s going on so freely and recklessly in the name of Jesus?! And I’m pretty sure that my anger will not be subdued as long as the criminals and deviants of this religion go about their business unscathed by the law. C’mon church! Wake up! The world should not be the one having to clean your house and air out your dirty laundry! Shame on you!
- I am not searching for anything. My life is complete. I am on my feet more firmly than ever. If I die tomorrow, I will die content in the knowledge that I did the best with what I had and know in this life.
- Don’t try to reconvert me. It will only happen when hell freezes over, but hell would have to exist first. I am not looking for “god” to show up because I have concluded that he does not exist. Your prayers are an exercise in futility. Not that I do not have an open mind to the minutest possibility (itsy bitsy teeny weeny) that there is a god, a creator, super-being out there somewhere. Fact is, I spent too many years being close-minded IN my beliefs. I have learned to never say never.
- I am not trying to deconvert anyone. I have discovered that if you have not searched out a matter for yourself and just take someones word for it, it will never really become true to you. If someone can convince you of something, then the next guy can come along and convince you of something else. A good teacher will never give you the answer anyway. They will just help to give you direction in finding it, but the work is up to you. Besides, I am having way too much fun on Bene’s blog conversing with all you believers! (Thanks, Bene and sorry at the same time.)
- What most of you reading this blog don’t seem to understand is that I have been where you are. I WAS YOU! I have been on the mountaintops and the valleys in my walk with “him”. I’ve experienced it all and willingly put my Isaac on the alter to die. I have burned my oxen and cart so that I would have nothing to go to and no one to follow but “him” (If you’ve seen the video mentioned earlier you’ll know what I am talking about.) I had been so steeped in my belief system that every bit of information that I came across or every unusual incident I encountered or heard of, was filtered through my belief system. My brain, heart, or whatever, only processed information in a way that supported what I believed. That’s what happens in religion – you have a sort of handicap when it comes to thinking critically, objectively. So, for example, when something happened to us, good or bad, it was always for a reason – god was teaching us something or working somehow in our lives. We perceived everything in our lives through our “Jesus lenses”. When our experience conflicted with our belief system (the bible), rather than going with our gut feeling that something didn’t line up, our resolve was to use the excuse all Christians use, in that we only see in part and that we see through a glass dimly.
- You guys don’t know what it’s like to be where I am now. You can only feel sorry for me, that I have wandered away from the fold aimlessly. You don’t know what it’s like coming to this place all on your own, after hard wrestling and heart wrenching work. After trying to work out YOUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling, chopping your way into the jungle where few dare go. I can tell you it is most satisfying to discover a new thing on your own, alone. Tim and I arrived at the same place with the same conclusion each on our own, without discussing what either was thinking and discovering. I didn’t dare say too much for fear that my husband would be repulsed by what I was discovering, and unbeknownst to me, later on found out we were both on the same page the whole time. Go figure.
- How was I able to get out of it’s grip when it’s all you eat, think, sleep and breath? Actually I have the bible to thank for that. The fact that god failed to hold up his end of the deal drove that final stake in but good. As I meticulously combed through the bible and history, slowly the filters began to be removed from my life-long indoctrinated brain. Slowly day by day, the illusion faded and the light of truth and reality came flooding in. Yes it was sad at first to let go of that thing that once encompassed your whole being, but after a time there was more freedom and a sense of finally “getting it” more than all my years of Christian ramblings.
Here’s the point – Don’t knock it ’till you’ve tried it. I’ve tried Christianity for most of my life. Need I say more?
Marina, I believe you that it’s quite possible your faith had been based on indoctrination, (although not everybody’s is), and in that case it’s good and necessary to be free of it, and you have every right to be angry. My testimony is a bit different, or maybe not so different in the long run – I had rejected the Catholicism I grew up with and I wasn’t looking for or living for Jesus but He came looking for me, and I’m relieved that i don’t have to carry all the world’s problems on my shoulders any more – the last little while He has been opening my eyes to see even more how much He is ruling and reigning. He wants us free, He is trying to give us our freedom, so much so that it’s a bit scary at times – except He has gone on before us – He knows the end from the beginning and has long ago provided for every move that man makes in his idea of ‘freedom’. He’s proven that in my life when I have stepped out of His will as a believer, He proved to me that He was there all the while and had already worked it out for good. His rod and His staff, they comfort me. I think I understand where you’re coming from, at least as far as it’s possible to understand another’s journey, and my thoughts towards you are only good ones.