9 members of an apocalyptic militia group (domestic terrorists) have been charged after being arrested without incident in the US.
The group, the Hutaree call themselves Christian militia. Members were rounded up in Michigan, Ohio and Utah.
Their website is a hodge podge of bible verses and links to diverse Christian groups and publications.
They have been active (one of 512 groups identified by the SPLC in it’s March 2010 Intelligence report) since 2008 and it is alleged local law enforcement officials were the potential targets of an Hutaree attack which was to occur in April with a final standoff.
The charge of seditious conspiracy carries a statutory maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction carries a statutory maximum penalty of life in prison, Teaching the Use of Explosives Materials carriers a statutory maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and Possessing a Firearm During a Crime of Violence carries a mandatory minimum penalty of at least 5 years in prison.
An indictment is only a charge and is not evidence of guilt. A defendant is entitled to a fair trial in which it will be the government’s burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
The case was investigated by special agents of the FBI and the Michigan State Police.
There is background at Talk2Action on ‘Christian’ militia groups and what some of the beliefs driving these cells.
One of the group has had mental health problems, some are asking for public defenders due to financial hardship.
Law enforcement says caches of weapons were seized in the arrests.
Several million reasonably intelligent folks of faith in the USA agree with most of their theology. Who is more delusional – those who take up guns to overthrow the “evil” government, or those who sit quietly in the background nodding with some degree of acceptance in what these morons tried to do?
Matthew 16:28
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Looks like He would be back in THEIR lifetime – not yours.
Just a thought …
Have a great Easter
Howard
That bunch was about two hour south of where I live. The mildly comforting thought is that it seems to be a very small group revolving around one family, not unlike the Fred Phelps clan (whose “church” is basically Phelps’ family) with their dislike of Uncle Sam ratcheted to 11. However, it would only take a dozen armed-to-the-teeth folks to mow down an entire courthouse or other government building.
I don’t see the logic behind the group, but fringe groups often aren’t all that logical.
I find terrorists of any stripe don’t need logical reasons for what they do – all they need is an excuse to express what is already in them naturally..
Howard (Howie51), re: comment #1, if you look at Matt. 16:28 in light of Luke 17:20-21 you may find you arrive at a more plausible interpretation..
“Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
@Therese #3
What conclusion would that be? That Jesus is a false prophet?
Luke 17:20-21 addresses the kingdom coming – not the King coming.
Howie…the Son of Man is coming in His kingdom…
@Therese
The only thing that is coming is an appeal to common sense and reason. Jesus already predicted his coming 2,000 years ago. Sorry you missed it (as I did). The militia and other militant organizations thrive on the ability of the Bible to say just about anything.
Were you aware that the KKK was founded as a Christian organization and still sees itself in terms of defending true Christianity?
The Klan ceremonies all include an American flag, a cross, and a Bible opened to Romans 12, exhorting Christians to “godly conduct, godly nature.” Also common is a sword representing the war against all enemies of the Christian life and the American “Christian Nation.”
How does this compare to the militia described in this blog? Do you suppose they (as you have done) defend their position by twisting the text of scriptures, or do they read them literally? Or both? and who is right in the interpretation of scripture you and I have debated – you or I ? and who is to decide?
Either an interpretation can be objectively defended by appeal to text and context, or it cannot.
How would you interpret Jesus instructions to His disciples predicting future hostility they would face and encouraged them to “sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38;”
on one hand, then telling them to turn their cheeks on the other.
Is this the “Prince of confusion and contradiction” you worship?
If someone commits murder by stabbing with a pair of scissors, which were made for an entirely different purpose, who is responsible, the murderer or the scissors?
When I come across an apparent contradiction that I lack insight into, I humbly ask the Author of the Book, and He so often graciously resolves the problem for me – but strangely enough always in a way that discourages lawlessness – I’ve never yet been led by the Lord to commit a crime. On the contrary His standard is even higher than that of not comitting sins, but that we should come to a place where we don’t even the sin in our hearts any more. I believe there is a simple answer to your conundrum with the outer garments and the sword….but anyone can count the cost and ask the Lord themselves if they have a desire to follow and know Him, and gain understanding of His word. Sometimes – often – things were worded by the Lord in such a way as to test hearts, as the word of God itself indicates. He isn’t after robots who follow commands, He is wanting to give birth to spiritual children whose hearts are right towards Him and His ways. I’d say the KKK flunked the test, wouldn’t you? What they need is not a change of book, but a change of heart.
Luke 8:10 “He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ” ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’”
Worship and Warfare
man style!
The Apostle John did indeed see Jesus coming in his kingdom before he died as part of the visions that he documented in the book of Revelations. Probably others may have had similar visions indicating that Jesus may not have been a false prophet after all. He seemed to do very well in predicting the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and even better in predicting the rebirth of the nation of Israel about 1900 years later. Therefore, some of us will probably enjoy a Happy Easter after all.
Regarding the advice to sell a coat to purchase a sword advice:
Jesus often preached with hyperbole. This may have been one of those cases as one of the disciples noted that they already possessed two swords and Jesus declared that this was enough. The main point of Jesus’ statement here was that (to quote Dylan), the times were “a changin’”. It was a situation where he knew he was going to die, and his disciples were entering a time of severe stress and uncertainty. In any case, I’m sure Jesus’ intention for the swords was no more than for deterrence and/or defense if needed. Jesus’ motives were verified by his rebuke on the disciple who cut off the servant’s ear at the time of his arrest a while later.
Having stated these things, I don’t approve of terrorists plotting to assassinate law enforcement officials in the name of Christianity, and I will re-iterate that the racist practices of the KKK are definitely anti-biblical. The Bible is very clear that all people are equal in God’s eyes. These are clear cases of people attempting to legitimize their evil practices with perverted interpretations of the scriptures.
@Sean
“The Bible is very clear that all people are equal in God’s eyes”
You can find plenty of scripture to support the concept. Thomas Jefferson used similar words to yours and he is often confused as the author by those who believe it to be in the Bible.
But ….
You can also find a great deal of evidence to support slavery, which is far from the concept.
“Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5)
“Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don’t work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.” (Colossians 3:22)
“Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back .” (Titus 2:9)
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. ” (1 Peter 2:18)
Slaves should obey their masters?. Not exactly an equality.
Slavery was one of the most offensive institutions to ever befall humanity, and these scriptures were used during the slave trade in the USA to support the practice. The scriptures totally support slavery, and, as you can see from the above verses, demanded that slaves obey their masters…whether or not they were good or cruel masters. Not ALL men were created equal according to the bible. Another one of those odd contradictions.
Doesn’t square with:
Acts 17:26 (King James Version)
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
There are those who argue that these words were meant to suggest that slaves who were already commissioned before Jesus arrived were the focus of this text, but we understand how long the practice continued afterward.
Another odd little point about Paul’s words: “Made of one blood” is awfully supportive of the recent finds by genetic scientists that mankind evolved from a common ancestor in Africa.
Depends on how you read that Bible Sean, and while I do agree these (Militia) evil practices are a result of their perverted interpretations of the Bible, it certainly is a confusing document. I suppose that explains the several hundred variations of Christianity in America and the some 3,500 worldwide. Seems Christians can’t agree on anything.
Just keep ‘explaining away” the nasty parts and cherry pick the nice parts.
I also find it interesting you quote from Bob Dylan because in 2003, according to Jim Sullivan and the editors of the Christian Science Monitor, Bob Dylan called himself “a 62-year-old Jewish atheist.â€
Well it’s nice that we agree on some things.
I’m aware of the basics of Dylan’s beliefs. Just because I’ve quoted him doesn’t mean that I agree with all of his beliefs. However, he has performed some memorable songs and some of them have catchy phrases that are useful to quote. I do the same thing with John Lennon and Einstein. How about Shakespeare?
Regarding slavery: The particular verses that you’ve quoted refer to were written for the people who happened to be in that position. Paul was not trying to promote the practice of slavery, but to promote an attitude of servanthood that would please God. This was the same attitude that Jesus was promoting when he washed the disciples feet. The use of these verses to support the type of slavery as practiced in North America until 150 years ago was another perverted interpretation of the scriptures. A better point that you could make is noting that in the old testament Mosaic law, slavery was a part of the code. This is something that I’m not thrilled about, but it I remember correctly, masters were supposed to be merciful.
Regarding interpretations: People with an axe to grind can find justifications for their causes in just about anything. For example, I could take snippets of your comments out of context and claim that the KKK is good based on these out-of-context quotes.
A few more Dylan quotes:
———————————–
“Man gave names to all the animals …. in the beginning …. in the beginning. Man gave names to tall the animals …. in the beginning … long time ago.”
“You’re gonna have to serve someone. It may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you’re gonna have to serve someone.”
—————————————–
From his “found God” phase about 30 years ago, although I’m guessing that he’s probably abandoned these sentiments.
@Sean
“Regarding interpretations: People with an axe to grind can find justifications for their causes in just about anything. For example, I could take snippets of your comments out of context and claim that the KKK is good based on these out-of-context quotes.”
Quite true Sean & my point exactly about the Bible and the militia.
Re: Dylan – Just found your sources interesting – nothing less, nothing more – I didn’t criticize your usage, merely said it was interesting. Usually the thumpers in here are scared stiff to quote atheists.
Did you not read part of my post which said “There are those who argue that these words were meant to suggest that slaves who were already commissioned before Jesus arrived were the focus of this text,” ? Problem with your attempt to shrug aside this text is lack of evidence that Jesus discouraged the practice of slavery. Why is that? If he disagreed with it – why did he not condemn it? Pretty weak argument Sean. But then, there isn’t any evidence that the Jesus of the Bible ever lived anyway, so it’s a moot point.
Man and his societies commit too many sins for Jesus to make a list and condemn every single one. What He did say was to do to others as you would have others do unto you , to love God and love your neighbour as yourself, and to love your enemies – that would cover a lot of territory including forced labour.
He did not come to meddle in and change the culture or overthrow governments and rewrite their laws – which is exactly the complaint of those who disagree with the ‘religious right’. He did not come to give a more thorough list of laws for people to follow – instead, He came to invite individuals to receive a change of heart through believing in Him and following Him – and the outworking of that change of heart would result in many positive changes over time.
Many slaves became so because they owed debt (or their families were in debt) and they sold themselves into slavery in order to repay or work off what they owed – slavery was part of the currency of ancient cultures. When you think about it, the paid employment we have today is a kind of voluntary paid slavery – an essential part of our contemporary economy. Thank God that as people’s hearts and/or thinking were changed through the gospel, involuntary slavery, along with other customs we would consider barbaric or unacceptable today, such as mulitple wives, gradually disappeared from ‘Christian’ cultures for the most part, except for that infamous period involving the exploitation and terrible treatment of African peoples.
There are also scriptures that admonish believing masters how to treat their slaves before God in both the old and new testaments. Jesus and the apostles were certainly not supporting slavery as an institution, merely instructing believers in Godly behaviour in certain specific circumstances they found themselves in – and there is also the passage that advises slaves they were free before God to obtain their freedom if they were able to.
@Therese
You said: “Man and his societies commit too many sins for Jesus to make a list and condemn every single one.”
Where did that scripture come from? Isn’t that a little blasphemous to limit an all powerful God?
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Jeremiah 32:17,27
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee
Not much of a God who can’t keep track of a few sins.
You said: “He did not come to meddle in and change the culture or overthrow governments and rewrite their laws –”
Again, there is ample scriptural evidence to the contrary.
God “made known to us the secret of His will.
And this is in harmony with God’s merciful purpose
for the government of the world when the times
are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished
in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to
find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven
and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.”
Ephesians 1:9, 10 (Weymouth First Edition translation)
You also said:
“He came to invite individuals to receive a change of heart through believing in Him and following Him – and the outworking of that change of heart would result in many positive changes over time.”
That is clearly not what the Bible says about his coming:
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)”
Then you said: “Thank God that as people’s hearts and/or thinking were changed through the gospel, involuntary slavery, along with other customs we would consider barbaric or unacceptable today, such as multiple wives, gradually disappeared from ‘Christian’ cultures for the most part, except for that infamous period involving the exploitation and terrible treatment of African peoples. ”
Have you forgotten about the Inquisition, Irish Republican Army, the Crusades, the witch hunts, molestation of children in residential schools, suicide cults, Rwanda, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina, shooting of abortion providers, tax evasion by televangelists, just to name a few?
When did this “change” actually happen Therese? and when did “multiple wives” actually disappear from America. Perhaps you need to read one of the recent National Geographic magazines to understand how polygamy is alive and well.
Have you neglected to remember the millions of innocent men, women and children who have been butchered throughout history through “Changed thinking”? Christianity shares it’s brutality with the Muslim faith, and you need look no further than your television set to see just how much mens hearts have been changed by this “gentle Jesus”. There are elements in the USA TODAY who are advocating a takeover of the government by violence. What has “changed”?
Clearly Therese something is badly wrong.
Jesus never advocated the abolition of slavery. Maybe the Christian church went against God in doing so? If he DID advocate the abolition of slavery, can you point us to the text in the Bible?
God gives clear & specific rules for slavery and it is implied that slavery is something crafted by God. If God created slavery and never advocated it’s abolishment, then did the Christian church go against God by releasing the black slaves in America? You can’t have it both ways. Why would God set up rules for Slavery, have Jesus support the practice, and then provide absolutely no recourse in the Bible. The slave traders in the USA would have (violently) disagreed with you.
When slavery dominates so does hate. Turn the tables! To be a bond servant means either you are in good hands or bad. Turn the tables. Service or servitude!. A vengeful God likes to be obeyed, be served, to be worshipped. Jesus was saying in the ‘temple’ that day ‘Don’t serve these masters (they are ripping you off). To serve wholeheartedly takes wholehearted and nothing less, love. Jesus knows our love is weak, and conditional as to, for one thing, how we are feeling, acting, or being, on any given day not to mention whether we ourselves had any ! To my mother love had a price! In a conversation one day she said ‘well I brought you up didn’t I! SO FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE I HAD TO BE GREATFUL!!!! yes according to her! We all serve one master or another society structures it that we do! and society is ruled by whom ! Us if we are bullies, little gods, or just down right vengeful! What ‘god’ sits in your heart!. Americas ‘God’ says you must serve. The one I love says ‘allow me’. We can either allow or not that which lifts us from death into life and servitude in the wrong hands is death not life! I won’t serve any master I’ll just serve and Jesus is only the master if we need it. He is not vengeful we are and often times want him to be and when he’s not we pick up a gun and say we are serving in his name for him.
No we just need somewhere to ‘venge’ and ‘purge’ and to justify it.
War gives them a place of both and so can the bible in the wrong hands.
Howie, I didn’t feel I did a good job of expressing my point, I just did the best I could, expressing something that I found difficult to put into words. His kingdom is not of this world, and yet it overcomes the world. However, there is something wrong with your reasoning and your treatment of isolated sentences of my comment in your comment #15 while ignoring my intention as a whole ( I was only making one point, not several)…much the way many people treat the Bible actually – not with an intent to seek out truth, but with a vested interest in twisting things in such a way as to make it convenient for them. Your comment is a very good example of this. Such people will not repent, not change their minds or their ways….their search is not for truth, but for ways to justify themselves and ‘win the argument’ with the Almighty about their sin and about His Kingship. Problem is, they are only deceiving themselves. But He is not deceived – He sees their hearts and knows their condition.
There are those who are so proud and arrogant they mistakenly assume just because they don’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth, that it can’t be done.
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. (Matt. 11:25)
My advice to them is: “Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lord’s anger.”
Therese,
I have something for you to read that may help you to understand where people like Howie are coming from. People make Jesus to be who they want him to be, picking out scriptures but not taking the bible’s message as a whole.
This article points out the whole perspective of the bible – “[T]he primary thrust of the scriptures is that man is separated from God and worthy of punishment”, substantiated by scripture. The man who wrote the article was a former fire and brimstone preacher who, upon deeper examination of scripture, came to realize that the god of the bible and the church are in reality, two parties in a codependent, abuser/abused relationship, where god is essentially saying to his children, “I will always love you, but if you don’t love me, I will not only kill you, but torture you for eternity.”
Here is the article –
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2009/07/god-of-abuse.html
Marina, I understand that people will see the Father and His word, through the veil of the experiences they have had in the flesh, and through their flesh nature – this is why He showed us the Way to remove that veil that prevents us from seeing Him as He is. That article is not a ‘deeper’ way of looking at the scriptures at all, it’s actually very superficial.
I see people who are as angry and bitter at God as they are at their abusers. I understand abuse, I’ve been there, I understand anger and bitterness, I’ve been there too, and I understand the pride and sense of entitlement that is at the root of it, and the desire to exact revenge. But these are ‘places’ that when we come to them, we need to pass through them with God’s help, not dwell there. We need to learn to forgive. Part of my journey through that bitter land has been to discover that God is not the way I thought Him to be at all. When I shook my fist in His face, He responded to me with love and directly answered my complaint. When I expected another round in the furnace of affliction, He responded with gentleness, by His Spirit, and brought healing. When I couldn’t hold onto Him any more, He held onto me. You are all maligning Him maliciously and for me to say He doesn’t deserve it has to be the grossest understatement in the entire universe – and I say again you should not think that just because you didn’t ‘get it’ doesn’t mean others don’t. All you have is a testimony of missing Him, but others have a testimony of seeking and finding, knocking and the door opening.
@ Howie,
Regarding slavery again:
I’ll point out that this is really off-topic from the original post and this discussion was introduced by yourself. With regard to slavery, your entire argument hinges on the facts there are no documents stating that Jesus and His Apostles condemned slavery as practised in the Roman controlled world of the time. You are taking that lack of documentation as a proof that they endorsed the practice. I applaud your strategy in making the argument sound powerful, but when you look at it in reality, it’s pretty weak. I’ll repeat myself again. The verses you quoted were TO THE SLAVES. They were to tell the slaves how to handle the position they were in. They were NOT meant to legitimize the practice. These commands were NOT to the OWNERS. For a more balanced view, note how Paul addressed one of the slave owners in Philemon. “So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me.” Paul considered the slave Onesimus as an equal, a brother.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philemon 1&version=NIV
Jesus commanded those who had ambitions for greatness to become servants or slaves. This is evidence showing that God held the slaves in high regard. Note the link below:
http://tiny.cc/cdkif
Jesus’ primary work was not to change political systems. There were many other evil practices of the Roman empire that do not have documentation of Jesus’ condemnation either. However, the work that Jesus did changed the entire world. The system of slavery as practiced by the USA ended up being abolished because of Abraham Lincoln taking Christianity to its logical conclusion.
Regarding evidence of Jesus’ existance:
Your statement “… there isn’t any evidence that the Jesus of the Bible ever lived anyway” is inaccurate. There are mountains of evidence supporting His existence starting with the books in the new testiment and many, many other documents. If you wanted to re-phrase your statement that there is no slam-dunk mathematical proof that he existed, I would have a harder time arguing that one. If you believe in the Big Bang theory, there is evidence supporting it, but there is no slam-dunk proof of that one either. That is why it is just considered a “theory” and not a physical “law”, like Newton’s laws of motion. However, many people want to believe in that theory despite the fact that it hasn’t been completely proven yet.
Finally, how about I ask you this question:
You’ve stated that you’ve now found happiness and freedom. Why is it that you’re using your freedom to chain yourself to a computer and spend all this time arguing with the “thumpers” and “religious nuts”?
(Sean: I tinyurl’d the longer link you provided. BD:^)
Therese, only a sadistic father would go into deeper hiding when his so-called children are in desperate need of him and are seriously crying out for his touch. If that’s the kind of father you want, then you’ve only moved from one abuse to another, which is typical of someone trying to recover from abuse on their own without seeking professional help.
Marina, Howie and I have all sought the “father” with our deepest sincerity and in our deepest hours and we have all served with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. I can’t speak for Howie, but as for Marina and myself, we have truly lost everything for the sake of the cross, family friends, possessions and at times, our sanity.
If you found him and you like him the way he is, then good on you. I just hope you enjoy serving a god/system that is rooted in deception, fear, control and manipulation and founded on something that to date has proven to be non-existent.
The mind is a powerful thing and it is such a shame when it is wasted.
“proven to be non-existent” is not accurate. Maybe you could say “not absolutely proven to be existent”. There’s a big difference.
Sorry Sean, you’re correct… My mind was on more pertinent things…
“Therese, only a sadistic father would go into deeper hiding when his so-called children are in desperate need of him and are seriously crying out for his touch.”
I don’t understand why you said this, Tim – my experience with the Father has been the exact opposite. Our faith is tested and tried, proven to be real or false. It seems you failed your tests, and it turned out you were seeking the Father on your terms, not His. “But Lord, Lord, didn’t we….?” and instead of a reward you experienced humiliation when you realized you’d been taken to the cleaners by so-called Christians. That seriously hurt your pride, you thought you’d been had by Him, when really you’d only been had by other people who were also missing the gospel. Instead of humbling yourself to find out where you went wrong, you turned your back on Him. And now you are serving a god that doesn’t exist because he isn’t really a god at all, one that in a very short time will pass away like the common grass and like an animal, in spite of his powerful mind, and I hope you will enjoy him while he lasts. That is what I consider a waste.
Therese, I’m glad to see you have written my life story in a way that pleases you and justifies your beliefs… If you only knew!
Feel free to correct me on any particulars, Tim, but the bottom line is that when you discovered that you and your flavour of Christianity had it wrong you threw the baby out with the bathwater. Your situation just makes me sad, and sometimes angry when you disparage the gospel, what is there to ‘please’ me in that? Nearly all believers start out serving God in a way that gratifies their own flesh, the way they wrongly assume He wants, and a way that makes them feel self-righteous, led by their own minds – like Moses did, and I did too – instead of being led by the Spirit – from what I can see most seem to continue that way their whole lives, being led by their minds, false gospels and false christs – the products of human thinking and fallen imagination. You’ve just decided to continue doing it outside a Christian context – you’ve become an enemy of the cross and it seems to please you to try and undermine the faith of others and win converts to your way of thinking.
You weren’t following the gospel, you were following a false gospel with all your might and strength.
@ Howie,
I had a long response to your slavery argument, but it seems to have disappeared into the moderation space since I pasted some links into it.
To summarize, your entire argument is that Jesus and Paul ENDORSED the system of slavery because you couldn’t find evidence of them condemning it. Your argument sounds powerful, but when you remove this foundation card, the entire house of cards falls apart.
I’ll re-iterate what I said above. The verses that you quoted were written by Paul TO THE SLAVES. The purpose of these verses was to inform them of how God wants them to handle the situation/position that they were in.
Did Paul address any of the slave owners? He sure did. Re-read Pilemon. Paul considered the slave Onesimus his equal, a brother and he expected the same consideration from Philemon.
On the Bible’s view on equality: Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This was an astounding statement for the time and culture that Paul lived in.
Jesus said to those who were ambitions, those who wanted to be great, that if they wanted greatness they should become slaves. God held servants and slaves in high regard.
The primary purposes for the ministries of Jesus and Paul were not about political systems, but the personal relationship with God. However, they laid a foundation which was finally carried by Abraham Lincoln to lead his country out of that practice. The ABOLITION of the type of slavery practiced in the USA was taking the christian principles laid down by Jesus and Paul to their logical conclusion.
The assertion that the entire Bible was written with the purpose of abusing and controlling the masses by Constantine’s Roman church doesn’t hold water with the fact that Catholicism discouraged those masses from reading the Bible on their own, even to the point of executing those who were caught owning one in an English translation. This assertion is just another tall tale, a fantasy, a product of someone’s fallen imagination excactly like the false gospels floating around out there in the church at large. I grew up within Catholicsm and I have no recollection of people bringing bibles to church, or of hearing any encouragement to read it being preached from the pulpit. My distinct impression as a youngster and teen was that no-one read the bible except the priests. If it had been written with the deliberate intention of deceiving people, there would have been a wholesale distribution of those bibles as soon as it was feasibly possible, rather than express efforts to suppress it.
@Therese #26
You presume to know that we were following a false gospel during our whole journey as believers. Let’s turn the table for a moment and let me also ask you these questions:
- What gospel/Jesus do you follow?
- How are you being led by the spirit?
- How have you demonstrated your proclamation of Jesus to the world?
- Have you found your purpose in what he called you to do in the kingdom?
- Are you sure that, at the end of all things, you won’t be as one of the goats told to “Depart from Me” or told that you are a “worker of iniquity”? How do you know?
Oh, and one more question. Are You Comfortable?
@Therese #28
So you’re saying that because the Catholic institution kept the bible from being read by the people, that proves that it must be the word of God???? Speaking of holding water…
Did you know that there were numerous versions of the story of Jesus with various outcomes floating around at the time of the Nicaea Council? By the 4th century, the largest two strains of Christianity that remained were the Arians and the Catholics who were in a nasty doctrinal feud that threatened to collapse the Empire.
Do you know who ultimately decided which gospels/version of who Jesus was and what he did, were going to be included in the holy cannon? You got it! The very same group that also decided to withhold it from the people later on! Amazing, isn’t it?
“The Church guarantees the books, but who will guarantee the Church?”
History doesn’t lie. Read it for yourself if you dare.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/arianism.html
http://www.freetruth.50webs.org/Overview2.htm
For Marina #29
No Marina, not presumption, and please don’t read condemnation into my comment – I used to follow a false gospel as well without realizing it. My comment was based on what has been said by you and/or Tim about your past adherence to the kind of gospel preached by the Miracle Channel (ditto in my case), and the reason I said it was not to accuse, but to try and make it clear you have been hurt/abused by a false gospel, not the genuine gospel handed down by the apostles/prophets.
In my life I have been led by the Spirit out of the churches to just be ‘fed’ on the word by the Lord Himself and not man. He has been gracious to give me a lot of understanding of His word that I didn’t have before and delivered me from the false prosperity gospel in order to better understand and embrace the gospel of the Cross. And He has been leading me to wait on Him, not work for Him.
The demonstration of the gospel is primarily through the little things of life – it is personal, another thing the Lord showed me, “The kingdom of heaven does not come with our careful observation , the kingdom of heaven is within you.” Those who are called and gifted to be genuine apostles/ prophets are mainly the ones who perform miracles, signs and wonders (though not exclusively) as it says in the word. I have seen demons come out of people on a few occasions, and have seen some people come into a saving knowlege of our Lord, and once a young girl was healed emotionally and her trust restored after being abused sexually. Someone was filled with the Holy Spirit through the Lord moving and I just happened to be there. Nothing on a grand scale, no trumpets and fanfare, just personal, the Lord working quietly when it pleased Him to do so, through the circumstances and people that are around through everyday living. Myself personally I have received revelation of God through Jesus Christ, revelation of His word, revelation of His grace, much emotional ‘healing’ (which is not really healing, but more like truth in the inward parts combined with His comfort), He has very directly given me guidance and instruction at certain times in my life – once ‘auditory’, once in a dream, a vision, and also in other ways. I have seen Him provide faithfully one day at a time as He promised even when it looked impossible, He delivered my oldest son from addiction to hard drugs and spared his life when he was suicidal, through a warning vision that came through a younger brother of mine. There is probably more that I just don’t remember at the moment, but thank you for the opportunity to recall these things, as it gives me joy and encouragement and glorifies the One who came to destroy the works of the enemy!
My purpose is the same as that of all believers, to die to self, so that it can truly be said in fact and not just in theory, that it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. The church wants us to “do and do”, work, work. But Jesus wants us to rest – “In repentance and rest is your salvation.” The Sabbath rest of ceasing from our own works, so that the Lord can do His. I’m not at the end of that journey yet, but believe I’m at least pointed in the right direction finally. He showed me a kind of ‘picture’ of what it means to wait on Him, to be a servant – Have you ever seen a movie where there is a great King seated on His throne and all around Him are His servants who are just standing there doing nothing? All day long they just stand there – looks like such a waste of time, but really what they are doing is getting to know their King very intimately, just from being there in the throneroom waiting, listening to His every word, watching every expression on His face, while at the same time they are subduing their own self-will which would rather have them outside fighting dragons or something that appears great and glorious that they think would really impress the King, but which would really only bring themselves glory. Once in a while this great King will summon one of His humble servants for some little task or other according to HIS will. That is our purpose really, to wait on the King. Just look in a concordance at all the passages of scripture that talk about waiting on the Lord. It’s His kindgom, not ours; His worry, not ours; His work, not ours; His will, not ours – and believe me He can be trusted to work all things according to it – He does every day, every hour, we just don’t often have eyes to see it. These are some of the lessons He has been teaching me at any rate – why else, but because I need it!
I can’t predict if I will be able to endure to the end or not, there are times when I feel my weakness acutely and it makes me seek the Lord for HIS strength. I know I still lack in many areas and still have long way to go. With the Lord His promises are for today – just ‘one day at a time sweet Jesus’ like the song. I told Him a few years ago, that even if I perish in the end I would serve Him anyway because there is nothing else, there is no other truth, no other God, no other reality.
The cross is not meant to be a comfortable Way of life, but it’s the only Way that leads to life – I have something much better than comfort, I have the Comforter who knows exactly what I need and when, better than I do.
The Lord gave us His word to teach us truth, to show us the way, to show us His holiness, He can’t tell us something that isn’t true – but we can’t keep His word in our own strength and we aren’t meant to – we can’t even understand it by ourselves either. When we are in Christ we can read those words and know how wretchedly we fall short without condemnation! Instead of running away and hiding like Adam and Eve, we can come to Him and repent and receive His holiness in whatever area we have come to realize we need it in. By laying aside the cross, the church has lost revelation of grace, as well as revelation and understanding of His word. They can’t read the word without condemnation, and have fallen back under law. There are only two choices available to man in this whole universe – either fall on the rock now in this life and let Him break you, or throw off the yoke and have a good time now but that rock will fall on you later and completely crush you to your loss. I know a good bargain when I see it. And His reward is with Him – He is our very great reward. Amen, that’s what I experience.
Marina, I answered all your questions, one by one – bit lengthy so it’s awaiting moderation..
Sorry Bene – holiday weekend and your pressing family concerns – take all the time you need!
Howie51 sounds like a hyper-preterist.
HYPER-PRETERISM
“Belief or teaching that Jesus returned once and for all in the year AD70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and that the resurrection of the believers is past and the Judgment is done. This teaching is credited as being popularized by Max King in 1971. Hyperpreterism is also known under the terms ‘full preterism’, ‘covenant eschatologyi’, ‘fulfilled eschatology’.” — http://thekingdomcome.com/glossary/term/8
@ Marina
A naive statement if I ever heard one: “History doesn’t lie.”
Didn’t you get the memo that History was written by the winners? Our understanding of history has as much uncertainty as anything else.
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Next issue. I make quite a few typos myself, but I couldn’t let this one go by:
“holy cannon”? Is that like the holy hand-grenade of Antioch?
Therese, I know this may be a bit to ask, but would you be willing to view a series of videos and after viewing them, let me know where you think we fit in them and if they do indeed present the gospel you speak of?
If you’re willing to undergo this task, the videos can be found here: http://www.themiraclechannel.ca/article.php?story=Lordship
If you do watch them, I recommend taking time in prayer both before and after viewing each one and take a few hours at a minimum to absorb/meditate on what was said before going on to the next one (you need to watch them in order to understand the sequence). You may want to download them instead of watching them online as you’ll probably want to pause and rewind them and this can only be done by saving them on your own system. If you disagree with any of the points made, please feel free to provide scripture references as substantiation.
If you’re not willing to have a look, there’s probably not much point in us continuing our dialogue as to what being a true follower of the real gospel of Christ means or where we’ve come from.
@Marina #31
“So you’re saying that because the Catholic institution kept the bible from being read by the people, that proves that it must be the word of God???? Speaking of holding water… ”
No I’m not saying that at all – I’m saying it discredits your attempt to discredit the bible by asserting that it was a Catholic invention written with the intent to deceive.
Tim, re: comment #36 – There might be a short-cut – why don’t we just look at the gospel that the scriptures speak of, and you can compare your past situation and the Miracle Channel to it?.. (a little prayer on both our parts wouldn’t hurt either – we can’t understand it w/o the Holy Spirit
)
The gospel in a nutshell: “This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength…” (Is. 30:15)
Now let’s look at the whole episode of Moses and the children of Israel being led out of Egypt (world/slavery to flesh/sin) to wander through the wilderness until they died (flesh/carnal nature died), so that the next generation (new creation born of the spirit) could enter the Promised Land (rest from labours/Sabbath rest/living in houses they hadn’t laboured to build, eating the fruit of the land that they hadn’t ploughed and planted). That whole epic adventure was a living parable of the gospel from beginning to end ! Of course Moses was a type of Jesus who leads us out of slave labour to our flesh and the world, into our Promised Land of resting in Him.
“But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you REST from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety.” (Deut. 12:10)
“”Remember the command that Moses the servant of the Lord gave you: ‘The Lord your God is giving you REST and has granted you this land.’” (Josh. 1:13)
“There remains, then, a Sabbath-REST for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also RESTS FROM HIS OWN WORK, just as God did from his.” (Heb. 4:9-10)
But how do we enter this rest? Well, Jesus opened the Way and showed us the Way so that we could follow: Crucify our flesh, our self-will that always wants to work, work, work in order to justify ourselves – become empty yielded vessels that the Holy Spirit can do HIS work through. My most blessed times of “serving” God are those moments when “I” am out of the way and He just does His thing and I can only stand there and witness the Lord at work and be just as awed and joyfully surprised as anyone else. (doesn’t happen a lot, these are rare and precious moments, the rest of the time is just living and waiting on the Lord – I’m hardly a shining example of a perfected Christian life, but at least I’m on the Way and have to lean on the Lord every day for strength to stay there.)
But it’s a battle – like the children of Israel we have battles to fight in order to wrest this rest (Promised Land) from the enemy. This battle has to do with each of our own individual lives, not the enemy ‘out there’, but the enemy ‘in here’. It’s personal, “the Kingdom of Heaven is within you”. Our minds are at enmity with God, our flesh, carnal nature is a usurper sitting on the throne where only Jesus our true King belongs, we believe lies (a lot of them preached by the ‘church’), strongholds need to be broken down, self is proud and wilful, we have been ambushed and driven into snares set by the enemy, etc, etc, whatever that means for each one of us – these are the battles we are to fight first and foremost, the areas we need to overcome in. After that – the rest is up to HIM! (I’m not ‘there’ yet, so can’t speak too much on that, except to say we don’t need to worry about it or strive, because it’s not our responsibility – we don’t need try to figure out our “destiny” – it’s very much in the hands of a capable God who never sleeps nor slumbers, and it’s likely a much more humble scenario than our flesh would like to imagine.)
Television Christianity is nothing but a works and performance “program” – the real gospel couldnt’ survive on television, without a real miracle, it’s the opposite of entertaining our flesh, with all the hype, excitement and exhaltation of personalities. The true gospel is the antithesis of all that. We tend to think we are supposed to work for God, we want to save the world for God, but really He is already working Himself and just wants us to be in a state of rest and yieldedness so we can be caught up and go for the ride in whatever He is doing. Jesus only did what He saw the Father already doing! The Father could always raise up a rock or a donkey, or a child, if He wanted to, or send an angel and do the job sovereignly.
Well, Tim I hope that’s enough for you to go on… it’s a big deep book!
Therese, it’s enough to go on for getting an understanding of where you are currently at and even perhaps a little of how you got there. The point I am trying to make, that you keep missing, is that you don’t have any idea where we have come from, what our beliefs were or how much of a “follower” we were.
The Miracle Channel is but a mere drop in the bucket for us and it wasn’t our church. It was only a stepping stone in our journey for ultimate truth, which according to the Bible, does indeed exist and is freely available to those who ask.
We are still on that quest for ultimate truth but have realized that the boundaries are quite restricted within the confines of any religion and have had no choice but to go outside a belief system to find it.
I can assure you, it was the true gospel we were after and we went deeper than most are willing to go and your attitude towards examining this only reinforces the point that people aren’t even willing to go outside their comfort zone to examine if there’s more truth than they currently possess. They are content with where they are at and even feel they can take that to their grave. Sorry, but I can’t live with not knowing the truth, wholly.
In summary, I earlier stated that you have no idea where we came from and I was hoping to shed some light on that statement by letting you in on a small, yet very serious portion of our lives. To show you the gospel we believed and pursued with all earnestness, but you have no interest in seeing it. So, until you have at least attempted to make an effort towards this, please refrain from arriving at any conclusions about us, our journey, the gospel we followed, what we currently believe and lastly, how we arrived where we are. Suffice to say, that your conclusions could not be any more wrong.
Actually Tim, looking at this from your perspective, Therese has come to the correct conclusion, maybe for the wrong reason.
From your point of view, you have now denied your faith, so you must believe that the gospel that you followed is a false one (isn’t that what Therese said?).
I think the proplem with presumptiousness is on your part. You are claiming to know us enough to think you know what we believe. Your certainty of our beliefs is enough to point the accusation at us that we are following a false gospel. Of course, we do not agree with that.
@Sean
Actually, that memo was sent by me in an earlier post.
And, No, History does not lie. The “winners” who want to perpetuate their winning are the ones who lie. They not only lie, they destroy the evidence to make the truth obscure. Aren’t you glad the early fathers of your religion burnt down the Great Library of Alexandria, suppressed every other “history” of Jesus and killed off every other opposing view in the empire? Why, we might not be having this conversation today!
What’s naive is people thinking that the bible is an historically accurate document. Or Christians thinking that there was no intentional human tampering with the text they base their whole belief system on. Now that’s naive.
Robert J. Miller, Bible Scholar, said it best, “What one believes and what one can demonstrate historically are usually two different things.”(Bible Review, December 1993, Vol. IX, Number 6, p. 9)
The trick to understanding history as accurately as possible is to seek out as many sources as possible. And although historians flourished during the Augustan age in which Jesus was supposedly born, curiously none mention the name of Jesus or any incident of his life. (and forget Josephus’ account – it has been proven and accepted by biblical scholars that it was interpolated at a later date)
Sean, my presumptions are based solely on what has been written here. Neither you or Therese are even willing to go outside of the Bible to examine the depths of what you believe. Therefore, both of you are coming off with a half-baked version of your faith.
I know the book inside out and backwards, I know its origins, I preached from it for years. Neither of you are even willing to examine it in full detail, let alone its origins.
You are the one who is now claiming I lost my faith. On the contrary, I have not lost my faith but have re-assured it. I can confidently say I have no faith in what’s in the book but I do have faith there is an ultimate truth and that it will be revealed some day. I don’t expect you to understand this in the world you’ve created but some day, when you broaden your horizons you just might.
Sorry Tim,
My assumption of you “losing your faith” was based on my interpretation of your comments. Would “changing your beliefs” be more accurate? In such a case then, from your point of view (not necessarily from mine because like you said, I don’t really know you), the gospel you followed must be considered false.
Regarding your presumptions base on our comments:
Since you’ve stated very clearly that we really don’t know the depths of your beliefs from your comments, how can you now claim to know the depths of our (half-baked?) beliefs from ours. Cuts both ways.
Sean, perhaps I don’t know the depths of your beliefs, but I do know the shallowness of them.
I’ll let you in on just a little of my background.
I pastored and counseled for years, I led worship for years, I was invited into positions of leadership by many different churches/denominations, my wife and I were the Canadian directors of one of the most challenging ministry schools and I can probably still preach well enough to bring some of the most hardened to their knees in “repentance”. That’s not what it was about for us. We wanted the fullness of Christ and there was only one way to get that according to the “word”. That way was to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him, even unto death. I walked away from all ministry in order to follow him. I laid it all down for the sake of the cross. I ran the race, only to find out that the “defined” course was flawed, the belief systems built upon countless errors, the power of the Holy Spirit was not as it is written, Jesus existed in various forms in many different beliefs and the whole virgin birth story existed centuries before the one of the Jesus you follow.
Do I believe there is a god? Perhaps, but do I believe he’s the god of the bible and that Jesus is his only begotten son? Not on your life or mine.
I’ve been through the schools, I’ve walked the walk when others refused to go beyond their comfort zone, I tested the so-called truth and proved it to be errant. That’s not the god I want to serve nor is it one I am willing to pursue.
The videos I was asking Therese to view were part of the first session of the ministry school we operated. They are only the tip of the iceberg and if a person can’t go beyond them in their pursuit of Christ, I can confidently say they will never find the supposed “truth” of the gospel, nor have an appreciation of the cost of that pursuit.
Tim, Marina – I have waited and waited and watched and prodded for you to share what it is you believed and lived, but for some reason you don’t seem willing to discuss it much here, so I’m going by the few things you have said. I have taken the time to answer every one of Marina’s pointed questions and received no response. I took the time to explain the gospel I believe in hoping you would compare your past beliefs with that, and again received no response. Is it so hard to say whether you followed a gospel of works or a gospel of rest, or something in between? By mutual unspoken agreement we are here for a conversation or so I thought, but frankly you would have to give me a very good reason why I should invest hours of my time in watching your videos (and the prayer and hours of meditation you ask??) and you haven’t offered any, not even the courtesy of a little synopsis to pique my curiosity.
It all makes me wonder at your motives, I feel something is not quite right, something seems manipulative or secretive somehow, and your website is so blatantly deceptive as to pretend to be Christian when you are non-believers. You talk about praying to a God you don’t believe in , a Holy Spirit you don’t believe in and the title of your website talks about looking at the Miracle Channel in “light of the gospel”, which you also don’t believe in. Why don’t you just come right out and say exactly what it is you used to believe in, what you don’t believe in any longer, and what you do believe in now?
“I don’t know the depths of your beliefs, but I do know the shallowness of them.” You “know” eh?
Ultimate truth? Douglas C. Adams came up with the answer to life, the universe and everything, and it was 42. The problem was we didn’t know what the question was.
Seriously, we are in the flesh and we just don’t have the capability to grasp what the ultimate truth is. Yes, your quest was flawed (your words, not mine).
As far as I know, the only things that we know for sure that are true are the mathematical and scientific laws. Otherwise the information that we come across is reliant on faith in the people who transmit it to us.
From your comment here I can state that I now “know” you well enough that your quest for ultimate truth is doomed to fail. The information that you’ll obtain in your lifetime will not provide anything close to the ultimate truth. You’ll have to rely on your faith to fill in the rest. Talk about being shallow.
Therese, you want to know where we came from and what we believed, I provided an introduction to what we believed in the videos I directed you to. You don’t want to watch them and you think there is an underlying motive/agenda. Frankly, it’s about as honest as I can be. There’s nothing in the videos that is non-scriptural or even persuasive to what we currently believe but it is the ultimate example of the gospel we once believed. That’s the best I can offer without writing a boopk. Sorry if it’s not good enough.
Sean, you said, “Yes, your quest was flawed (your words, not mine).” That is not what I said, the quest was not flawed at all, it was the course. Let’s get it straight here.
As far as what’s true, we do know the origins of the bible, how it was composed, who composed it and the approximate times it was written in. We also know there are hundreds of other religions making similar claims to that of the bible and a lot earlier in time. There’s the saying about throwing out the baby with the bath water, but the reality is, you first have to know if the baby is real.
Faith is an answer used by Christians as an excuse to say they are too lazy to contend for the faith and pursue truth to the ultimate end, regardless of the cost.
Therese
“I have taken the time to answer every one of Marina’s pointed questions and received no response.”
You will have your response as you seem hungry for more. I am working long hours this last week and am responding on the fly. I promise it will come. As far as I could tell, you didn’t answer any of the questions as articulately as I was hoping for. Your answers seem vague and sound like someone who has not really walked the talk.
In the meantime, if you’re so interested in what we believed…..watch a video or two. Perhaps reading some of the articles and comments we have made on themiraclechannel.ca site might help.
“As far as what’s true, we do know the origins of the bible, how it was composed, who composed it and the approximate times it was written in.”
Clever guy. You “know” a lot.
Okay. How? Who? and where’s the proof? The proof is the key. Don’t give me crap about bible scholars saying. The only way to really prove this is to borrow Mr. Peabody’s Wayback machine and get his boy Sherman to show you how to work it. Contrary to popular belief, you won’t find ultimate truth in recorded history because sometimes it does lie and it takes the types of lazy people with faith to believe otherwise.
Last time I checked there’s been quite a bit of uncertainty in the origins of the bible (from a secular perspective).
So Sean since you’re all over the map with your comments, what exactly do you believe then? And what do you base it on? Are you one of the “lazy” faithful?