Christian Week April 23/2010 Police in Finland are investigating allegations that Peter Youngren and his assistant, Taina Kuusiluoma, illegally used a Finnish evangelical organization’s mailing list to smear its board members.
A Finnish evangelical organization is taking Peter Youngren of Canadian Grace TV and World Impact Ministries to court after expelling him from their board. It has come on from reliable and several people who were part of Youngrens ministry that two of his 3 celebration churches are struggling . It was been suggested by more than one source from his assuming senior pastor ship at his Toronto church (his son stepped down in December and is running for City Council) was hostile. It is believed his daughter also stepped away from her fathers ministry.
A Canadian organization which give Youngren his licence to operate as a minister (Open Bible Fellowship) came to BDBO comments after the first post on Peter Youngren which raised questions about the Grace TV purchase his ministerial credentials, licencing and separation from his second wife and strained family relations. As for licencing, this is what the Canadian association had to say:
Peter Youngren was asked to leave the open bible faith fellowship 4 years ago by myself.
His credentials were pulled at that time and he will not be re-instated to the fellowship.
Open Bible Faith Fellowship put up a notice April 2010 on their website shortly commenting at BDBBO which is still up.
It was so good to see many of you at the gathering in Kitchener last week. The reports coming in have all been quite positive and we rejoice in the Lord’s goodness.
Lately, it has come to our attention once again that some people are not clear on OBFF’s relationship with Peter Youngren. I hope this short statement will clarify this for you.
Peter has not been in fellowship with OBFF since November of 2007. We do not support him as an organization in any way, and are not in agreement with his current action to divorce his wife on unbiblical grounds.
Blessings,
Pastor Rick Ciaramitaro and the OBFF Board of Directors
What Canadian organization is Yougren licenced with? Is he legally ordained in Canada? By whom? As well the Ontario Registrar General Office was contacted as to why Mr. Youngren remains on the active list of provincial licenced and credentialed ministers, since questions have surfaced about his affiliations.
More than one reader who knew or knows Youngren has offered that he was ordained with the PAOC. His ordination was removed after his first divorce; questions to Grace TV and WIM about this remain unanswered. ChristianWeek:
In 1993 Finnish pastor David Sterling invited Youngren to join the board of fledgling evangelical organization Evankeliumi Kaikkiin Maihin (EKM). EKM and Youngren’s Canada-based World Impact Ministries subsequently worked together on a number of evangelistic campaigns in various parts of the world. Youngren also joined the board of EKM’s publishing company Helmi-Media.
But somewhere along the line the relationship between Youngren and the EKM board turned sour.
David Sterling, vice-chairman of EKM, says it started when the EKM board learned about Youngren’s marital difficulties and suggested he take a year off from active ministry to straighten things out.
Last August, Sterling says, Youngren wrote the EKM board to say his marriage had “broken down” and he and his wife RoxAnne were “separated.” Sterling says he confirmed this in a telephone conversation with RoxAnne in September.
“We presented him with a proposal that he would take time out for one year to try and rebuild his marriage and his personal life, but he was aggressively against this,” Sterling told ChristianWeek.
Relationships between Youngren and the board continued to deteriorate. In January 2010 Youngren, with Kuusiluoma’s help, allegedly sent a letter to about 6,000 people on EKM’s mailing list. In the letter, a copy of which has been obtained by ChristianWeek, Youngren accuses Sterling and board chair Tom Lipkin of misusing EKM funds, holding secret board meetings and attempting to hijack the organization.
Sterling says EKM’s reputation in Finland has been seriously harmed by the letter. He also says the list of addresses was confidential in accordance with EU privacy laws, and that Youngren had no right to use it.
EKM had shared the list with Youngren for the purpose of sending a postcard from an evangelistic festival in Pakistan. A written agreement signed by both parties stipulated that the list was to be used once and then destroyed.
But when the EKM board asked Youngren to relinquish the list in December 2009, he refused, saying it was his personal property.
ChristianWeek:
Youngren tells a different story. He says the conflict between him and the EKM board started three years ago over the use of finances. In an e-mail Youngren told ChristianWeek the mailing list belongs to him.
“I claim ownership because all names on the list have been added at my personal invitation through public meetings and TV,” Youngren wrote. “All the people on the database have received promises from me that they will receive reports and teaching articles. This is my database, which I have allowed EKM to use.”
Sterling says the addresses were obtained under EKM and that Finnish and EU privacy laws don’t permit an individual to use such a list to ask for funds.
Youngren has now set up an office for World Impact Ministries in Finland.
Readers familiar with Youngren have said many of World Impact Ministry Offices have closed around the world.
For more information see prior posts here at BDBO: Peter Youngren – Running out of Grace and Christian Week looks at the world of Peter Youngren.
Questions are also being asked about the Grace TV CRTC
licence, such lack of religious network challenges, this station has a Category 2 (specialty licence). The station was sold to Youngren for about 12 cents on the dollar. It appears as a 1.2 million dollar 3 year deficit for (S-Vox) Vision TV which recently finalized a sale of assets to ZoomerMedia,. The question was been raised if the sale of this bleeding red ink religious station was conditional of the larger sale of assets to ZoomerMedia. This would be an area BDBO readers could provide accurate information with documentation. The Grace TV is up for renewal August 2012. It was granted in May 2009.
World Impact Ministries is a registered Canadian Charity. (See the comments under BDBO Youngren posts). 
Other current organisations run by Youngren are an
uncredited bible college, Israeli Ministry and Heart of a Child and a for profit organization called Global Grace News, “a teaching resource for ministers and churches all over the world.” It is not know how much money he takes in from his various crusades, sales and enterprises yearly.
He sells extensive lines of his own products. I do not know if all these organizations are registered Canadian Charities, Way of Peace was registered with Charities Directorate Revenue Canada in 2007. It is rumoured Grace TV, 
World Impact Ministries and the unaccredited Celebration bible school are moving to Celebration Church Toronto this fall. Youngren is no longer associated his Hamilton and Niagara Celebration churches; and information coming from Youngren insiders say since Peter Youngrens son stepped away from the Toronto church in December 2009, and Peter Youngren Sr.assumed leadership, attendance is down about 40%.
Christian Week – April 12, 2010 Peter Youngren Making Waves
Christian Week – April 23, 2010 Finnish police investigate Peter Youngren
World Impact Ministries
Celebration Church
Grace TV
PS: I encourage readers who are involved or who have been involved with Youngren and his ministries to email or comment with pertinent information so any errors, rumours and speculation can be corrected. Thanks.
peter deserves this!
As I said, the whole thing will unravel if you just keep pulling the thread. The weak-spot of this wannabe Cracken/Jellyfish hybrid is $$$$$$$. Follow the money, and you will know what I know. Take away his money and he will finally see what we all so clearly see about him. Leave the money, and he will keep on keepin’ on.
I offer a few other tidbits of information that I know to be true…
He doesn’t just have bases in Finland, he has bases in the UK, the U.S, and in Sweeden also… among others. I have e-mails from concerned WIM workers with their I.P addresses to confirm this.
Also, there was a “Word of Life” (the original name of Niagara Celebration Church – remember, he is a big fan of rebranding!) in Sweeden originally, and the gentleman who started it – Ulf Ekman – was one of PY’s protege’s. Just look at this website and you will see what I am speaking is nothing but truth – http://www.chc.org.sg/sot/lecturers.asp
“Rev. Dr. Ulf Ekman is known throughout the world as a premier apostle, dynamic preacher, Bible teacher and author. He is the founder and pastor of the very exciting Word of Life church in Uppsala, Sweden. This church has an extensive missions program, and over a period of just a few years, more than 700 churches were started in Russia and Eastern Europe through their efforts. Out of his ministry, more than 2000 new churches have been birthed all over the world in the past 20 years.
He is the also the founder and president of Word of Life Bible Center, the largest Bible school in Europe, from which 7,000 students have graduated and are now working actively in the harvest field. Pastor Ulf holds a Master of Arts in Biblical Theology. Over the years he has written many books, such as A Life of Victory, Church of the Living God, and many more which are published in over 20 languages.
Since February 2002, Pastor Ulf Ekman and his wife, Birgitta, have been traveling extensively, further establishing the international ministry of Word of Life.
Rev. Dr. Peter Youngren has been acclaimed as one of the most influential Pentecostal healing evangelists in the 20th century by Ministries Today (Nov/Dec 1999). In 1987, God told him to prepare for the evangelism of the once-atheistic stronghold of the Soviet Union. Today, with its doors wide open, Pastor Peter has preached to a crowd of over 500,000 people in a single service there.
Pastor Peter is the senior pastor of Word of Life Church in Ontario, Canada, and the founder of World Impact Ministries. This ministry was started to help train and equip believers to make a difference in the world they live in. More than 120,000 pastors have attended his leadership seminars around the world.”
I think that’s enough for one day. Also, I’m pretty sure that he not only is running out of “grace”, but also legs to stand on. I pray for his true repentance often. I fear though that the damage done to his soul is much too deep to be repaired, short of a miracle from YHWH.
Here’s to miracles.
Correction: Peter Youngren is one of Ulf Ekman’s protege’s. Not the other way around. My grammatical mistake.
Since when is a board meeting not secret, since when are there not confidential files on congregants? These are the currencies of churchian politics, and I do not miss them. That is all.
Phatittyahu, what congregants? These two groups are associations, not churches.
There are many times boards do not meet in secret, depends on the type of governance, the organizations and the matters before the board.
The allegations are laid out plainly in Finland, and I apologize for the poor translation here – I have to use Googe.
This is from EKM’s lawyer, dated April 22nd.
The lawyer goes further than this.
This is now in the hands of Finnish Police. EKM is technically on the hook if Youngren broke the alleged agreement and sent out 6 thousand emails. Twice according to EKM.
I’ve placed this comment in a couple of other Peter Youngren posts to keep readers informed.
I think it’s important to hear WIM’s side. To that end, Peter Youngren responded to ChristianWeek on April 29th, 2010.
Mr. Youngren/WIM have not provided documentation to date, while documentation in itself isn’t proof of anything, it would be helpful.
Here is Mr. Youngren’s response to the magazine. If WIM choses to respond to BDBO, I’ll put it up.
ChristianWeek’s recent headline, “Finnish police investigate claims against Peter Youngren†was forwarded to me while conducting a “Friendship Festival†in Orissa, India. Interestingly, the main newspaper in Orissa ran a headline, “Youngren distributes the magic of God’s love†on the same day. While “magic†is not a word we feel comfortable with, the irony struck me; a Christian newspaper in Canada writing unsubstantiated vilifications while secular newspapers in a staunchly Hindu state, known for strong anti-Christian sentiments, speak encouragingly of our gospel work.
Are Finnish police investigating me? Not as far as I know; I’ve heard nothing. I wrote to ChristianWeek before they published this article: “Upon hearing statements about a police report and lawsuit in a phone meeting with EKM’s board in early February, I immediately contacted the Public Prosecutor in Osterbotten, Finland and the police in Vaasa, Finland. I have not received any reply, and consequently I cannot confirm or deny.†None of this information was printed.
(BD here: The EKM information states the interview with acting board chair Tom Lipkin was February 2nd, 2010. There is no word from Finland any police interviews have been conducted since)
Should not ChristianWeek’s article at least have carried a question mark? How does ChristianWeek know that Finnish police are investigating me? No source, other than a disgruntled pastor of a store-front church, is given. Is this pastor, David Sterling, a spokesperson for Finland’s police? ChristianWeek makes it appear as the article was filed from Vaasa, Finland. The reader is either to assume that ChristianWeek is quoting a local Finnish news report, or that ChristianWeek sent its reporter to Finland. Neither is true. Isn’t ChristianWeek giving its readers a false impression?
(That’s a classic red herring in the current of a he said, they said scenario. BD:^)
Now, a few facts for the record. I did not join a fledgling Finnish organization called EKM in 1993, at the invitation of David Sterling, any more than I joined World Impact Ministries [WIM] when it was small organization. I started both organizations, and I have been the driving force equally in Canadian WIM and Finnish EKM. EKM did not work with WIM on a few projects; it worked with WIM in all its projects. For seventeen years EKM did not do a single project other than those I initiated.
That appears to be the crux of the matter for Mr. Youngren – who owns and owned what and when. That having been stated, was Finlands privacy law violated and is EKM continuing their civil suit?
Ownership and money is discussed on the EKM site in Finnish. BD)
The relationship between myself and EKM’s board did not become strained when I shared with EKM’s board regarding my marital difficulties in the summer of 2009. In fact, I heard nothing from EKM about this. EKM’s board has never given me a proposal or discussed my marriage with me, though I have invited them to do so. There is a large volume of documentation that shows the strain started in the summer of 2007, due to the misconduct of two of EKM board members, one of them David Sterling.
(EKM states on it’s website (in Finnish) problems in the relationship began prior to August 2009 as Youngren has stated. Why the dispute began earlier is the subject of investigation. As well the EKM lawyer letter addresses these concerns. I’m reading in the EKM letter sent to Canada that they are proceeding with a civil suit, there is no statement the criminal investigation is closed – BD)
ChristianWeek claims to be investigating, and I encourage the paper to do just that. I have documentation from the owner of TV 7 in Finland that it is not allowing EKM to air any TV programs by its present leadership. If ChristianWeek really wanted to investigate, documentation is available to substantiate all my claims.
(I think that is a fair request and will ask if EKM leadership have ever produced programming or have had programming taken off TV 7 – BD)
Readers must be bored. What has all this got to do with a Canadian Christian newspaper? Is ChristianWeek publishing relevant news or engaging in journalistic sensationalism? This week World Impact Ministries distributed follow-up material to more than 50,000 individuals who received Christ in the first major evangelistic campaign in Orissa since the cruel murder of Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons in 1999. 1359 pastors from the entire state attended WIM’s Pastors’ Seminar. Maybe that could be worth an article in ChristianWeek.
(This has a great deal to do with a ‘Canadian Christian newspaper’ and Canadians. Mr. Youngren was given a licence to broadcast. That licence carries obligations, responsibilities and public awareness. Questions about WIM/GraceTV/Celebrate Churches and Youngren are reasonable. Go to blog aggregators, the few posts around Peter Youngren is mostly pr put out by Peter Youngren – BD)
Peter Youngren
St. Catharine’s, ON
I am not aware of any TV program produced by EKM. Their website http://www.ekm.nu/ does not mention any. Probably they don’t have the resources.
The letter by Martti Ojares, founder and manager of TV 7, states that the channel is shelving Mr. Youngren’s program because it does not want to get involved in the quarrel and get bad publicity in the secular media. “Reciprocally, we have to abstain from sending EKM’s programs, if they produced any.” – Translating from
http://youngrensuomi.net/index.php/celebration/2206/
Thanks Hiski, good catch.
No matter how the translation comes out Mr. Youngren is adapt at vilifying. I haven’t seen reciprocal vitrol from EKM Finland.
On April 29, 2010 Peter Youngren wrote Christian Week and said:
On March 29th, 2010, Taivas TV7′s statement from managing director Martti Ojares on World Impact Ministries Finland regarding the removal of Youngren’s program states:
Also stated in the Channel 7 translation (which I am not sure is printed in full by WIM)
a) Peter Youngren states he has not heard from Finnish authorities, fair enough.
A request has been made for a statement from Finnish police. He is aware an investigation was launched.
b) World Impact Ministries was aware the program was pulled in March as EKM states
c) EKM doesn’t appear to have had any programs on Channel 7, only product.
From what I understand from the station statement EKM software sales were suspended
c) It appears EKM has not had programming on the station contrary to the inference by Mr. Youngren that EKM leadership could not get their programs on the station – false equivalence fallacy from where I sit.
d) Despite the Youngren program being yanked off Channel 7, World Impact Ministries continues to advertise it on thier listings page
The perils of computer translation. The Ojares letter quote speaks of TV programs, not software. The keyword is “ohjelmia”. Sure that word is also used of software programs, but not here. Translation programs are notoriously blind to context.
EKM’s electronic sales or mailing lists are not in any way controlled by or affiliated with TV 7.
Hiski:
Thanks.:^)
I appreciate your help and I’ll try this again.
1) EKM paid for Youngren’s program to air on Channel 7
2) EKM did not and does not produce their own tv programs
3) Youngren continues to list Finland’s channel 7 as an international distributor even though it is not and
4) Youngren’s website states his program was pulled in Finland
“I have documentation from the owner of TV 7 in Finland that it is not allowing EKM to air any TV programs by its present leadership.” – Youngren ChristianWeek April 29th, 2010.
I’ve written Martti Ojares and asked for a copy of their March decision.
I see Helmi(Pearl)Media continues to offer Youngren product.
Do you know why?
http://www.helmimedia.com/tuotteet.html?id=1/
Pingback: Peter Youngren – Grace TV running out of money? at Bene Diction Blogs On
Hello, I am not new to these witch hunts. Not that I am trying to deminish the work being done in testing the fruit of people and I use “witchhunt” because I believe the times call for believers to be wise in whom they allow themselves to listen to. In the past, I wanted to know more about the word of faith, seeker sensitive, churches and what I found was a rabbit whole of insanity and terror that any informed Christian would weap over.
I know Peter Youngren, and I know his Toronto Celebration Church. I have had meeting with him in recent weeks and I tell you that your blog has helped myself and friends in our decisions regarding ministry. God knows that it is terrible for someone with power and wealth to take from someone who is weak and without without. Yet, I am watching this happen.
Sorry that I can not go into too much detail but I wanted to let you know that I agree with you that this man much like Sen. Grassleys 6, are not what they say they are. Perhaps, they started off alright but God knows, that we know them by their fruit. Pray for me in accodance to your faith.
Jo
Hi Joseph
After some time working with and being closely involved with PY
– I came to the conclusion that this man seems to suffer from accute “Narcissism Personality Disorderâ€.
There is no other explaination to the continuous, repeated behaviour patterns manifested in his life and ministry.
This dangerous personality disorder when combined with complete lack of accountability in ministry is perilous and highly toxic.
Narcissistic people often live tumultuous lives, as few people can tolerate them for long. PY is a prime example.
When you understand narcissists, it becomes easier to deal with them = FLEE, FLEE, FLEE as quickly as possible!
I see that many people in this thread are saying things like “you will know them by their fruits” in their efforts to tarnish the name of a man (Peter Youngren) who has brought more people to Jesus than any of you will in 100 lifetimes. Why are you so quick and willing to overlook this fruit of millions converted to Christ in some of the most openly anti Christina nations in the world because of some allegations which may or may not have any validity?
Even if the man has some problems are we to judge him through vain philosophies and bogus psycho analytics of secular institutions? Which one of you writing in to defame him is not a narcissist as well, spouting your lofty university philosophy argument terms as if that means anything at all to the God you serve or claim to serve, and will this win anyone at all to Christ?
God looks at the heart. I see in PY the heart of a man driven to spread the gospel to the four corners of the globe. I challenge you to have the courage go out into the world today and see if you can even begin to win souls to Christ the way PY has over the last 4 decades.
Disgusted
Halifax, NS.
Ouch, Kevin! I hope that speaks to those that need to hear it. I came on here to see about buying a tree in Israel through PY’s Ministries. I have not been able to join back into the church community since the pastor and his wife divorced with the involvement of church members in the late 80′s. That pastor and his wife were my husband and I. We did fall from grace. I know what the Word says about restoration and forgiveness and seeking out the one lost sheep but I never saw it and I don’t see it now. I love the Lord more now than I ever did. He never tore me down but picked me up. Something that the church should be doing. Not making public our brothers’ errors in the guise of protecting the church. Whether we like it or not PY is part of the church. He may be far from where he should be but I am sure God is saddened when the Christians join the world in tearing one of His down. This was a sad page to read. I cannot be part of “this church” that helps to murder fellow members. Thanks again, Kevin, for your reply here. It was the one note that caused me to feel that there is a glimmer of hope for the Church of Christ.
GB
Quebec
Hello Kevin, not to pick on this man as a singular.
But what if a person teaches those who have never held,
far less seen a Bible, never had a chance to discern and hold fast what
is true, and they are taught that which is not Biblical?
Kevin, (and all here), be a Berean! Paul said that they were fair, because
when he spoke, they searched the Scriptures to make sure it was so.
When Peter, and all preachers speak, open your Bible and make sure it’s so.
It takes away all confusion, but I’m sure you already know that!
Kellie
Canadians allways see the bad things that a HUMAN can do. They are so judgemental in all the ways. This men doesn’t matter people say THE WORLD as well as THE CHRISTIANs is bringing every day fruit in the kingdom of the heaven can you do that?. God bless you
Hello Mynor: I am Canadian and no, we don’t look for bad things that a human can
do. We are one of the most peaceful people on Earth. You know that if you are in Canada.
But Mynor, I will say to you too, if any person tells you things from the Bible,
Mynor, open YOUR Bible and prove from God’s word , what you have just heard!
Our Lord tells us to do this, Jesus tells us to do this, even Paul tells us to do this.
Prove everything you hear. That’s why Our Lord gave us the Bible! So we can read for ourselves. Do you understand? I will get you a Bible if you need one! That is my promise to you! Just tell me here and it will be done.
Love You, Kellie
Many of the “faithful” workers who believed in Pastor Peters vision have been wound by his “unfaithfullnes”.
Supporters are living in poverty because they gave all for the ministry.
It must be a family curse they are dealing with, now his brother Sam is separated.
I believe the Bible clearly states that if we lust after another woman it is a sin.
What about all the coverup, decitfulness, lies, code of silence the flock adhered to. Gossip seems to be a worse sin then cheating on your wife ..fathering a child with another’s wife..Preach Grace and Mercy but ignore scripture like I Thess. 4 vs 2-4….
Lord have Mercy..more sin in the church and we are trying to change the sinners in the world..hmmmm
Where will it all end…Sjaan
Please don’t buy a tree in Israel…another gimmick.
Testimony is more important than the ‘appearance’ of fruit. I do have an example of a testimony, my own. At 15 I watched 100 Huntley St reluctantly one night, I hated religion I didn’t want to watch it. A man shared with the audience that Christ Jesus gave him a second chance in life and that intrigued me because I was coming to the end of myself. As I was listening I was given a vision of the Lake of fire, as I beheld this, the Holy Spirit told me in a ‘gentle’ way that if I continued in the path that I was in and died I would end up in it. The Lord didn’t promise me a white Rolls Royce He did however give me an understanding that I would lose friends and family as a result of my conversion. Knowing that I would lose my treasures on Earth but heeding the warning of Hell’s fire I did repent and asked Christ Jesus to forgive me and enter into my life. Real Christians get reviled and suffer loss[and might I add would not rip off widows to rent a luxurious $10,000 a night suite], we are a savor of life to some and to the majority a savor of death. Their own death of eternity. They know this in their hearts but do not have an understanding of what they feel to express it verbally. They do have an understanding of what the feel. The witness of our spirits condemns their unredeemed spirits[the very presence of our redeemed spirits]. This is what causes persecution to the believer and this is why they hate the children of God. Our redeemed spirits provoke the stench of their own dead spirits. Either they repent from this conviction or they try to drive us away so they can live in their own peace. I would not say peace its more like their comfort zone. A lot of our Christian leaders live way to comfortably to be Christians. The World is more discerning then our fellow believers. Our TV Evangelists/Healers are more like panhandlers than they are ministers of Christ. Next time they panhandle on the airwaves they should sell their collection of luxury cars such as Rolls Royce’s first, instead of fleecing good hearted Christians who are living from paycheck to paycheck. These men and women have no shame whatsoever. Fellas enjoy your $10,000 a night hotel rooms because the blackest of darkness is reserved for your eternal homecoming. The fires of Hell can not illuminate the choking and suffocating darkness of its nether regions.
Come out of the closet all you Youngrenites. Silenced long enough.
Stand up for what is right and just. Help those who have been wounded by Pastor Peter. Do not pretend it did not happen and continue to support this minisrty, because you have no where else to go. Or it is your paycheck.
We are to judge those in the church.
We are saddened everytime we drive through St. Catharines, our heart cries.
We were ashamed for Pastor Peter. To hear of his adultery on the roads in Africa was devastating for all of us.
To still deal with this hurt, may be because there was no repentenance.
It had been dealt with…was the answer.
Pretty sad…..help us all heal…everyone needs compassion.
Question for all of you out there, are you all without sin in your lives? How bout we put you guys on trial? How would you all feel? Only God can judge let’s keep that in mind. Just keep praying for him!!!
“How would you all feel?”
What I’d feel is irrelevant and I won’t speak for others.
Trial is what happens when the law has been broken and someone is charged.
They have a right to trial.
When any person steps into the public eye, they accept certain responsibilities that come with their granted privileges.
We don’t make the distinction between judging and accountability gospelgal, we don’t discern, question or demand and expect accountability.
We also don’t honour public responsibility, or hold leaders to that responsibility.
The bible is clear about conduct and fruit of a public leader.
I agree with you – praying for Mr. Youngren is wise.
“Are you all without sin in your lives?”
Cop out gospelgal, a cheap and ill thought out cop out.
Hi, I watched Peter on TV this past week, to understand what he might be trying to say.
And I heard no Scripture, but I did hear “give me”.
And on this night in what the world believes is the eve of Jesus’ birthday, it dawned on me. If Jesus were to return tomorrow night, which He won’t, would He attend Peter’s church?
No He would not! There is no Biblical truth there. I and all of us have the Bible to back this up! But Peter’s not a standout. TV is full of programs and preachers who are the same. Peter is a little fish compared to the biggest names out there, but they appear to be all in the same boat.
So, let them go. Any discussions about this?
Let us use the Bible to discern.
Kellie
It is unfortunate that many sincere Christians have not recognised the place that narcissism holds in many “ministries” and “churches”.
I recommend these articles (link) to all involved with high-profile, media ministers.
Of course it is to be found in other ministries also, but the whole modern Christian TV-ministry world is furtile breeding ground for this destructive personality disorder.
http://www.power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm
If you have encountered a narcissist in your world, you may be able to identify from the above description (link) what you have been dealing with. Or you may have an ‘ah-ha’ experience, as I did when I first began researching this personality.
The narssistic minister can be very abusive and destructive to the church and ministry, and wreak havoc in the personal lives of those closest to them – particularly to those in his own family and of course his staff and leadership
I too have concerns about the errors contained in Mr. Youngren’s teachings, and, the methods by which he solicits money, not only on “Grace” TV but at his “church” and through campaigns. There are many rumours alledging what these funds have been used for (foreign properties, a jet for personal use, Las Vegas gambling trips etc). Also, allegedly that funds collected in foreign countries are not being reported, and therefore, not subject to charitable expenditure rules. So if anyone knows personally of misuse of funds, non-reporting of foreign holdings or has viewed breaking of CRTC rules regarding on air requests for funds, they should contact the appropriate agency.
Canada Revenue Agency:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/gncy/nvstgtns/lds-eng.html
Canadian Television& Radio Council:
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/rapidsccm/register.asp?lang=e
For those who are, or have been, employed by WIM, Grace TV or any other PY enterprise and feel that they have been wronged, here’s some information from a previous post from another blog:
If you looking for an avenue to ensure that potential labour injustices towards yourself and others are investigated, you should contact the Ontario Ministry of Labour; here is a link to the website: http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/feedback/feedform.php?source=es
The narcissist is a professional at forming expectations that are based upon the ‘image’ that the narcissist has of himself. This can easily proven by just simply looking at WIMs (Youngrens) home page, web-site. On the front page alone there are 4 photos of this man in differeant postures.
Counting all the photos of him throughout the whole web-site – the total amount comes near to one hundred pictures. Quite simple to see that we are dealing with a serious narsisstic personality. BEWEARE!
Looks like more is spent on photo shoots and marketing campaigns than on delivering an honest message and helping those in need.
It’ s about time that these preachers were exposed for their greedy endeavers. They preach righteousness, but fall short of biblical wisdom. It is a bit ironic that many denominations exsist in the Body of Christ today, but no “Unity’ . it seems strange that we condemn other faiths as being a cult, but refuse to rectify are own short comings. No wonder the world laughs and mocks us who belong to the evangilical church today. It would be so nice to see John 17;21 come to fruition where Jesus says; “Thay they all may be one, as You, Father, are in me and I in You; that they also may be one in Us. that the world may believe that You sent Me. Theis has been a personal prayer for thirty-five as a born again Christian. God bless.
It’ s about time that these preachers were exposed for their greedy endeavers. They preach righteousness, but fall short of biblical wisdom. It is a bit ironic that many denominations exsist in the Body of Christ today, but no “Unity’ . it seems strange that we condemn other faiths as being a cult, but refuse to rectify are own short comings. No wonder the world laughs and mocks us who belong to the evangilical church today. It would be so nice to see John 17;21 come to fruition where Jesus says; “Thay they all may be one, as You, Father, are in me and I in You; that they also may be one in Us. that the world may believe that You sent Me. Theis has been a personal prayer for thirty-five as a born again Christian. God bless.
Thomas, good point! On that 1st day of Penticost in the Book of Acts.
One God, one Jesus, one Holy Spirit, one Bible, and one Church. And today?
Every TV preacher, and street corner church; God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and Bible in
“our” opinion. It has to be that all of these preachers in their own venues cater to
appease “itching ears” for the sake of money. They know that to do otherwise would mean big financial loss. Do they care? Don’t think so. Loss of congregation and financial
reward is too much to bare. Sad but true and it won’t stop until that day…..
That is the “business” of religion!
Kellie
Good line of reasoning. But “that day” may be an epoch in approaching. Meanwhile, educating and developing a stratagem to effectively lobby legislators and politicians might be accommodating. Effective, tangible progress in dealing with the likes of Peter involves deeds more than reciting the story of the day of Pentecost, and speculating when jesus might step in to adjudicate. Seems he has been somewhat deferred.
We have witnessed this same “delay” in the Grassley investigations and recognize how deep the problems lie. A superficial scratching at the facade by quoting the word will have zero effect on the problem. Tim can be a valuable resource if you would like some pointers on being an effective combatant rather than an static scribe.
Hi Atheist
I gather you don’t believe there is a God, but that’s not for me to argue, I’m no master in the art of debate. But, an epoch coming? Yes it is. There’s 2 books; Daniel and Revelation, and preachers seem to avoid them like the Black Death. These are the map to the “epoch”. It’s really scary once understood.
Now, to lobby governments to root out given ministers, that’s not going to happen.
As wrong as they me be, because of their congregations, they are a political powerhouse. Note, Grassley has been silenced. So the Lord will look after business
as He said He would. And I don’t think I’m a static scribe, respectfully of course.
A history trivia question. If Hitler created the 3rd Reich, what was the 1st?
The Bible and History, I love His Word!
Do well!
Kellie
Kellie (With equal respect)
Atheists believe there is insufficient evidence to prove the existence of god. and oddly, you and I are closer to atheist sympathies than you ever imagined. I simply believe in 1 less god (out of thousands) than you.
You could not be more accurate in your assessment of TV ministries. With 46% of the USA population believing in god, Grassley never stood a chance, and with politics and his membership in “The Family” essentially eroding any remaining hope we may have had for the effectiveness of his campaign, we stand perplexed at the pointless exercise in the first place.
The First Reich, according to my understanding, was also known as The Holy Roman Empire (a continuation of the Roman Empire in Europe), that started in the lands ruled by Charlemagne. The early Roman Catholic Church is where the snypotic gospels originated. Your lovely Jesus was invented by this group. Its shocking to understand how this happened.
You might be well advised to acquaint yourself with the dating of the book of Daniel before you throw yourself too far under its magical spell. and while you are doing that, get a better grasp on the history behind the book of the revelation. You may toss out that 1 god of yours a little sooner than you expected. I was a Bible thumping, fire and brimstone preaching Christian for over 30 years. I sounded exactly as you do (maybe better – lol) . Get educated my friend – then you will understand real discrimination.
Enjoyed your post!
Atheist, Hi
Again, respectfully. I’m no burn in hell Bible thumper. The Bible states if I’m a good person, I don’t go to Heaven when I die, nor do I go to this place called hell and burn forever. Dante’, I believe.
The 1st Reich, Justinian lit the fire, app 554 AD.
Jesus a fiction? Please see the writings of Josephus, a Roman historian, circa 100AD.
But Rome sure put a spin on Him. A long blonde haired, fair skinned man, with a halo behind Him. Jesus was Jewish, olive skinned, with dark hair. His skin would have been almost rough from all of His days under the sun. He was a carpenter’s kid,
He was no weakling. The halo, Sol Invicti. Make sense? The compounding of things.
Peter and all aside, we can’t stop these people, nor should we try.
I can’t ask your history here, but it would sure be interesting.
There is a God and a Son and honestly, weeding through all the crap we’ve been taught, it can be hard to see.
Kellie
“Jesus a fiction? Please see the writings of Josephus, a Roman historian, circa 100AD.”
Kellie: Read and learn.
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. All sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.
Josephus was not born until at least 4 years after Jesus supposedly died. (37CE-100CE)
Kellie .. If there is a god, present your evidence.
There are more New Testament manuscripts that have been discovered, and remain a reliable witness for all it’s martyr’s, than any other of ancient text. To conceive that any writing could maintain or be preserved exactly as it was in the original, with every perfect word, would be a nice thought. However, what is perserved, which are around 5,000 documents, starting with the first century AD, simply shares the “good news” of Jesus Christ the Son of God. These documents have and still are turning the world around, because of the story of one man, Jesus Christ. (This is the nutshell version)
Susan: “However, what is perserved, which are around 5,000 documents, starting with the first century AD, simply shares the “good news” of Jesus Christ the Son of God.”
You have established the reality of Jesus, owing to the momentous quantity of documents? No witnesses – just documents. We may conclude therefore, that to validate a religion, simply write thousands of documents. Disregard bona fide substantiation; just produce thousands of documents, based on hearsay evidence.
Compare your drivel with facts.
An overwhelming percentage of Jews in Jesus’ day did not believe him, even though they knew their Scriptures and even though they were present. So why should I believe? Why should anyone?
Although the gospels of the New Testament– like those discovered at Nag Hammadi- are attributed to Jesus’ followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them. Not only do we not know who wrote them, none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. None of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies. (Thousands of your alleged documents)
Not a single instance in any of Paul’s writings claims that he ever meets or sees an earthly Jesus, nor does Paul give any reference to Jesus’ life on earth (except for a few well known interpolations). Therefore, all accounts about a Jesus could only have come from other believers or his imagination. Hearsay.
Editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the scriptoria and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves. The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, most people simply believed what their priests told them.
Martin Luther opined: “What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.”
With such admission to accepting lies, the burning of heretical texts, Bible errors and alterations, how could any honest scholar take any book from the New Testament as absolute, much less using extraneous texts that support a Church’s intransigent and biased position, as reliable evidence?
The (nut)shell version Susan? Appropriately named.
Kellie “Jesus was Jewish, olive skinned, with dark hair. His skin would have been almost rough from all of His days under the sun. He was a carpenter’s kid,”
Absolutely, and we have the movies to prove it! Everyone knows what he looked like.
The Life and Passion of Jesus Christ
(1902-05)
The King of Kings
(1927)
The Gospel According to St. Matthew
(1964)
The Greatest Story Ever Told
(1965)
The Messiah
(1976)
Jesus of Nazareth
(1977)
Jesus
(1999)
The Miracle Maker
(2000)
The Passion of the Christ
(2004
Show me on this earth who can explain away over 4,000 years of charts, maps and biblical history. Explain away the history of bible translations. Explain away distributions of nations. Explain away to me the United Kingdoms of Saul, David and Solomon, then the divided Kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Discount countless journeys throughout timelines and how the epistles are not of significants, because of so many of these types of accounts.
Don’t you see, the authors of the NT did not know they were writing a NT or scripture. I will venture to say neither did the first century readers. The beauty to me about the Gospels, is it’s great mystery of hope. Something this world can leave you short of.
Susan.
Don’t be so lazy. You are so accustomed to being hand fed that you believe you do not have the ability to reason, research and think for yourself.
Do your own work as I have over many years of application and study. Try to find scholarly, historical, scientific, and factually verifiable data to support your beliefs. Perhaps in the process you can answer your own agruments of ignorance.
Perhaps through my efforts when I search through the scriptures and read the history behind it all, I find an intelligent design, that is just part of the mystery of His love.
Susan.
Susan.
You may discover far more treachery than you ever imagined man could be capable of in the name of religion. And you may find an intelligent design. One devious heinous and unspeakably treacherous device to enslave the mind and control the body passed off as the intelligent work of god in a fraud so profoundly intricate that it keeps those who look superficially, bound in chains of dogma and canon all their lives. Look deep!
Choice is yours! Learn and be free or have faith and be fooled.
How often throughout history have leaders of religions and the powers they possed seeked out to force their intentions on the weak and weary. Who manifested their own wills on the people saying it’s of God.
Deeper, yes. Much deeper I have looked. Freedom I seek everyday. To be fooled no more by lies and false hopes. Every subject about God is long and one could cover chapter after chapter to find some type of an answer. Love is the greatest gift of all.
You have a choice too. Such is the fate of mankind.
Susan …
Shorten the process. Read books by scholars, historians and scientists. You wont find many at your local Christian bookstore.
Susan ..
Many who enter seminary emerge as atheists or agnostics. But many of those raised in the church since birth, descend towards an unspoken belief that church is a place where people are supposed to do what they’re told, believe what they are told to believe, and never pose questions.
Somehow asking questions about faith and questioning the answers you are given is taboo.
Is this how you feel Susan?
This is incredibly dangerous. It’s incredibly dangerous because it creates in believers a “house of cards faith” that is ready to disintegrate at the slightest gust of wind. That is essentially what happened to me.
The mere fact that Christians fear other Christians losing their faith by going to seminary says something about the faith that we are teaching in church.
There is a real problem if there is anything that an individual can learn in seminary that can cause them to doubt their faith. Doubting and even abandoning certain elements of it is fine, but if seminary is causing individuals doubt the truth of the Christian faith, that is a real problem with the Christian faith and it’s not a dilemma with our seminaries.
I wonder if perhaps we were a little more honest about the difficulties of the Christian faith, if there wouldn’t be such a fear of the effects of higher education
I was not raised in a church. I believe, more now than ever, that people are far more important than any building or organization that houses a church. However, I like gathering together as a congregation for the purpose of worship and teaching.
There are so many things in this life that mankind can’t explain, even the words that compile The Bible. There has been and still are many theologies out there. That’s why I like to research the history.
I’ve gain too much as a christian to toss The Bible aside. From manuscripts to historical documents, the explainations flow. Just the same, I see there is a power that one can miss that is represented in The Bible. For example, spiritual warfare, the message of a deliverance, a hope for a restorated life for one who has no hope, etc. As God’s word goes forward, it certainly has it’s merits.
This is how I feel. Thanks
Susan …
“I was not raised in a church”
– nor was I .
“There are so many things in this life that mankind can’t explain, even the words that compile The Bible. There has been and still are many theologies out there. That’s why I like to research the history.”
– undertake to add science, astronomy, physiology, psychiatry, biology to your studies. You’ll find the explanations soon enough. If beautiful words are what you desire – read Shakesphere.
“I’ve gain too much as a christian to toss The Bible aside” – and what exactly would be the problem in keeping the good parts and tossing the nonsense?
.” From manuscripts to historical documents, the explainations flow.”
– The manuscripts are utterly suspect, and the documents are copies of reproductions. The authors were people with malicious intentions. They wrote the New Testament. Not the disciples.
“Just the same, I see there is a power that one can miss that is represented in The Bible.” – Yes, it’s called the power of suggestion.
“ For example, spiritual warfare, the message of a deliverance, a hope for a restorated life for one who has no hope, etc. As God’s word goes forward, it certainly has it’s merits.”
– You can get this in the self-help section at the bookstore in your local Safeway.
“This is how I feel. Thanks”
– I’m more interested in how you think than how you feel. I’m more interested in facts than your faith, and evidence as opposed to your assumptions and conjecture. Are you terrified to take a serious look at the foundations for fear the entire house might fall?
Holy teachings are entrusted to those who understand their concepts. Those are facts documented throughout history. For me, to deprive myself of any part of the biblical legacy, does not lend me insight into the significant parts of what a christian is all about. For me to go further with you on this is futile, because you really don’t won’t to hear what I have to say, and I certainly don’t won’t to waste your time. I see now I need to stop here. Take care.