By Rick Hiebert. All Rights Reserved, Used by Permission
There’s been a bit of a fuss recently on The Elijah List, Steve Schultz’s e-list for charismatics, which sends e-mails to thousands of people worldwide.
Evangelist Dennis Cramer sent an e-mail to the list critiquing what he sees as some of the failures and abuses of some teachers in the charismatic movement. The e-mails on The Elijah List are sometimes sent in partial format–in order to see the full items, you have to click on a link to The Elijah Lists’ own website. So, if you waited a day or so, and wanted to read what Cramer had to say, you were out of luck. The full e-mail message of his critique had been pulled.
On January 10, Dennis Cramer, who teaches and preaches widely, sent his first e-mail out to Schultz. Schultz passed it along to The Elijah List’s subscribers.
I will be posting all the various e-mails in full in the comments underneath, in case more disappear. But I will refer to each briefly so you can follow what went on.
Cramer opens by arguing that he fears that most Christians’ Bibles are covered with dust:
“….Sadly, many Christians now read more books about the Bible then they do the Bible itself.
Consequently, many in the Church have gradually and somewhat unknowingly, become Biblically ignorant, unaware or stunted. And doctrinally speaking, anything goes. There is now wide-spread acceptance of “marginal to heretical” doctrines. Just 25 years ago individuals would have been thrown out of the Church if caught teaching these heresies. How did this happen?
Simply, we have become Biblically ignorant. We have not been diligent to feed on the unadulterated Word of God. We are at best malnourished, and in some cases, starving to death. Biblical ignorance is on the increase in the Church, even to epidemic levels! Like any form of “lack” created by ignorance which can lead to sickness, only the proper “intake,” or in these cases, only proper Biblical education can remedy it.
Warning: We Live in an Age of “Anything Goes” Theology! The Charismatic Church is in Big Trouble!….”
Cramer adds “….In 40 years of serving God, I have not heard so much bad doctrine preached from so-called “Bible-believing” Christians – specifically charismatic Christians….”
He then goes on to specifically condemn various practices as “BAD DOCTRINE”, and “stretching the truth” He has in mind things such as “Divorce among Christians without consequences”, going into trances, visiting heaven and being transported from place to place “at will”
Cramer wrote that he fears “mass deception” in the church.
Okay, I though to myself, he’s one of the more conservative–if not more orthodox–members of the charismatic movement. He has good points and it will be interesting to see what kind of dicussion and debate results from this.
Well, it’s kind of hard to have a debate when one side disappears.
Steve Schultz, I will admit, has a difficulty. He needs not to annoy a big segment of his audience as The Elijah List does not have charitable status. So, every day, he has to send out paid e-mail ads for conferences or for materials that he sells online. And for every Cramer in his audience, there is someone in his audience who has no issue with what Cramer decries. And boy, did Schultz hear from the “other side” of the debate, and quickly.
The very next day, January 11, Schultz had pulled Cramer’s “word” from The Elijah List website. He then e-mailed an “Important Clarification” to The Elijah List’s readers.
Schultz wrote:
“There was a huge number of people who were unclear on a few issues with Dennis Cramer’s word from the Lord and they wrote to us about it. There was likely an equal number of people who are upset with us for TEMPORARILY pulling Dennis Cramer’s word for clarification. This has happened before when a word went out and people didn’t quite understand what was being said.
Many people LOVED the word and understood it from the start. Yet many others were confused. It was simply “many” on both sides. Since the response was so intense, we pulled it quickly…..”
Schultz does concede to Cramer that teaching that Christians can go to heaven whenever they want, i.e., “at will” is un-Biblical. But God can chose to do these things with you as He chooses. God “calls the shots”.
After walking the fence, Schultz posted a rewritten word from Cramer on January 15.
To Schultz’s credit, as I wtite the new version of Cramer word is up at The Elijah List site. However, the frank language above, which added a lot of passion to what he has to say, has in places been changed.
Cramer explains why he thinks his critiques of some charismatic practices are valid.
Credit to both of them, I say. However, it will be interesting to see what happens to The Elijah List’s advertising. Will the more “wild-eyed” use another e-mail list in response to HOW Schulz has chosen to handle this?
And I do need to note that, like all of us, Cramer “sees through a glass darkly”. Online Christian apologist Bud Press notes several occurances where Cramer issued prophecies that did not come true. This was in 2006, with extra details here. A prophecy of a trumphant warrior bride of Christ in 2007 as struck Press as kind of iffy. [Press asked "Please explain your reason for using these statements in conjunction with a picture of a woman carrying an M16 assault rifle on your website."] Hopefully Cramer has a response for Bud Press.
That said, though, Cramer’s call to charismatics to take their Bibles and check the validity of what they say and do is a breeze of fresh air. I’d like to give Cramer credit for trying to do the right thing.
Fortunately Dennis Cramer’s word, as first written for The Elijah List, was saved by a blogger here:
http://prophetgene.blogspot.com/2011/01/dennis-cramer-eleven-words-for-2011.html
Cramer wrote:
“It is Time to Dust Off Your Bible!
Picture in your mind, if you will, the image of an unused, dust-covered Bible. Now picture in your mind that this same dust-covered Bible is your Bible! This is not a good image to be sure, especially for a Bible-believing Christian in 2011. Sadly, many Christians now read more books about the Bible then they do the Bible itself.
Consequently, many in the Church have gradually and somewhat unknowingly, become Biblically ignorant, unaware or stunted. And doctrinally speaking, anything goes. There is now wide-spread acceptance of “marginal to heretical” doctrines. Just 25 years ago individuals would have been thrown out of the Church if caught teaching these heresies. How did this happen?
Simply, we have become Biblically ignorant. We have not been diligent to feed on the unadulterated Word of God. We are at best malnourished, and in some cases, starving to death. Biblical ignorance is on the increase in the Church, even to epidemic levels! Like any form of “lack” created by ignorance which can lead to sickness, only the proper “intake,” or in these cases, only proper Biblical education can remedy it.
Warning: We Live in an Age of “Anything Goes” Theology! The Charismatic Church is in Big Trouble!
So, here is my 2011 prophetic “prescription” for this beautiful but Biblically challenged, even unhealthy, Bride.
1. Orthodoxy! I would like to prescribe a good healthy dose of the written Word of God, the Bible. The Church needs an immediate injection of the truth! We must all pray for the Church to return to the orthodoxy (traditional belief) of Scripture. This means a return to the proper reading, INTERPRETATION, and application of the Bible in our lives. There is a growing trend toward some really bad doctrine out there. And we, the Church, must put a stop to it! If we don’t, no one else will! The Church must begin to police herself against unorthodox (false) teaching and bizarre practices. You must reacquaint yourself with the Scriptures and know your Bible.
In 40 years of serving God, I have not heard so much bad doctrine preached from so-called “Bible-believing” Christians – specifically charismatic Christians.
2. Berea! We must pray for a “Berean Revival” in the Church – a revival which returns us all to our roots – our roots in the Word of God. In the Bible, the original Bereans were Believers who “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things be so.” There is a lot of doctrine currently in circulation in the charismatic Church that is highly questionable – even heretical.
Each Believer must begin to “search the Scriptures” for himself to discover whether what he is believing is Biblical or not (Acts 17:11). Stop unequivocally trusting ministers and their pulpits to always and completely preach the truth – some do, some do not. You need to search and know the Scriptures for yourself. If their teachings sound too good to be true – they very well may be! Know your Bible.
3. Preach the Word! (2 Timothy 4:2). It is time for the Church to return to her basic Bible beliefs (fundamental doctrines) and the core values these fundamental doctrines produce. Peripheral doctrines or beliefs are peripheral for a reason, and can lead to dangerous theologically positions and questionable practices. We must stop extracting obscure, vague, single, solitary verses out of context, and stop trying to make major “sound” doctrines out of them.
This “stretching of the truth” must stop. Some of our so-called “proof texts” do not prove what’s being preached at all. We are “twisting the Scriptures to our own destruction.” We must again major in major doctrine and minor in the minor ones. My prophetic word to all Pastors/Teachers for 2011 is simple: “Preach the Word!” Know your Bible.
Some examples of current doctrine circulating in the Church: You must believe me that I am NOT making this stuff up!
• Open Theism: Teaches God is not sovereign = BAD DOCTRINE
• Ultimate Reconciliation/Restitution of all things = BAD DOCTRINE
• The “nefilin” children alive on earth = BAD DOCTRINE
• Open Heaven/Spiritual portals = BAD DOCTRINE
• Third Heaven experiences at will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Going to Heaven at will to get your gifts = BAD DOCTRINE
• Cloud of witnesses/dead saints = BAD DOCTRINE
• Traveling in time at will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Transporting physically at will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Over-emphasis on angels and specifically arc-angels = BAD DOCTRINE
• Going into trances at will = BAD DOCTRINE
• Trance dancing = BAD DOCTRINE
• Going to Hell to discern evil spirits = BAD DOCTRINE
• Hyper-Grace: Christians do not need to repent of sin = BAD DOCTRINE
• Quick restoration of fallen church leaders = BAD DOCTRINE
• Divorce among Christians without consequences = BAD DOCTRINE
• The Bible contains cultural and gender biases = BAD DOCTRINE
4. Seducing Spirits! (1 Timothy 4:1-4). There has been loosed on the Church for 2,000 years a literal army of demons whose sole task is to deceive the Church! Unfortunately, these deceiving, seducing spirits are enjoying some of their most successful efforts. Why?
The average Believer does not know His Bible. The Bible is absolute truth, forever settled in Heaven. It is our sword of the Spirit – two-edged and deadly. To be Bible-ignorant is to have no offensive weapon against our enemy satan. Our ONLY defense against our enemy is a proven offense. And our proven offense against this hoard of demons is the written Word of God, the Bible. Jesus wielded this same written Word-sword against satan in the wilderness with great results. So should you!
I hear the Church saying again, “DEVIL, IT IS WRITTEN!” It does not matter what you think, feel, sense, or even believe. It does not matter what experience you claim to have had, or how many trips to Heaven you claim to have made, or how many angels you know on a first name basis. The only thing that matters is what God said in His Word. Know your Bible.
5. The Devourer! (Malachi 3:11). WARNING: All non-tithing Believers are going to fall victim to a spirit called the “Devourer” unless they return to a systematic lifestyle of financial giving that the Bible calls tithes and offerings! This demonic entity, an actual living thing, will attach itself to the finances of any non-tithing Believer. However, for all faithful tithing Believers the results will be the opposite: God will rebuke this devourer for their sake, and they will enjoy the “open windows of Heaven” lifestyle promised for all who do not “rob” God. They will be a “blessed land” with showers of financial provision from above! Know your Bible.
6. Divorce! Some Believers will suffer the consequences of unwisely entering into unscriptural divorces. These divorces of convenience have angered God, bringing Him to place judgments upon some ministers and their ministries. We need to be reminded that God hates divorce. Know your Bible.
7. Deception! Many will willingly and increasingly enter into incorrect thinking. Hardcore deception will find a home in the Church in 2011 if we are not diligent to know and follow the Word of God. Remember these words from Scripture: “Be not deceived!” This is a command, and the responsibility of all Bible-believing Believers. Notice that deception is a choice! We must choose not to be deceived in 2011. How? Know your Bible!
8. Prophets! As a Prophet, Jesus Christ enjoyed only a very brief season of popularity, followed by His crucifixion as a falsely convicted criminal. Many prophets will suffer the same fate in 2011. I fear that the season of popularity for many prophets is over. As James wrote, “As an example of SUFFERING, take the prophets.” Know your Bible.
9. Underground! An exciting and even more powerful supernatural “underground Church” will emerge in 2011. The true Church is much smaller than many think it is. And true apostles and prophets will emerge within this true underground Church. Essentially, a nameless and faceless core, these foundational ministries will re-direct their efforts away from their so called networks, and will devote themselves to returning to the local Church level where their greatest effect and spiritual impact on the Body of Christ will be realized. Know your Bible.
10. Prize! God gave me this verse for literally every Believer worldwide for 2011. “I press toward the goal (in 2011) for the PRIZE of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” Remember that you have been apprehended by God, for God. Let’s all forget about those things that are behind, and reach forward (in 2011) for those things which are ahead. There is an eternal prize awaiting you! Know your Bible.
11. Pearl! Jesus Christ is the Pearl of great price. He is your ultimate reward for 2011. He is your Master and you serve Him and Him alone for 2011! Make 2011 the year in which you live for Him again without reservation. It is time to sell everything (figuratively speaking) and purchase that Pearl of great price in 2011 and beyond! Amen! Know your Bible.
Beloved, I think you get my point: Know your Bible!
Hope this helps,
Dennis Cramer
Dennis Cramer Ministries
Email: denniscramer1@comcast.net
Go to my website, “Dennis Cramer Ministries,” and check out a new and exciting prophetic service that I am now offering. It has proven to be life changing for many! Click on “Prophetic Consultations” on my homepage tabs.”
Steve Shultz’s follow-up…
http://tinyurl.com/4j9t74o
…which he sent out January 11 reads like this:
“January 11, 2011
Steve Shultz:
Important Clarification of
Dennis Cramer’s Word:
“Eleven Words for 2011″
From the desk of Steve Shultz:
Dear Elijah List Readers,
There was a huge number of people who were unclear on a few issues with Dennis Cramer’s word from the Lord and they wrote to us about it. There was likely an equal number of people who are upset with us for TEMPORARILY pulling Dennis Cramer’s word for clarification. This has happened before when a word went out and people didn’t quite understand what was being said.
Many people LOVED the word and understood it from the start. Yet many others were confused. It was simply “many” on both sides. Since the response was so intense, we pulled it quickly. I just got off the phone with Dennis Cramer to speak to him about a clarification of the word. He is happy to do it but time is not on his side. We will receive it Friday. When we get it, we’ll send it out ASAP. I don’t know if we’ll have his clarification in time to send it to you on Friday, but if not we’ll get it out during the weekend.
Let me explain that Dennis Cramer also assured me that he had NO specific ministry or minister in mind when he wrote his word.
The most controversial aspect was the “AT WILL” issue. Apparently, there are some out and about who are teaching that you can transport or go to Heaven “AT WILL” – i.e. whenever you want. This is truly not taught in Scripture. The word “Doctrine” is another word for “teaching.” It’s an untrue teaching that anytime you want, you can go to Heaven or be transported.
It’s God’s choice to tell you what HE wants to do with you and HOW HE wants to do it and when. Yes, we can place ourselves in a place of being ready for such a thing or transportation to Heaven – but God calls the shots and calls people to Open Heaven situations as HE CHOOSES.
As soon as Dennis Cramer sends us a more in-depth explanation of the items he listed, we plan to repost my friend’s word. My apologies for any of our readers who were offended.
Dennis Cramer is a Bible-believing Christian, who is also a highly accurate prophet. Again, he will get to this by Friday and then we will repost the word for you. We are attempting to be a good steward of God’s prophets and prophetic people. We do understand that some will be happy with us for this temporary situation and others will be upset. But the final product will be all the clearer, so we pray we are making the right decision.”
The word as it was edited and reposted on January 15:
http://elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=9511
Schultz introduces what Cramer writes:
January 15, 2011
Dennis Cramer:
Clarified Word for 2011
From the desk of Steve Shultz:
This is an awesome clarification by my friend, Dennis Cramer. Since the inception of the Elijah List, no word has received 100% approval or disapproval on any word we have EVER posted – some love it and some rebuke us for each word.
Dennis Cramer has shown great compassion to me on the phone yesterday, so I know he is a truly caring person. We wept on the phone together over the issues in question that we, a prophetic people and we as the Church, wrestle with. For instance, the Elijah List received both kudos from Dennis’ word, as well as questions/concerns from others who didn’t quite understand the word. Here are some important points to consider as you read this:
On the divorce and restoration subject, the Apostle Peter was restored in a short 50 days after cursing his Savior (far worse than divorce); then Pentecost broke out after Peter’s message. So each situation of restoration is subjective and no two people will see the same restoration the same way on ANY word. That’s just a fact.
Some prophets also see the issue of angels differently. Find your own peace with the Lord regarding angels, but never brag about angels but STAY IN THE WORD OF GOD – THE Bible. Paul warns us not to be puffed up regarding angelic visitations.
I want to comment that my health issue, to which Dennis refers to in preamble, was first a tremendous decrease in my weight (some 50 pounds a few years back). I have now regained my weight back with much prayer and hard work, but health issues lately have continued as I am often targeted, based on the ministry we do. I have experienced various other forms of symptoms to which medical tests show nothing abnormal. It manifests mainly in physical weakness or migraines and even warfare that I discern. The good news is that God has brought me much closer to HIM in this weakness. Nevertheless, I still feel we are all called to seek complete healing since Jesus healed all who asked for healing at His Hand. He never refused.
Are all healed? No, of course not. Many of the saints “go home to be with Jesus.” This could be because their days were numbered OR because the devil took them out prematurely. But as much as possible, we should seek to be made whole through Jesus and then praise our Lord for the final answer.
Now, here is the very well done clarification of Dennis Cramer’s word from the Lord, “Eleven Words for 2011″ as I promised to send to you. I had a pastor some 26 years ago who kept saying, “Eat the meat and spit out the bones.” I exhort you to do the same with this word, as YOU discern it from the WRITTEN WORD. I expect some of you to LOVE this word and others to have a problem with one point or another. It’s always been that way and likely always will.”
[And now Dennis Cramer]
Dennis Cramer:Clarified Word for 2011Hi Steve,
Greetings my brother!
First, let me begin by offering you my personal love and deep concern regarding your state of health. Allow me to suggest that this is a spiritual attack, a spirit of infirmity, and that you need to be the focus of prayer and fasting by others for your healing and deliverance. You are a strategic weapon in the hands of God, and the devil would just love to continue to hinder you. You have always been there for everyone else. Now the Church needs to be there for you.
More Clarity on this Word for 2011
Second, thank you for this opportunity to help the Body of Christ by bringing some more clarity to my 2011 prophecy. Thanks to you, I have received virtually dozens and dozens of emails from very supportive Elijah List followers thanking me profusely for this timely “word in season.” The response has been incredible! Numerous pastors and ministers within this group have expressed their deepest gratitude to me and to you for addressing these volatile theological concerns with directness and honesty. They told me that the stand I made against these “doctrines of concern” through your website took real courage on both our parts.
Because of your love and commitment to the prophetic, many Believers have been helped through my 2011 prophecy. It is always my pleasure to cooperate with you each year at this time with my yearly word of the Lord. And, I believe this 2011 prophetic word will prove to be a pivotal prophetic word for you, your website, and the Body of Christ at large. Again, thanks my friend.
Below is my very best explanation of the critical phrase “at will” since you stated this was a major point of contention for some. I would suggest you insert this letter of explanation, that I have written below, as an introduction to the prophecy. I think it will REALLY help folks.
Your servant,
Denny Cramer
Dennis Cramer Ministries
Introduction
• What Exactly is Meant by the Phrase “At Will”?
I would like to add some clarity to explain my 2011 (global) prophecy, a “word in season” for the Body of Christ in every nation. Perhaps, the phrase “at will” that appears after a number of the “doctrines of concern” that I address in point three below, could be more clearly understood by the reader.
“At will” means a Believer makes a decision, on his own, to initiate or attempt to duplicate a particular sovereign, supernatural experience. The individual wants a particular supernatural experience to happen so badly, he will do anything (within his power) to make it happen – to force it, to duplicate or copy it, whether or not it is God’s sovereign will. Rather, a Believer should allow God to SOVEREIGNLY cause it to happen at His chosen time, as we see recorded in all similar Bible examples.
When a Believer unwisely exercises his (soulish) human will, outside of or in conflict with the sovereign will of God (anything contrary to the written Word of God, the Bible), he is producing a seemingly supernatural (source unclear) experience from his own will or “at will.” This is the meaning of “at will.” “At will” is self-will, and self-will can be sinful and can lead to all kinds of spiritual deception and questionable practices.
• The Question of Supernatural Sovereign Experiences “At Will”
Do I believe in Third Heaven experiences? Absolutely, I do. The Bible supports such sovereign experiences as in the example of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12. Do I believe in being physically transported? Absolutely, I do! By a sovereign act of God, Phillip was physically transported (Acts
from one location to another. So if it’s in the Bible I believe it! I believe it all! Amen!
However, there is a HUGE difference between God willing you to have a certain sovereign Bible experience (like Paul or Phillip), as opposed to you willing it or trying to make it happen, to duplicate it through mere human effort or merely through the exercising of your human or soulish will, in other words, “at will.” These Bible experiences were 100% sovereign. They did not happen because these individuals willed them into existence or willed them to happen. God and God alone initiated them – He and He alone willed them.
This is the very nature of a sovereign experience: God makes it happen when He wants, where He wants, and with whom He wants. Period! And they usually happened when the candidates or recipients least expected it. Why? Because these were sovereign events, not planned or initiated by man, but by God.
When discussing a sovereign experience there is a big difference between initiating versus cooperating. God INITIATES all sovereign experiences and the Believer COOPERATES with them. Mix the two, crisscross them, and this can lead to some real doctrinal confusion and counter-productive measures.
• It’s All About God’s Sovereignty
The critical issue with operating in the supernatural is: who is initiating what or who is “willing” what? Teaching Believers that by following certain steps, teachings, formulas, and/or merely exercising their own human wills, they can duplicate any sovereign supernatural experience – is dangerous and unscriptural.
One cannot go to Heaven like Paul or be transported physically like Phillip simply because they want to or because they feel like it (at will). Teachings like this often crossover into dangerous methods and techniques that resemble New Age, Mysticism, Spiritism or other occult manipulative practices. A Believer cannot and must not force, manipulate, or otherwise attempt to reproduce a sovereign supernatural Bible experience by merely following a method, a series of steps, or worst of all “willing it” to happen.
Whether we are discussing being translated in the spirit or transported physically, or any supernatural sovereign experience we read about in the Bible, the critical difference between whether it is God or not is who “willed” it to happen: Was it you or was it God? If you willed it to happen it ceases to be a sovereign, God ordained, supernatural, Bible experience, and you risk experiencing a counterfeit.
Below are the “Eleven Words for 2011″ with clarification from Dennis Cramer:
It is Time to Dust Off Your Bible!
Picture in your mind, if you will, the image of an unused, dust-covered Bible. Now picture in your mind that this same dust-covered Bible is your Bible! This is not a good image to be sure, especially for a Bible-believing Christian in 2011. Sadly, many Christians now read more books about the Bible then they do the Bible itself.
Consequently, many in the Church have gradually and somewhat unknowingly, become Biblically ignorant, unaware or stunted. And doctrinally speaking, anything goes. There is now wide-spread acceptance of “marginal to heretical” doctrines. Just 25 years ago individuals would have been thrown out of the Church if caught teaching these heresies. How did this happen?
Simply, we have become Biblically ignorant. We have not been diligent to feed on the unadulterated Word of God. We are at best malnourished, and in some cases, starving to death. Biblical ignorance is on the increase in the Church, even to epidemic levels! Like any form of “lack” created by ignorance which can lead to sickness, only the proper “intake,” or in these cases, only proper Biblical education can remedy it.
Warning: We Live in an Age of “Anything Goes” Theology! The Charismatic Church is in Big Trouble!
So, here is my 2011 prophetic “prescription” for this beautiful but Biblically challenged, even unhealthy, Bride.
1. Orthodoxy! I would like to prescribe a good healthy dose of the written Word of God, the Bible. The Church needs an immediate injection of the truth! We must all pray for the Church to return to the orthodoxy (traditional belief) of Scripture. This means a return to the proper reading, INTERPRETATION, and application of the Bible in our lives. There is a growing trend toward some really bad doctrine out there. And we, the Church, must put a stop to it! If we don’t, no one else will! The Church must begin to police herself against unorthodox (false) teaching and bizarre practices. You must reacquaint yourself with the Scriptures and know your Bible.
In 40 years of serving God, I have not heard so much bad doctrine preached from so-called “Bible-believing” Christians – specifically charismatic Christians.
2. Berea! We must pray for a “Berean Revival” in the Church – a revival which returns us all to our roots – our roots in the Word of God. In the Bible, the original Bereans were Believers who “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things be so.” There is a lot of doctrine currently in circulation in the charismatic Church that is highly questionable – even heretical.
Each Believer must begin to “search the Scriptures” for himself to discover whether what he is believing is Biblical or not (Acts 17:11). Stop unequivocally trusting ministers and their pulpits to always and completely preach the truth – some do, some do not. You need to search and know the Scriptures for yourself. If their teachings sound too good to be true – they very well may be! Know your Bible.
3. Preach the Word! (2 Timothy 4:2). It is time for the Church to return to her basic Bible beliefs (fundamental doctrines) and the core values these fundamental doctrines produce. Peripheral doctrines or beliefs are peripheral for a reason, and can lead to dangerous theologically positions and questionable practices. We must stop extracting obscure, vague, single, solitary verses out of context, and stop trying to make major “sound” doctrines out of them.
This “stretching of the truth” must stop. Some of our so-called “proof texts” do not prove what’s being preached at all. We are “twisting the Scriptures to our own destruction.” We must again major in major doctrine and minor in the minor ones. My prophetic word to all Pastors/Teachers for 2011 is simple: “Preach the Word!” Know your Bible.
Some examples of current doctrine circulating in the Church: You must believe me that I am NOT making this stuff up!
DOCTRINES of CONCERN:
• Open Theism: Teaches God is Not Sovereign = BAD DOCTRINE
Teaches that God does not always know the outcome of earthly events when man is involved – that man can actually catch God “off guard,” surprise Him, and alter His will. For example, it teaches that God did not know Adam was going to sin. Yet there are numerous verses that clearly teach God is sovereign and knew exactly what was going to happen and when it was going to happen. If God did not know that Adam was going to sin, then why was the Lamb slain from before the foundations of the world? (1 Peter 1:18-20). Additional proof texts: Ephesians 1:4, Psalm 139:4, Psalm 139:16, Isaiah 46:10, Ecclesiastes 3:11, 1 John 3:20, John 21:17.
If God is not omniscient, then He is not sovereign. If He is not sovereign, then He is not God. God is all-knowing: past, present, and future. Open theism is a dangerous teaching that under-mines the sovereignty, majesty, infinitude, knowledge, existence, and glory of God and exalts the nature and condition of man’s own free will. A god of open theism is not as knowledgeable or as ever-present as the true God of the Bible.
• Ultimate Reconciliation/Restitution of All Things = BAD DOCTRINE
Teaches that Hell will one day be emptied, that all of mankind (saved and unsaved) will live together eternally in Heaven, regardless of their actions while they lived on earth. This is an old heresy that pops up every fifty years or so. There is no Biblical basis for this very dangerous doctrine.
• The “Nefilin” Children Alive on Earth = BAD DOCTRINE
Teaches that there are currently living beings on the earth who are the distant offspring of the original “giants” conceived by angels and women mentioned in the book of Genesis. This is pure speculation. Recent books on the subject have caught our attention, but this topic was never supposed to be a major Bible doctrine. Some authors have taken extreme liberty and license to write about it. Again, it is pure speculation and could serve as a distraction from more important issues in the Church.
• Open Heaven/Spiritual Portals = BAD DOCTRINE
Teaches that we, as Christians, should be asking God to “rend the heavens” and open them to us so we can experience God’s power and presence. Actually, this is totally unnecessary since God, through Jesus Christ, has already fully opened the heavens to each and every Believer. Every Believer has been walking under the “Open Heaven” atmosphere from the moment they were born again. Hebrews calls it the “Throne of Grace” (Hebrews 4:16). This “Throne of Grace” in Heaven is already open and available 24/7 – to all Believers who access it in the name of Jesus. How? By faith.
• Third Heaven Experiences At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
See my introduction above.
• Going to Heaven At Will to Get Your Gifts = BAD DOCTRINE
See my introduction above. There is no Biblical record of any Believer having to go to Heaven to get any gift. This is a totally unnecessary spiritual exercise. The three listings of gifts in Romans, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians have all been in the Church for over two thousand years. They are not in Heaven, so why go there to get them? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have each deposited Their respective gifts in the Church here on earth. For 2,000 years, Christians have been receiving here ON EARTH from this great deposit of gifts. “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, ON EARTH, as it is in Heaven.” Amen!
• Cloud of Witnesses/Dead Saints = BAD DOCTRINE
Teaches that Christians should expect the intervention of dead saints in our daily lives. This entire deception is based on a terribly irresponsible interpretation of a single obscure verse in Hebrews 12:1. We do not need dead saints intervening in our lives. We have Jesus as our Mediator, the ONLY Mediator we need between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), and He is not dead. He is alive! Necromancy, that is communication with the dead (any dead), is forbidden in Scripture.
• Traveling in Time At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
I have been unable to find this in the Bible. Let alone doing it “at will.”
• Transporting Physically At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
See my introduction above.
• Over-Emphasis on Angels and Specifically Arc-Angels = BAD DOCTRINE
Yes, they are real. But an angelic visitation is a rare and precious event. Most Christians will never have an encounter with one. And it is extremely unlikely that a Christian will be visited by an arc angel. Michael and Gabriel were given specific, significant, world-changing tasks in the Scriptures. It is likely that they have more important things to do than to drop by your house for a visit!
• Going into Trances At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
See my introduction above.
• Trance Dancing = BAD DOCTRINE
I have been unable to find this in the Bible.
• Going to Hell to Discern Evil Spirits = BAD DOCTRINE
No one in the Bible ever had to go to Hell to discern a spirit. Why should we?
• Hyper-Grace: Christians Do Not Need to Repent of Sin = BAD DOCTRINE
The only Biblical response for sin is ALWAYS repentance for both the sinner and the saved. How else can a Believer be accountable for his sin except to repent of it? No form of grace removes the Believer’s responsibility to repent for his sin.
• Quick Restoration of Fallen Church Leaders = BAD DOCTRINE
Why should a fallen leader necessarily be restored back to his ministry, especially after numerous failures over the space of years? Sometimes fallen leaders should not be restored back to ministry at all, but back to finding a secular job, loving their spouse, and raising their kids. However, if it is decided that a fallen leader be restored back to his ministry, I am not against restoring that leader. I am however against restoring that leader too quickly.
• Divorce Among Christians without Consequences = BAD DOCTRINE
All of us are aware of the terrible increase of divorce among Christians. Yet, what troubles me more is the lack of consequences from these divorces. Covenant is very important to God. Divorce is not God’s best. Breaking the marriage covenant is a serious issue. Yet many Christians, and even ministers, never miss a step. One day they divorce and soon after they are back in the pulpit and/or often in a new marriage.
• The Bible Contains Cultural and Gender Biases = BAD DOCTRINE
No, it does not! I’ve actually been told by pastors that they have made decisions to counter the various biases that they perceive in the Bible. I was stunned! How can the Bible be inerrant, infallible, and contain biases and/or prejudices at the same time? It cannot! But some preach this from their pulpits, misrepresenting God’s Word, the Bible.
4. Seducing Spirits! (1 Timothy 4:1-4). There has been loosed on the Church for 2,000 years a literal army of demons whose sole task is to deceive the Church! Unfortunately, these deceiving, seducing spirits are enjoying some of their most successful efforts. Why?
The average Believer does not know His Bible. The Bible is absolute truth, forever settled in Heaven. It is our sword of the Spirit – two-edged and deadly. To be Bible-ignorant is to have no offensive weapon against our enemy satan. Our ONLY defense against our enemy is a proven offense. And our proven offense against this hoard of demons is the written Word of God, the Bible. Jesus wielded this same written Word-sword against satan in the wilderness with great results. So should you!
I hear the Church saying again, “DEVIL, IT IS WRITTEN!” It does not matter what you think, feel, sense, or even believe. It does not matter what experience you claim to have had, or how many trips to Heaven you claim to have made, or how many angels you know on a first name basis. The only thing that matters is what God said in His Word. Know your Bible.
5. The Devourer! (Malachi 3:11). WARNING: All non-tithing Believers are going to fall victim to a spirit called the “Devourer” unless they return to a systematic lifestyle of financial giving that the Bible calls tithes and offerings! This demonic entity, an actual living thing, will attach itself to the finances of any non-tithing Believer. However, for all faithful tithing Believers the results will be the opposite: God will rebuke this devourer for their sake, and they will enjoy the “open windows of Heaven” lifestyle promised for all who do not “rob” God. They will be a “blessed land” with showers of financial provision from above! Know your Bible.
6. Divorce! Some Believers will suffer the consequences of unwisely entering into unscriptural divorces. These divorces of convenience have angered God, bringing Him to place judgments upon some ministers and their ministries. We need to be reminded that God hates divorce. Know your Bible.
7. Deception! Many will willingly and increasingly enter into incorrect thinking. Hardcore deception will find a home in the Church in 2011 if we are not diligent to know and follow the Word of God. Remember these words from Scripture: “Be not deceived!” This is a command, and the responsibility of all Bible-believing Believers. Notice that deception is a choice! We must choose not to be deceived in 2011. How? Know your Bible!
8. Prophets! As a Prophet, Jesus Christ enjoyed only a very brief season of popularity, followed by His crucifixion as a falsely convicted criminal. Many prophets will suffer the same fate in 2011. I fear that the season of popularity for many prophets is over. As James wrote, “As an example of SUFFERING, take the prophets.” Know your Bible.
9. Underground! An exciting and even more powerful supernatural “underground Church” will emerge in 2011. The true Church is much smaller than many think it is. And true apostles and prophets will emerge within this true underground Church. Essentially, a nameless and faceless core, these foundational ministries will re-direct their efforts away from their so called networks, and will devote themselves to returning to the local Church level where their greatest effect and spiritual impact on the Body of Christ will be realized. Know your Bible.
10. Prize! God gave me this verse for literally every Believer worldwide for 2011. “I press toward the goal (in 2011) for the PRIZE of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” Remember that you have been apprehended by God, for God. Let’s all forget about those things that are behind, and reach forward (in 2011) for those things which are ahead. There is an eternal prize awaiting you! Know your Bible.
11. Pearl! Jesus Christ is the Pearl of great price. He is your ultimate reward for 2011. He is your Master and you serve Him and Him alone for 2011! Make 2011 the year in which you live for Him again without reservation. It is time to sell everything (figuratively speaking) and purchase that Pearl of great price in 2011 and beyond! Amen! Know your Bible.
Beloved, I think you get my point: Know your Bible!
Hope this helps,
Dennis Cramer
Dennis Cramer Ministries
Email: denniscramer1@comcast.net
Go to my website, “Dennis Cramer Ministries,” and check out a new and exciting prophetic service that I am now offering. It has proven to be life changing for many! Click on “Prophetic Consultations” on my homepage tabs.
Dennis Cramer’s Itinerary:
Note: Events are subject to change at the ministry’s discretion. We suggest you always check first with the event contact listed here and/or directly visit their website for latest updates on each event.
January 16, 2011 (9am, 11am, 6pm)
Lighthouse Fellowship
3483 Rte 89, South Butler NY 13154
Contact: 315-365-3284
February 5-6, 2011 (Sat 10am & 7pm; Sun 6pm)
Gateway Christian Fellowship
129 Bull Hill Lane, West Haven, CT 06516
Contact: 203-934-0880
February 12, 2011 (9:30am – 4:30pm)
One day express School of Prophecy
Friendship Church
384 Colonel Ledyard Highway, Ledyard, CT 06339
Contact: 860-572-7915 “
Cramer has shown that he too needs to know his bible better for his own bad doctrine. But I couldn’t agree more that every Christian needs to know their bible better, albeit for a different reason. They need to know about its scandalous origins. It’s ghost writers, the hundreds of gospels and letters that didn’t make it in. The interpolations that did. They need to know that much of the writings were borrowed from earlier pagan sources and that archaeology has proven the bible to be false as an historical record. That the bible is innumerably inconsistent, containing conflicting information and erroneous facts of nature. They need to know that the only reason it has managed to flourish through the centuries is not because it is the inspired word of a divine being, but because it has been forced upon billions both through brainwashing and through violence.
Yes, Mr. Cramer, most need to know their bible better, for
“A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism” -Don Morgan
I’m sure Rick Joyner is busily preparing a video rebuttal for this. If this were to be taken as true he’d have to shutter his entire facility since this perfectly describes Morningstar, Bob Jones, and Todd Bentley’s modus operandi. Things are about to get interesting I think…
I think we all know how this works…
When a word of the Lord doesn’t make sense or is extremely offensive to “the body”, then change it to mean what you would like it to say and make sure to remove anything that causes a stir because the last thing the church needs is division and strife…
ROTFLMAO
Sometimes the details of charismatic ceromonies seem to be more concerned for the acts of ceromonies. In the meantime broken hearts can get lost in the details of the acts of the ceromonies. A simple contrite heart need not go any further than at the foot of Jesus’ cross, if this is who they seek.
The alluring effects of some of these meetings, to me are very distracting, and does take away from the pure meaning of The Bible.
I’m in the middle of researching various points within this prophecy. Cramer has visited the church I currently attend a few times, so I have a little bit of interest.
He also does a “School of Prophecy” sometimes, at various churches (he’s not the only one who does this, from what I understand). That in and of itself is not Biblical. Why should someone need to pay hundreds of dollars to learn how to prophesy “correctly” when God can show one how to do so for FREE (all one needs to do is ask)? Really, it’s no better than Simon in Acts 8 asking the disciples/apostles to sell him their “secret”. And, as you’ve pointed out, his prophecies have been wrong in the past…which means he is a FALSE PROPHET.
“and does take away from the pure meaning of The Bible”
Susan, what exactly is the “pure meaning of the Bible”?
Tim,
I don’t really care to debate with you about your question. I made a commit on The Bible and here is my answer. To lend you some insight as to why I said “pure” I will let you know. A verse in The King James Bible version, Pslams 119:140 is just one of them, and will explain for itself. You will need to search it’s root, then you may answer your own concern as to it’s meaning. Other than that, it’s useless for you or me to go any further than that. Take care.
Susan
Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. (AKGV)
Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. [Peter 3:15]
I agree that it’s useless for you to go any further.
When Galileo looked through a telescope, he didn’t see Heaven as predicted by the bishops, instead he saw the Earth and planets circling the sun. The Catholic bishops were so infuriated at Galileo they had him imprisoned. He destroyed ideas fundamental to their religion. Science forced our retreat from a real, physical God to a spiritual, supernatural God. Every time science explains something, God gets less real, more spiritual. This is why you have NO answers Susan. Critical scholarship is about a rational, reasoned interpretation of facts. God and the supernatural, that’s theology. Cramer can look forever for answers in the bible. Christianity is an ancient pagan religion. Superposition has no answers. Just questions.
cramer does not even know the bible: “The Bible is absolute truth, forever settled in Heaven. It is our sword of the Spirit – two-edged and deadly. ”
in the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with god, and the logos was god.
i do not know what logos is but it is surely NOT the scriptures. my best guess based on the “ology” suffix in that logos is the science or explanation of everything. so logos is the absolute truth.
the sword of the spirit is the rhema of god. i do not know what rhema it is but is not the logos, otherwise the bible would use these words interchangeably, e.g. “in the beginning was the rhema, and the rhema was with god and the rhema was god.
let us keep our searching the scriptures literal folks. if we are serious about studying the scriptures, let us study the original languages.
did holy men of god speak or write as they were moved or inspired by the holy ghost?
because scriptures are writings. the countless denominations show the many interpretations of the scriptures. (when i walk the streets and am moved to help someone, is it god the holy spirit who is moving or inspiring me? since i see through a glass darkly, 99% of the time i have to guess or follow my instincts as to what to do rather than execute clear instructions on exactly how to help.)
the revelation=unveiling of jesus christ to john the apostle. the book of revelation is anything but clear unveiling. c’mom, it too, like the many denominations, has many interpretations. if you ask me, it is an encrypted book of horrors.
Bless you Susan, it’s good to see you again.
It would be good if we begin to see the fruits of repentance and evidence that Dennis Cramer is growing in grace and in understanding of the scriptures. For example, if we were to see the “Prophetic Consultations” tab removed from his website. But I hope that this is the beginning of this man waking up from his sleep, and pray he will come to realize that we need a cross to be able to receive understanding of the scriptures. The bible without a cross is just a religion.
Therese,
It’s good to see you again too.
The more I see these types movements today, the more I find myself wanting to stand back like an observer. Sometimes I wonder what’s coming through the door next. Just the term “Prophetic Consultations” makes me stop in my tracks.
The daily battles a christian faces are many and the struggle to hold on is great, so my only refuge is at the foot of the cross. Like that old hymm, “What A Friend We Have In Jesus”, it really is “a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer.”
I’m of the opinion that certain movements out there today are presented in a way that looks good on the outside, but really they may just turn out to be a selfindulgence and can do more harm than any good.
Rick,
Thank you for addressing the issue with Dennis Cramer’s 2011 prophecy. Good work.
Steve Shultz is the founder and publisher of The Elijah List, and the head-man of damage control central. When his self-appointed prophets make a “mistake,” Shultz springs into action on their behalf with smooth-talking excuses and quick-witted clarifications. After all, in order for The Elijah List to survive, its financial campers must be made to feel happy, unconfused, and unoffended.
Dennis Cramer is the founder and president of Dennis Cramer Ministries, and a regular contributor to The Elijah List. He fancies himself as a “true prophet to the nations” and a “seasoned seer,” who claims to be in great demand both here in the U.S. and overseas ( http://www.denniscramer.com/ ).
Of Dennis Cramer’s prophetic ability, Steve Shultz writes:
“I’ve known Dennis Cramer since the early days of the ElijahList. The prophetic in him just keeps getting better and better and more and more accurate. Even James Goll told me awhile ago that Dennis Cramer’s gift just keeps getting higher in accuracy. And this was a few years ago. James probably doesn’t even remember saying it, but I DO! I would read carefully what Dennis Cramer says here. He’s ‘on the mark.’” [ http://elijahlist.com/words/display_word/7560 ]
Essentially, Steve Shultz is saying that, over time, modern-day prophets proceed from amateur to professional. Not so with the true Biblical prophets. They were right on target, 100% of the time, when they prophesied.
Concerning Dennis Cramer’s 2011 prophecy and the pulling of it thereof, Steve Shultz writes in part that,
“There was a huge number of people who were unclear on a few issues with Dennis Cramer’s word from the Lord and they wrote to us about it. There was likely an equal number of people who are upset with us for TEMPORARILY pulling Dennis Cramer’s word for clarification. This has happened before when a word went out and people didn’t quite understand what was being said.
“Many people LOVED the word and understood it from the start. Yet many others were confused. It was simply “many” on both sides. Since the response was so intense, we pulled it quickly. I just got off the phone with Dennis Cramer to speak to him about a clarification of the word. He is happy to do it but time is not on his side. We will receive it Friday. When we get it, we’ll send it out ASAP. I don’t know if we’ll have his clarification in time to send it to you on Friday, but if not we’ll get it out during the weekend.
“Let me explain that Dennis Cramer also assured me that he had NO specific ministry or minister in mind when he wrote his word.” [ http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/9498 ]
Despite what Steve Shultz said and did, Dennis Cramer’s words for 2011 cite much of what Christians have warned about for years. No doubt that Cramer upset and offended many of The Elijah List supporters, and stepped on the toes of a few false prophets and false teachers The Elijah List promotes.
But despite the truths that Dennis Cramer shared, he has established himself a false prophet, as this article from February 2007 proves ( http://www.christianresearchservice.com/DennisCramer1.htm ).
Finally, let us not forget the infamous words of the world’s most prolific hyper-heretic and false teacher who, once again, asserted his hyper-hypocrisy when he stated in part that,
“I’m gonna be very bold with you. There was a so-called revival recently in Florida that was NOT a true revival; that was NOT a move of God, and THOUSANDS of people flew from all over the world believing God is in it!” [Benny Hinn, "Freedom From Deception," October 2008, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHIUX2THGa8&feature=related ]
See also “Benny Hinn Speaks Out Against the Florida Revival: Word-for-Word Transcript” at http://www.christianresearchservice.com/BHinn39.htm
In time, we may witness an increase of false prophets speaking out publicly against false prophets–hypocrites to hypocrites. Indeed, money is tight, and the competition for dollars, power, and popularity is fierce.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Matthew 23:27-28).
Bud Press
Pingback: Dennis Cramer Post on Elijah List « Truthspeaker’s Weblog
“The bible without a cross is just a religion.”
The bible ‘with’ a cross is….just another book.
amen Susan, that hits the nail on the head – I think “self-indulgence” is just the right word – and standing back, well back, is the best thing to do. At the end of the day, Jesus is not found where the crowds are running to.
yet another version in Charisma Magazine. Looks a lot like the revision with the
“=bad dictine” taken out. Probably edited by Charisma.
http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/prophetic-insight/30000-its-time-to-dust-off-your-bible
See also
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/01/who-can-ascend-into-heaven-at-will.html
There should be no question that the references to “at will,” trance dancing and Nephilium are directly pertaining to Patty Cocking.
dictine = doctrine
easy mistake to make on the benny doctrine blog
Susan …”certain movements out there today are presented in a way that looks good on the outside, but really they may just turn out to be a selfindulgence and can do more harm than any good.”
I agree. Personally I haven’t seen much persecution of Christians in North America, but have noticed my fair share of “movements” come and go. The damage inflicted to Christianity arises mainly from inside. This absorbing juxtaposition leads many to delve deep into the roots of the faith – to determine if answers to the pathetic condition and partition within the church are to be found.
Trying to comprehend situations like the “Cramer inquisition” often reveals a connotation that theologians, historians and scientists have been trying to propagate for hundreds of years. Christianity functions poorly because it’s a fictitious creed. The proof is readily available to Christians of every stripe universally. They are simply too busy kneeling at the foot of a metaphorical cross to bother.
It is one thing to be an atheist, and mind your own business. God will deal with you at His appointed time. But to actively campaign against God and attempt to turn people away from Him invites His wrath and judgment.
Psalm 14:1 warns that “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; there is no one who does good.”
In John 8:24, Jesus warned, “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus Christ is the only hope for the atheist:
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/Road_to_Salvation.htm
Bud Press
Thanks Bud …
Matthew 5:22 suggests you chose your words more carefully.
Christians aren’t always unperturbed having their ecumenical pews communal with individuals who question their sacred canon. It must be extremely intimidating for you. Your unsubstantiated and wearisome threats of gods wrath, besides being off topic, are the only opinions you have offered.
My point in the tread was the poor functionality of Christianity because of its fictitious roots.
Bod wrote, “But to actively campaign against God and attempt to turn people away from Him invites His wrath and judgment”
Bud, all we are doing is asking people to examine the truth that is before them and get their heads out of the sand. You know, step back from the forest so you can actually see it for what it’s worth…
Encouraging others to seek “the whole” truth, versus actively campaigning against a belief are two completely different things and perhaps you haven’t come to understand this yet. Also, I am an ex-pastor and ex-Christian who was once a sincere apologist but when I began to ask the hard questions and not quit until I got REAL answers, that is when I realized the falseness of Christianity.
A true apologist will become one of two things:
1. a superstar miracle worker as Jesus promised
or
2. a non-believer who doesn’t refuse to look at truth when it’s presented for what it is.
AtheistAtBirth:
Odd that you claim to be an atheist, yet you are quick to use Scripture in an attempt to make a point.
Nonetheless, I am not a bit perturbed or intimidated by your comments. I simply shared with you what God’s written word says about atheists and anyone who chooses to deny Jesus Christ.
Over the years I have taken time to talk to and share Jesus Christ with atheists. I listened intently to what they had to say, and the intellectual, but frivolous excuses they use to deny the existence of God and draw the innocent and unwary into their world of self-imposed confusion and upside-down mumbo-jumbo.
Yet, each time I have come away confident that God exists, stronger in my faith, and that atheists do not have a leg to stand on.
While you have the freedom to believe that Christianity has “fictitious roots,” I promise you, I give you my word that you will see Jesus Christ–either coming for you in the clouds (as a believer), or judging you prior to casting you into the eternal lake of fire (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Revelation 20:11-15).
Therefore, when and if the time comes that you want to know the truth, I will be glad to talk to you.
In Christian love,
Bud Press
Tim:
What “truth” are we to “examine”? Your “truth” or God’s truth? When I step back from the forest I see trees. What do you see?
As with many atheists I have talked to, it appears that you bumped into someone who curled your ears with questions that scared your socks off. From there, the questions burned in your mind until you made the decision to believe what man says over what God teaches in His written word–the Bible. Then, you made the decision to toss Jesus out like yesterday’s trash.
Sadly, you openly admit that you are an “ex-pastor and ex-Christian who was once a sincere apologist,” which means that during your tenure of playing Christian, you paid lip-service to Jesus Christ and NEVER knew Him as Lord and Savior (Matthew 15:7-9).
Have I been presented with difficult questions and been scared? Yes. Did I walk around in La-La Land depressed and in tears? No. Did I contemplate tossing everything out and saying, “The heck with it?!” No. I did my homework, dug deep and found answers to the questions, and relied on God’s written word for my ultimate and final authority.
And the Lord blessed my efforts, strengthened my faith, and drew me closer to Him.
Hey, we know that evolution is a farce. We know that cultic, New Age, and heretical movements worship a false “Jesus” (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians chapter 11), and we know that there is only one Jesus Christ, who was and is God Himself in human form, who died on the cross, was buried and resurrected, and who will return (1 Corinthians chapter 15).
So, we can choose to be scared and take the word of those who have used their feeble brains to decide that there is no God and that Christianity is a waste of time, OR, we can accept the overwhelming fact that God does exist, that He created us to worship Him, and that the King of kings and the Lord of lords loved us enough to suffer and die for us–so that we can be with Him for eternity.
Tim, as with AtheistAtBirth, I love you in Christ enough to share the truth. If, by chance, you are searching for truth, I will be glad to talk with you. But please be prepared: I will not compromise my belief in Jesus Christ to make you feel good, nor will I say we will have to “agree to disagree.” Jesus didn’t say it, nor will I.
By the way, a true Christian apologist will pray and study his Bible on a daily basis, remain steadfast in Christ, and defend the faith–once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).
In Christian love,
Bud Press
Bud, you obviously have no clue of who I am and what I have done.
I was never “scared” as you say, because when I was a believer, apparently god had not given me the spirit of fear.
Here’s a simple test… You claim to know Jesus and you claim that you know the “truth”. I would challenge you to therefore prove to me that he is real. He is the one who said you can drink poison and live, you can be bitten by snakes and live, you will perform greater miracles than he. In order for you to prove this to me, you would either have to do one of the three things above and provide me with a video of this and other credible witnesses who will attest that you have done any of these and lived. According to his word, you should be able to do this time and time again. As well, don’t bother telling me that you shouldn’t tempt god because the bible says you shouldn’t, because that’s not what you’re doing. On the contrary, you are proving god to me, that’s quite different than tempting him.
As well, like I did at one time as a Christian and continue to do as an atheist, you seem to be able to point out those who teach false doctrine but I would challenge you, again like I tried to find, one single person you can point to who has been “perfected” as the bible claims they will be. Who is alive today, that I can pick up the phone and call, who can show me their perfection? I think you will find the same answer I did, there are none. Again, this is contrary to the word because according to the new testament, those that are his, don’t sin.
Bud, there is nothing you could ever tell me that would convince me that either Jesus or the god of the bible is real. Show me the proof. I can prove to you that everything around me is real, simply by showing it to you. I am amazed at how long people will go through life believing in something that can’t be seen or proven.
Also, when I step out of the forest, I don’t just see trees, I see a whole world that needs to be explored. I see so many things that I have never seen before and because of this, I have no desire to go back into the only realm I know, which is among a lot of fallen dead oaks. I am not the least bit uncomfortable in my new environment, and I am glad that now I see the light in its entirety, not through the shadows of a bunch of tall twigs fighting for survival.
You may choose to go back into the forest to prove bigfoot exists, since it’s the environment you seem to be comfortable with, but for me, I will enjoy everything this world has to offer to its fullest, without regret. Does that mean I am now living an immoral life? Not at all, I’m simply living a life that is no longer dependent on pleasing the eye in the sky, but rather helpful and pleasing to those around me, in the here and now, in a place called “reality”.
For now I’ll leave you with some quotes to ponder, whilst I make plans about my one-way trip to hell.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians “not really a Christian” were to vanish, there’d be no Christians left. – Anonymous
“I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing”. – Douglas Adams
Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains. – Robert G. Ingersoll
The inspiration of the bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it. – Robert G. Ingersoll
Bud …
With respect …
To disagree while in receipt of full disclosure of the subject may be a sign of vital intellectuality, to do so out of ignorance is an abomination.
Standard fare for Christians when faced with a direct challenge, or questions they cannot, or will not answer is to threaten with gods wrath and punishment, which you resort to more often than far less gifted intellects on this blog. I thought better of you at first to stoop to that level of childishness, so save your breath for uninformed and susceptible followers to dumbfound with your fear tactics. I have been unsuccessfully threatened dozens of times with the same infantile temper tantrums. Unlike many of your followers I have a working knowledge of what your scriptures say about “gods” actions or lack thereof. And I say it’s all a collection of superstitious and primitive trash. The god described in the bible is a box of rocks, when it comes to right exploit or just simple acumen.
Authors of ancient history today, of course, can only write from indirect observation in a time far removed from their endeavor. But a valid historian’s own writing gets cited with sources that trace to the subject matter itself, or to eyewitnesses and artifacts. In the case of your Jesus no one has the slightest physical evidence of his works neither do any contemporary historians (eyewitnesses) support his story. There is nothing more fraudulent, mythical or allegorical than the New testament, and your calls for my execution based on scripture, is tantamount to self worship and playing god. Move over Jesus – Bud is about to take the throne.
We live in a world where many people believe in demons, UFOs, ghosts, or monsters and an innumerable number of fantasies assumed as actuality, taken from nothing but belief and hearsay. It derives from these reasons why hearsay cannot serve as high-quality evidence, and the same reasoning must go against the claims of a historical Jesus or any other historical person. Before you tell me of his wonder and charm, you will first have to prove to me that Jesus ever existed.
Please don’t give me the FAITH argument!!!!
Disappointingly yours,
H
atheist, humans live by faith every day. it’s called trust. you trust people. we christians just trust God first and foremost.
ihavethesamefeeling
Thank you for that. Now go away.
There is a verse in Rev. 19:10, that John describes as the “testimony of Jesus”. It also explains that Jesus is the “Spirit of Prophecy”.
Christian’s are taught to testify about Jesus in word and deed. Bottomline is a christian needs to commit to Jesus’ work on earth. In the NT, Jesus is shown as God’s word in flesh. More times than not, Jesus refers to the “Torah” and Himself while on this earth. So, he lets us see that He is the scripture.
The “Spirit of Prophey” is an action, putting forth God’s word at work, home, in our neighborhoods, friends, etc. Jesus sets us apart. Faithful Jews followed through with what is called “Mitzvot”. This is the action of the Torah, about the love of God.
To me there are not any mystic prophecies about Jesus. Just the simple action of His love and a life dedicated to do His will. No matter what the future holds for us, we can rest assure we have God’s love.
I pray I’ve done the Jewish Heritage justice with this explaination. Because it is about their pure devotion and love for God, that we still have scripture, for Jew and Gentile alike.
ihavethesamefeeling…”humans live by faith every day. it’s called trust. you trust people. we christians just trust God first and foremost.”
it is not quite that simple: there is trial and error and frustration involved in learning to trust.
Tim and AtheistAtBirth:
Human nature dictates that if we dislike something we avoid it; not so with most of the atheists I have talked to. They are forever downplaying the existence of God, yet they point to the Bible and quote from it.
I am thankful to have been given the opportunity to share my faith and beliefs with you, but it is not I who can convince you of the reality of God, Jesus Christ, salvation, and eternal life. That task is reserved for God, for He is the One who draws the lost to Him. He is the only One who can soften a hardened heart.
I have read your comments carefully, and have concluded that the both of you suffer from an acute case of “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up.” At the same time, you have given the readers a rare glimpse into the complicated mindset of an atheist. As for me, your words have fallen on deaf ears. Your efforts were a tremendous waste of time, because as strong as you are in your denial of God, I am equally as strong in my faith in God.
The existence of God has been denied for thousands of years. Efforts to destroy God’s written word and eliminate it from the face of the earth have failed miserably. God is still there. He is alive and active in the hearts and minds of those who believe. He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. Nothing escapes his watchful eyes. Nothing happens unless He allows it to happen. This is God’s universe. He made the rules and guidelines.
God created you to worship Him. He provides the very air you breathe. And, despite your hatred of God and Christianity, God is patient and willing to forgive all who come to Him by faith.
My faith is not blind, it is founded on fact. The historical evidence for Jesus Christ alone is overwhelming, not to mention the evidence for the Bible–which continues to be discovered on a regular basis. But, again, it is not up to me to convince you of these truths. I can reach out to you in love and steer you in the right direction, but I can’t zap your minds, soften your hardened hearts, and save you. That is within God’s sovereignty.
Finally, IF you are right and I am wrong, then nothing is lost. When we die we will simply decay away or poof out of existence. However, if I am right (and I am), I will go to be with the Lord in heaven. You, on the other hand, will spend your eternity totally separated from God, and will repeat to yourselves, “I wish I had listened” over and over again.
Tim and AtheistAtBirth, thank you for providing me with the opportunity to share my faith with you. While this will be my final post to you on this blog, I will pray for you and encourage other Christians to do the same.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press
Bud …
Like Saul of Tarsus (?????) in Acts 9 – breathing out murderous threats against the saints, your initial response to me left me anticipating being carried screaming across the River Acheron. This amusing and Hellacious tone continued throughout your posts. Then in a work of astonishing perpendicular logic, you become critical of my references to the bible as if I had no authorization to quote its sacred text.
You argue that facts form the base of your faith – but present not one.
You assert that “overwhelming evidence exists” for the existence of Jesus, but proffer not a single evidence based statement in support.
You resort again to oblique threats of “Nothing escapes his watchful eyes” which is the condensation of your arguments.
You claim “God created you to worship Him” but offer no corroboration.
You then suggest “He provides the very air you breathe,” An unsupported statement.
You then say “Finally, IF you are right and I am wrong, then nothing is lost,” not realizing Pascal’s Wager assumes that one can consciously decide. Critics argue that they cannot do this, and therefore Pascal’s Wager could only ever be an argument for feigning belief in God. In addition, an omniscient god would presumably see through the deception.
And finally – realizing you have no argument, no facts, no material, no information, nothing tangible – you leave the dialogue with this injunction:
“ you have given the readers a rare glimpse into the complicated mindset of an atheist.”
And what therefore, are we to make of the “mind of the believer”?
“rare glimpse into the complicated mind of an atheist?”….rather arrogant and pompus
Great article and comments. Do you mind if I can get permission to publish this document on our blog here: http://www.signposts02.wordpress.com?
There is a large Australian following of the ElijahList.
Thanks.
S&P
Sure, help yourself, just attribute.:^)
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My 7 Years Working for the Elijah List – By kevinkleint
http://www.zionfire.org/elijah-list-1/
Re: atheists and back-to-the-pigpen-ers/marina etc. I have to laugh at the immature rants reprobates make ie “Galileo saw the Earth and planets circling the sun”. How ?
I suppose he had an OBE or was merely demon-owned. I also laugh at the satellite photos that reveal the true shape of earth. Flat disk, with the antarctic ice mountains encircling the whole, JUST AS THE UN FLAG REVEALS.
Pythagoran geometry proves the true distance to the sun and moon.
The sun and moon rise and set. Get over (yourselves) it.
NASA is 100% disinfo/masonic.
God will roll up the sky like a venetian blind and all shall see Him!
Eternity is so long, hell is so horrible. Why anyone would want to go there amazes me.
————–
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
———–
To those who say the Bible is corrupted, I say yes, Enoch was originally in there, while “Esther” aka Ashtar and Song of “Solomon” was not.
God allowed that to see who would seek Him and not liar preachers/telescamvangelists! Look at the crap “Dr.” (he has no phd) Eugene Peterson (and ghostwriters team) churn out.