In my opinion, despite all the good deeds that might happen inside the machine, in order to measure a church’s worth, one must also take into consideration the souls, the people that church has bruised.
So many wrote that they’ve pretty much given up on the church. And that might be true. But in many instances, the church gave up on them. We, members of the universal church of Christ, need to stand up and speak out on behalf of the victims of spiritual abuse. All too often, because of fear or because of disbelief or because “the church must have had their reasons,” we ignore and devalue the stories of hurting people. Sure, sometimes a person’s story might turn out to be farfetched. But that is an excuse we have used for far too long. That is how abuse continues to occur inside the walls of churches.
Church, the truth is, sometimes our establishments, our rules, our hoops and hurdles, our fixes, and our leadership are abusing people, good people, people who are not being heard or listened to, people like you and me, people who will try to experience life at another church but will likely fail, people who might not trust you at first, people who are cynical and skeptic, people who are dying inside looking for somebody to shine a light on their story, their situation, their pain.
I tweeted last night that, it seems to me that far too many lost get found and then they get effed up. Effed up in a variety of ways. And that’s not amazing grace.
That’s a disgrace that each of us, every congregation, every member of a church staff, and every layperson can help remedy.
We begin by listening. And giving those who have been spiritually abused an opportunity to tell their story. Because only when we have the freedom to share, can we begin to walk on a path toward being free.
Let’s help people get free.
Matthew Paul Turner: Spiritual Abuse Must Stop
If people are so silly as to submit themselves to this nonsense then what more can be said?
I don’t believe most people who go to Mars Hill understand ‘outsiders’ or ‘formers’ who are warning about authoritarianism (men more important than women, clergy more important than congregation, insiders more important than outsiders) the abuses of shepherding etc.
People probably go because they like Driscoll, they like their community groups, they like the structure of their ‘contracts’, and criticism of Driscoll is perceived as criticism of them. I doubt they’ve thought through the absolute power structure, the franchising/marketing, absolutism of leadership, emphasis on youth and ‘numbers’, the lack of accountability, the historical abuses of Calvinism morphing into neo-Calvinism.
Mars Hill has been built around it’s leader and people molded into the image of the leader.
Many have and will wake up and move on as they mature, and I hope they are able to without spiritual harm. It’s going to take time for Mars Hill to go the way of SGM and other neo-Calvinist groups which fade under their own polity/doctrinal errors.
Hi,
I appreciate the sentiment that fjc gives, but it is very difficult when people are in the middle of their church community, their spiritual family, to just catch on. When you are in certain church cultures, if you tow the line, then everything is okay. But if something goes wonkey and you are in the middle of it, then you become the problem! People just don’t get it at first. Hindsight is always the best sight.
It is so unfortunate that Christians learn about their ‘church culture’ the hard way. People experience spiritual abuse on a regular basis. People are devastated by it.
Check out my website: http://www.ChurchExiters.com
My book is: ‘Spiritual Abuse Recovery: Dynamic Research on Finding a Place of Wholeness’. I trust that my research and the accounts of those wounded in the church will be a huge insight into this dysfunction in the church.
One more thought. A number of years ago someone told me about Mars Hill. My pal in WA and I went there one Sunday. It was an appealing atmosphere with the low lights, fewer distractions, lots of young families, and fairly good preaching. At first glance, everything looked in place and fairly welcoming to the newcomer.
So, when you hear about people being wounded through ‘the system’, one’s first thought is, well, must be they’re fault cuz I’ve been there and it ‘looked’ okay to me.
Since I have done my doctoral research on this topic and continue to hear disheartening stories from people near and far, you can bet that just going once to a church, or even staying for awhile, does not necessary give you an understanding of what goes on behind the scenes.
Hearing stories about the wounded needs to be checked out and followed up. Who will, at least, listen to their stories before making a judgment??
I feel the real issue is that at some point, perhaps because of fear of being ostrasized, some people stop thinking for themselves and questioning things that need to be challenged.
This is when abuse happens-whether it be spiritual, financial, physical, or all three. Church leaders need to be challenged as much or more than they need to be followed.
The church is the only army that shoots their wounded. I am appalled by the recent blogs I have read about Mars Hill. It’s obvious to me that this college kid should have been embraced and loved, forgiven (maybe not by the fiance) but by everyone else, and his word of repentance taken. Not harassed, threatened, belittled, judged, and publicly flogged. Oh, and last time I checked, it takes two people to have sex. And he’s not required by God’s laws to throw out his entire romantic history for the world to judge. Everybody makes mistakes. If this church really loved him they would have taken him at his word that he was sorry, and not treated him like a piece of dirt under their self righteous, controlling shoes. I’ve heard bad things about Mars Hill before. This is not the first horror story that has come to my attention. I hope this kid can recover and remember he has his whole life ahead of him with family and friends that really do love him, and will never stop, no matter what.
Hopefully Mark’s response is satisfactory. Security volunteers are held to a much higher standard, and rightfully so. Some of our members are former prostitutes, and need protection from people from their former lives. Security teams protect them, as well as children in our children’s ministry. As members, we are called to love Andrew, but also to offer a safe haven for those most vulnerable to young men struggling with secret sexual addictions. I too have signed the contract and gone through the discipline process, for secret extramarital consensual sexual sin with an adult – my leadership pastor was very gracious and patient throughout the process, and I was restored with unconditional love. I was also encouraged to date again after a period of reflection. However harsh it may seem, a purpose of the membership contract is to weed out pedophiles and sex addicts from serving in that capacity, and the proposed agreement to abstain from dating women FOR A SEASON, NOT FOREVER, was to allow him to get the help he needs, and was completely reasonable, given the circumstances. Joanna, there is a huge difference between “I’m sorry,” and “I’m sorry I got caught.”
@a member: who are you to say that that is what Andrew is saying? The “help” offered by Mars Hill was NOT helpful, NOT reasonable, NOT biblical. It was oppressive, unrealistic, controlling, and NOT of the Spirit. Read the Words and you’ll find that we are instructed to restore people gently, and that mercy triumphs over judgment.
It’s not unreasonable or unattainable or overly oppressive, I know because I’ve done it too (to protect both myself and other members so I could get my act together, and I’m saying this as a woman). Yes, we are to be merciful… not only to Andrew, but also to the members and their children that security teams protect. The bible DOES tell us to judge others within the church. The membership contract he signed was clear cut, and was not the complex I-Tunes -like contract that he claims it was. In addition, he got reminded almost every Sunday while serving WHO he was serving and protecting, and WHY it’s important that our women, especially those who have been subject to repeated sexual objectification and abuse, trust that those who protect them from people in their past respect them as sisters and aren’t constantly imagining them naked. Yes, we forgive, but there are consequences for the sin, and a truly repentant person would realize this. Here’s an example: suppose I had someone confess to me that they struggle with lustful thoughts about children, and that person serves in children’s ministry. And that person asked me to forgive and instantly forget and serve in children’s ministry again the next Sunday. I forgive, but if that person asked to immediately start serving again in children’s ministry, I’d naturally question whether or not he was truly repentant if he didn’t seek help and accountability and desire to stay away from the children’s ministry and children in general until he learned to overcome this secret longing. There are also two kinds of lies that we teacha about at Mars Hill — telling the truth and telling the half truth (such as subtle blameshifting to the women as Adam did). Also notice that Mars Hill isn’t naming him to allow him a chance to truly repent. Also notice that Matthew Paul Turner is strangely silent about his efforts to get the other side of the story before blasting Mars Hill and Mark all over the internet, which isn’t godly either (Mark wasn’t even involved in this case!). He was wrong about thinking that Mark wouldn’t respond at all to the accusations. How do you know he’s not wrong in his interpretations of the events that happened with Andrew, whom I know personally? Asking Andrew to write down all the names of all the women he’s been sexually involved in, especially if he was caught on numerous occasions telling half truths, has a very practical point in accountability — when it comes to spreading uncurable venereal disease and getting tested for the spread of said diseases and warning other women he’s been with and holding him accountable to that (which, by the way, don’t require actual penetration to spread). Notice he only confessed to his community group leader when he realized that his fiance was going to confess. By the way, another reason MHC isn’t being too publicly detailed about their side has a very MERCIFUL biblical reason — to shield his fiance and the girl at his community college from potential further public humilation and questioning. That’s the Mars Hill Culture. You protect the women. How do you know Andrew didn’t know this and was using that fact to his advantage, especially as he was reminded of this every Sunday before he put on that security jacket? That sounds unloving to me on Andrew’s part.
In no way was I condoning Andrew’s actions, as you seem to insinuate. And good grief, you paint men with a broad brush stroke, always imagining women naked. You’re missing the bigger picture here: Andrew was not alone in his struggle, true enough. But he fell, he repented, he asked for forgiveness AND accountability, and instead was prescribed a laundry list of unreasonable and oppressive mandates by his leadership, who did not genuinely value or desire his restoration. Google the documents they asked him to sign. Google MARK DRISCOLL’S OWN REPLY ADMITTING THAT HIS LEADERS OVERSTEPPED THEIR BOUNDS!!!! Stop looking at it through victim’s eyes and realize that Andrew did not victimize you nor are all men sexual predators. Good grief, it’s simpler than that. He messed up, he admitted it, he was held accountable, he repented and acknowledged his sin, yet the church and its leadership chose instead to swoop in, hold him under their thumb and force allegiance to man-made rules and commandments instead of employing grace and genuinely, gently seeking his restoration. In your pulpit-stance you sound as if you’re immune to sin. Watch out, lest ye be tempted as well…
you mean Mark’s reply saying that 1) he wasn’t personally involved and 2) those leaders have already been under investigation and fired for unrelated matters before the Andrew case wenr public and 3) he didn’t personally oversee this case as MPT originally accused him of? Other bloggers have recanted their stance once they were contacted by MHC. No, I never said all men are sexual predators, but we are not omnipotent and we therefore need special screening for those who volunteer to serve and protect those who have been victimized by predators. Yes, I have been tempted before, and repented under the same disciplinary process (see above). I have seen the contract, or covenant, or however you’d like to state it, and it was not unreasonable, given the circumstances. See how quickly the truth can be twisted by emotion?
Yes, and I commend you on your expert twisting abilities.
I also commend you on your superb selective reading ability. Mark Driscoll clearly says in his statement: “when we hear of leaders overstepping their authority through the church discipline process we are quick to act to rectify the situation…In both cases that have been brought to light, things did not go as they should have…In addition, in two separate instances, we have removed the staff members involved and they are no longer on paid staff or in formal leadership in any capacity at Mars Hill Church.” It doesn’t matter WHEN Mars Hill did it, the fact is that they had to do it because they realized the error of their ways. They were simply doing damage control to protect their reputation because they knew the story would eventually get out. Please open your eyes, “Member.”
Just out of curiousity, how are you qualified to make that kind of judgement and what efforts have you made to justify your accusations? Have you ever been a member at Mars Hill and were you ever present at these meetings? Do you know these people and situations personally or are you basing everything on hearsay? Again, if the elders were so adamant about protecting their reputation, wouldn’t they have publicly blasted those leaders publicly when the lower leaders got fired instead of mercifully rebuked them yet allowed them to keep their dignity? Yes, they were removed from leadership, as they should have been. And it does matter when they got fired. The timing of firing shows leadership made a proactive, not a reactive stance.
Yes, I was a member of Mars Hill. I found the teachings unbiblical, the direction unsound, and the eldership unreliable. I don’t know Andrew but if you take the time to reread my initial post, you’ll see that I had experienced this kind of discipline as well, for a different matter, but still church discipline nonetheless. Who are YOU to make your own kind of judgments on what is fair and what is not, what is oppressive and what is not??? Why don’t you attend Mars Hill, take up a position of service, try committing your own sin and seeing how the church responds to it and then we’ll see if you think that Mars Hill is gentle and gracious in restoration, or merely oppressive and legalistic in nature, with no hope for reconciliation or reintegration into service. No, it does NOT matter when they got fired. The point, which you’ve missed yet again, is that they overstepped their bounds, and were removed, period. This shows that Mars Hill acknowledges their fault in oppressive and unbiblical leadership. Please open your eyes.
Member, you’ve missed the entire point of the entire issue. I’m sure your response would be, “Sure, oppressive church discipline and man-made laundry lists of unreasonable stipulations and shame-breeding public exposure sounds great to me, where do I sign? Yay!”
My understanding is that you purportedly experienced this “Oppression” at Overlake, not Mars Hill. Yes, I did take a position of leadership and service at Mars Hill, and was lovingly disciplined as one. I only stopped attending when I moved to a different state for work related reasons, but still keep on good terms with my former CG leaders. When were you a MHC member? You don’t sound like a former member to me, just a former attendee, becase people who don’t believe in the doctrine we preach can’t become members without going through the membership process, which involves signing a members covenant agreeing to the doctrine we preach and agreeing to respect the eldership. So it looks like either that makes you a former attendee or a liar.
P.S. I will only be out of state for a temporary period, so I am still considered a member for all practical purposes.
HMM… Name-calling, very mature. I was a member, but you’ll never believe me no matter what I say. The bottom line is that you’re blindly allegiant to a church and a leader and a system that endorses graceless church discipline that does not connote or beget restoration and gentle grace-filled love, Christ’s way. You believe in oppression, spiritual handcuffing, and waiting for MAN to determine when a man’s heart is right and repentant. I would rather put my stock and my faith in a loving God who knows my heart.
Lol nice cover. Sure.
Also, the majority of the public exposure and shaming was Andrew’s own doing. Nobody told him to go running to the bloggers, who blasted Mark and the church without getting the other side of the story. Notice that nobody from Mars Hill is releasing his last name yet, to try to shield him from the worst of the damage he could do. Your lies and truth twisting and biased public blastings are making you look like a serial troublemaker, not a truly concerned brother in Christ.
And your name calling, and your staunch defense of a church that is hell-bent on oppression, spiritual spanking, and ultimately excommunication makes you look like someone who is strangely deluded. Good luck with that. I would stop trying to justify the situation and this unhealthy church with its unhealthy leadership and I would start reading your Bible and listening to the Lord for a change.
Who interviewed you for membership and when were you instated as a member at Mars Hill?
Um… A man… … I think his name was John…,… Yeah,… John Smith. Yes… I’m sure that’s who it was.
Look at you! What a great spiritual detective! Nice badge, and you’ve been fully blessed and empowered from On High! WOW!!! It’s Super Christian Sleuth to the rescue!
I’m not going to play your silly game, “member.” You’re being absolutely ridiculous… Now you want proof that I’m legitimate. When will you ever stop your questioning? When will you ever just accept that things are as they are? When will you open your eyes? When will you see that Jesus loves you, that he wants you for himself as his beautiful bride, that he is full of grace and mercy, that he loves us as we are, that he is full of compassion and mercy… That his mercies are new every morning, that his love never fails, etc. etc. etc. You’re full of scorn, judgment, and graceless barbarism, and you just loooooove your little witch hunt. Get well soon.
Yep, likely never a member. Can’t remember where, when, and who interviewed you, can’t make up his mind on what sound doctrine is, doesn’t know the elders on a personal basis, doesn’t know the situation he’s judging on a personal basis, and resorting to name calling when caught lying. Ain’t that spirit filled? Now if you excuse me, this Super Christian Sleuth needs to go prepare for bible study tomorrow. Time is a precious gift from God to steward, and I don’t have time to argue with crazies all day….
Hey – you stole my reply!!!
. Those were my lines. Good luck with your “Bible” study.