I Am Thirsty Ministries co-founder, former administrator for Afshin Javid speaks out

To the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ around the world,

In October of 2008, I, Brenda Klemke, co-founded the ministry of ‘I AM thirsty’ along with Afshin Javid. At the same time I became a board member of the church where he was a Pastor, Vancouver Christian Fellowship (VCF). I AM thirsty became the missions and outreach arm of the VCF. I served as a board member and administrator of both ministries until September 30, 2011 at which time I resigned and we parted ways.

I have been wrong, and I owe you a sincere apology. I am so sorry.

What began for me, as a ministry to reach the world with the message of the Lord Jesus Christ has gone horribly off track. At a place of very deep pain and brokenness in my own life, I was deceived & subsequently lead many others into a cloud of deception so deep and so wide, it has reached around the world.

Please find my message to you in the 3 documents that you find here, here, and here.

I received these documents this morning and I have had trouble breathing upon reading them. They came in from 3 separate sources. I’ve been outside walking and seeking God.  Brenda Klemke has made an unreserved apology to God’s people, no equivocating, no excuses.  Her  Spirit-breathed courage goes beyond herself, as does the imprint of the urgency of the love of God and the deepness of His forgiveness. This is documentation of deception, of sin, and a true prophetic clarion call to repentance. Not later. Now.

Afshin Javid and the men who say they are ‘restoring’ him: David Damian and the leadership of Church of Zion in Vancouver has been sounded the clearest, Spirit-breathed warning I have ever seen. I don’t doubt the disclosures put Klemke in danger – but I know that the very Rock which broke her, hides her. There is no other shelter against such evil and ignorance.

Klemke does not give in to anger, there is no rancour, with an administrators skills she lays out events of her time with Vancouver Christian Fellowship and I Am Thirsty Ministries: the terrible wounding of herself, her family, Javid’s family and others by a man who calls himself a prophet, a pastor, a minister. Each event, each wounding documented is preceded or followed with It is written. It is written. It is written.

What Klemke witnessed and speaks to is a long and lurid pattern of deception, of preying on vulnerable people by Afshin Javid. His contempt for women is chilling, his yielding and delight in sin, complete.
I like that God has chosen a woman to speak to such sin. Her compassion is steel, her testimony true. Repentance is not a trifle, restoration is not accomplished at will or at whim.

I don’t think those who have been criminally harmed will go to police. To read the level of evil is to understand their wounding may be too much. Where Javid may face Canadian law may be in thumbing his nose at provincial regulations.  The body of Christ has no excuse for making any more excuses.  While I do not know if Canadian law will find Javid, I do know it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I believe if Klemke is not heard, as those before her who have warned the church about Javid have been mocked or dismissed; Javid and those who harbour him will face swift judgement of God. I don’t know what that will look like, but it will be, and is, a fearful thing. I believe time grows short, and while I know the Holy Spirit relentlessly seeks – He will not be mocked – the sowing into the wind by Javid and his handlers, will shortly reap the whirlwind.

The number of pastors who have warned churches and Christians  not to permit Javid to minister has been unprecedented. Their warnings and pleading have crossed denominational lines and doctrinal differences. Their wisdom has dismissed, their kindness trampled, their reputations attacked, and their recommendations ignored.
The cries of all the wounded have reached the throne of God.

Brenda Klemke spend her life wanting to serve God. This confession and this prophetic warning is the culmination of years of lostness and detours. This may well be the only time God calls her to be a prophet. She has obeyed and it is enough.  To the pastors, writers, and believers who have called out with her against such sin, such selfishness, such bondage and evil; be at peace. “Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord…” Exodus 14:13.  I’ll end with Brenda Klemkes words, spoken not only to Javid, but to those who still harbour and hide him in ‘ministry’:

And God, “rich in mercy, because of His great love” has stepped in for you Afshin. He has exposed the darkness. What you do next is your choice. If and when you have repented Afshin, and your life has been radically transformed, it will be obvious, because you will recognize the rippling effects your sin has caused around the world – the extent of the damage done, & you will publicly confess to these things & bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance. (Fruit trees do not bear fruit over night but over time – long periods of time – of proper Spiritual food and nourishment) You need to be grafted in to the True Vine, Afshin, in order to produce godly fruit. Without this, it is impossible.

About Bene Diction

Have courage for the great sorrows, And patience for the small ones. And when you have laboriously accomplished your tasks, go to sleep in peace. God is awake.
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149 Responses to I Am Thirsty Ministries co-founder, former administrator for Afshin Javid speaks out

  1. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    I found this blogger speaketh the truth about ‘relationship with God’ that so many of us here claims,

    “SUNDAY, MAY 20, 2012

    A Personal Relationship With Jesus?

    “We need to be willing to risk embarrassment, ask silly questions, surround ourselves with people who don’t know what we’re talking about. We need to leave behind the safety of our expertise.” Jonah Lehrer, “Imagine: How Creativity Works” random quote of the day…

    These are simply speculations…informal, unguided postulations about the nature of “A personal relationship with Jesus”.

    If one could have a personal relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (or maybe just a Holy Trinitarian threesome), how are we to know that it was a relationship with them and not simply the individual’s thoughts bouncing around inside their brains? It appears to me that we cannot falsify this claim that one can have a personal relationship with God. More clearly, in what circumstances do we know that it was the individual being influenced by a psychological expression or disorder and not “Jesus” or vice versa? How can we differentiate between these experiences?

    Today I’m going to suggest that a “Personal relationship with God” is really the individual’s mind as it reflects upon the various views and philosophical positions of their faith and the decisions they make in response to it.

    A personal relationship with God always requires 2 components: a faith structure (religion) and a mind. The unique expression of the individuals mind as it considers the sundry elements of their faith is the “personal relationship” part. The fact that an individual will usually weave in their own personal preferences to synchronize with their faith seems to underscore the fact that the Christian religion is based on an individual’s preferences and emotional style rather than on reason—or even a strict adherence to dogma. There is great flexibility in the Christian faith. This is evidenced by the diversity of denominations—and all of these denominations probably appeal to slightly differing mind-sets along a conservative (mind?) continuum.

    I think that the “Personal Relationship with God” strategy endorsed by a large number of Christian theists is really just an emotional proposal that coaxes over individuals’ who have no interest in science, reasoning or empirical evidence. Instead of bringing up factual claims about one’s faith, how Biblical doctrines are verifiable or how living the Christian life offers a distinct advantage (are divorce rates really lower?) they latch on to this easy, unfalsifiable strategy of “A personal relationship with Christ”.

    If one is going to fully believe that they have a relationship with an invisible entity who offers advice and direction throughout the day, who guides them in their every decision while others starve to death, who unfolds a plan for their life path… well, there should actually be stricter, higher standards of evidence for the existence of this entity.

    Someone might suggest “Whether or not an idea is falsifiable cannot be employed in a variety of daily life circumstances so therefore it shouldn’t be used in the case of a personal relationship with God”. Um, this is a God we’re talking about. This is the ultimate Creator Being who, from it, came everything else. Thus, the evidence for God should be overwhelming and the criteria to determine the existence of God should be crystal clear, not full of convolutions in logic. There shouldn’t be hundreds upon hundreds of unanswered questions or attempts from both the Biblical text and its followers to suppress and demonize questions and honest inquiry.

    Ideas that are extraordinary always require more consideration of the evidence and more subjugation to higher standards of criticism—not less.”

    This came from “A Slice of Mind” http://asliceofmind-suva.blogspot.com/2012/05/personal-relationship-with-jesus.html#comment-form

    My personal take is that we each have to practice some form of faith, and while many here rely strictly on things invisible and not seen, and take faith solely as the evidence itself. I demand to have more than faith when it comes to curing toothaches, heart diseases, cancer, or alcoholism. I think it is time to put aside faith as the medicinal approach, otherwise, those of you int he faith may ended up like a scientologist and while we laugh at them, we hold the very similar principles that faith dominates all aspect of our lives, and not a true way to reflect on the ‘sins’ of Javid and Stan. I also totally disagree with that fact that we are no better than Javid or Stan when it comes t the fact we are all sinners and all alike. No, that is a lie. I have not had illicit sex with anyone other than my own spouse. I have not practice polygamy, physically, and I am still monogamous. Many others here who are atheists are the same, but these theists who have a claim of a relationship with god, they sexed anyone that is weak and molests anyone freely and still claim god’s love and forgiveness. That seems to me like they have a medical addiction not spiritual. Amen. Hypocrisy is a form of medical sickness. Amen.

  2. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    To nicely summarize Javid/Stan’s sexual promiscuity:

    1. Supernatural explanation: men are fallen at the beginning of creation, and have had inherited the Sin from Adam, this original sin is evident in all human actions, and they are doomed. God sent his son to save them fromtheir sins by dying on the cross and supernaturally raise from the dead, so all that believes him shall inherit eternal life. (American faith demands a personal relationship with this saviour Jesus and God, and using the neatly 4 Spiritual Laws, engineered by ‘Dr’ Brightson).

    So God sometimes planted the doubt and evil to test us, so when we pass these sexual tests, we shall reap eternal reward. Sometimes, salvation is not complete, since others never were saved or truly saved, evident by the fact that fall away, or they sexed a lot of people, practiced Christian free love. That, although God cannot deal with them right now, and right at this moment, since he would have to wipe out (kill) most of us, so he lets his preacher molest and sexed many many young girls and boys and other feeble minds, but god is still in control, he will eventually bring everything to his own timing, and get them at the end.

    Javid and Stan will be judged by god and Javid is obviously a false prophet, maybe demon possessed. While Javid is unrepentent, and arrogant and in practiced perhaps still fornicates, but Stan has publicly admitted his sins and asked for forgiveness and therefore we should just forget his sexual addictions and allow him to remain this way, continue in ministry to help men and women with sex problems. He has admitted and sought gods ever powerful healing, and now he is healed, for it says, with his stripes we are healed. Stan shall henceforth, never commit any more sexual acts illicitly, except with his own legal legitimate wife. He is free from his sins for god has now saved him from it. Any mentioning of his past is despicable, and irreverent. In short, Javid has not sought god’s forgiveness and he has continued arrogantly, so he is demon possessed, but despite many women and hundreds of women, Stan is truly healed and loved by god and now we should also forgive him, allow him to work with many women to help them in counselling and spiritual directions.

    Natural explanation:

    Humans evolved with pressures from natural selection. Evolution has shaped his way of life and helped in the past. Sex is a beautiful thing and sometimes in a pact there is an alpha male that have sexual access to all females. This is evident that Javid and Stan has this gift of alpha male. While modernity forbids this alpha maleness and laws are passed so that these men may not engage little kids under 18 for their sexual prowess, they nevertheless. continued. Medical studies have uncovered the power of addiction, that the repeated offenders cannot stop, it is a behaviour not a sin. While some does better, others may not, this is a natural explanation of why precaution must be taken when we deal with ancient animal traits, for it is innate, and when this act harms others, modern laws put them away (sexual predators). We should all be thankful that we are all alive, joyful and when we put moral values into things, we might be asking the wrong question. While these values differ, but generally the universal principle of love others as self is genuine. This comes about without the aid of Christianity in all human cultures. Stan and Javid must be treated with respect, not as sinners. They mustnot be allowed to work in positions where they can access to more females. They also must be carefully treated, watched, so that they will not willingly pass on their sperms to other females. That is a must, and addiction cannot be sure supernaturally, so all means natural must be used. No god, or angels, or demon cal influence Stan or Javid. Their hormones rule when they sexed many other females, it is an ancient evolutionary trait to pass on their genes. It is better to corner them in a safe environment so others may not be harmed. After all, Javid, will always be Javid till the day he dies. Stan while claims his divine healing, will always be Stan, till the day he dies. Amen.

  3. thom says:

    TLBC
    I say we are no better because we all like to set the bar compensate for and grade our sins, steal, lie, cheat on taxes, rape, tell a little white lie? People who have been charged with sexually abusing kids or adults often say they were helping to feed them by paying for it? Whats wrong with that, and why? God didn’t plant evil in us he gave us freewill, with freewill comes temptation and the Holy Spirit. This whole journey on earth is about you deciding who you want to spend eternity with, get to know Gods character or satans character. Do you belive in Good and Evil. If not then why do people get so upset when someone does em wrong? Where did our conscience come from and when, was it a transitional anomalie that magically appeared or is it kinda like a roomstone where everyone gets it, kinda? Or was it the transition between fish and mammel that our eyes were opened to good and bad. I don’t know if i should eat that fly or not..
    I also beleive that some people are seriously tweeked because of the crap that man has pumped into our atmosphere, vaccines, water, gmo- everything and food, short circuiting, chemically and physically altering people. Much of this is done by man for money, love of money.
    Seems to me that eating meat should be a punishable offence, eating our kin and all. You just want to be your own god setting your own critera of acceptable, kinda acceptable and not acceptable, depending on the day, who is involved and your moods. I explained to you that i have seen and been involved in the battle between good and evil, daily. As you are. I have seen demons cast out of people. This is not delusional or fabricated many others have seen it also, but you choose to disregard its viability, numerous ways. Black is white, good is bad. Natural explanation, who are you accountable to and why…..no one. Good ole lawlessness, Afshins digging it.

  4. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    One of the main argument here is that without a Christian deity, there is no morality. This is simply false. Human being have been without this type of faith for 40-50 thousand years (protestant, American, and Schaefferian faith that states that humans cannot be moral without his god). This is simply false. Look at the primates, they have a moral code, too. If you read Jane Goodall, she will tell you that they too have a social structure, and sex has meaning and restriction as well. Any ape can have sex, except they avoid their own sibling. Apes are raised like us, and there are ‘tiger mothers’ who raise their little apes to become the leaders of the pact. They also practice reciprocity and know when they are cheated of a fair exchange. The bible tells me only humans are made in the image of God, and the quality of just and moral is a god like quality; well, ethology will tell you otherwise. Maybe in the whole biological world, animals and primates and humans are alike, all share the similar traits of morality.

    And if you look at all human societies, even those with Pirahas Indians, not just godless, they all display similar moral ability as well. So, your notion of morality without God is actually, laughable. Why not say that we all share traits of these morality we share with all creation, and sometimes the self righteous fundagelicals rape and commits incests that even the animals would not do. Evolutionary forces perhaps frowned upon this type of behaviour. I hope this type of naturalist explanation would satisfy your intellectual and theological mind. Not all things can be explained by faiths, because everyone has a different way to look at things, and as I said, all explanations are valid, whether Christian or pagan. Amen.

  5. thom says:

    TLBC

    We were all born with a conscience. Evolution has taken us to where Sodom and Gomorrah left off. Man has almost destroyed this planet Earth. Through modern technology man has fast tracked the human trafficing of children and adults to a alltime high, highest sexual slavery ever. Man still has sects of cultures, and satanic groups that sacrifice humans. There are cultures that condone beasiality. There is a Arab saying that you haven’t experienced Mecca intill you have copulated with a goat. There are cultures that say you can’t help the helpless because its their karma, to suffer. Is this all ok with you and where do you set your moral compass? What do you mean you sacrificed my daughter? And how do you calibrate your moral compass, whose culture? How about the wicca culture. It seems to me that you may be a bit judging. What about the bankers who are destroying the global economy they are sincere gang who have mouths to feed and wives to please. What about the chimpanzies that tear monkeys apart and eat them. Who goes to jail here, do they have morals yet or does that come later in a puff of smoke, but who really cares, its surival of the fittest any ways. No morals here its all about self catering and shifting boundries. Lets open up the prisons who are we to set perimeters, these guys are sincere and just trying to get ahead, seems kinda selfish, condeming. Evolution, have you been following Fukushima. Nuclear scientists are saying its far worse then Chernobyl with infant and senior mortality rates climbing, re stastical records and trends. Death,Up 40% in parts of the US and very high in Vancouver, for starters. Man has opened a can of whoop ass that he can not contain and as is said in the Scriptures the lord shall return befor man completly destroys himself. Join the be your own god crew and set you own perimeters of whats right and wrong depending on who and where you are, you know when in Rome.. Or join the convicted by the Holy Spirit bunch. Its your call, i pray you make the right one.

  6. Brenda Klemke says:

    IT IS WRITTEN:
    Psalm 20:7
    Some trust in chariots, and some in horses;
    But we (I) will remember the name of the Lord our God.

    My trust my friends remains, in the Lord my God who has rescued me out of a miry pit.

    IT IS WRITTEN:
    Psalm 40:2-4
    2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay,
    and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
    3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth,
    even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord.
    4 Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

    Only God Almighty could do the amazing things God is doing in Stan and in our marriage. Not an ounce of the glory can or will go elsewhere.

  7. Susan says:

    Refreshing when both feet are standing on the solid rock. To feel your strength being renewed. Knowing the rock can’t be shaken or moved. Leaving all else behind and moving forward with assurance. To stand with others, the cloud of witnesses, on this rock. To feel the coolness of His mercy and grace. Those whose feet are there, will find rest from the storm.

  8. Marina says:

    Seems to me thom, that you are looking to the sky for an easy way out. Rather than trying to “be the change that you want to see” you are using escapist mentality to cope. I know it’s easier and less painless to have to bear the responsibility for making this world a better place, but some of us will labour on. Some of us care enough about the injustices in this world, the greed and exploitation of others and the earth, to do things to turn the ship around. And in case you haven’t noticed we’ve come a long way in bettering our society since biblical times. In our culture slavery is not condoned, women have equal status and children are not property to start. You compare our moral values and standards from those 2000 years ago and I think you will see that we have come a long way in protecting the rights of others. Society as a whole has evolved and has exceeded the morality of the bible thom. That you cannot deny.

  9. brano says:

    ..What a totally insane statement!…PROOF PLEASE….. Society as a whole has evolved and has exceeded the morality of the bible thom.

  10. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    The Bible does not negate slavery, as in the case of Onesimus. Rather, St Paul asked the letter bearer, Onesimus to go back willingly to his own enslavement. Now we are not sure whether Onesimus escaped because of abuse, but very often, these slaves were poorly paid and over worked. Today, we condone the slavery of hispanics in America, so we can have beans for less than $1.00 per pound, we paid slaves to pick tomatoes in FL for 1 penny per pound, this too is biblical. So yes, slavery is still modern, but most of us do not condone its practice.

    The bible talks about women should be submissive, and when in church, not to hold any leadership, for the Sin came through her and because she is weaker vessel. She can be saved, however, through child bearing. Women are seen as less human, since the tenth commandment teaches that women and children are properties. And in the book of Job, when God restored Job and all his properties, that also came with herds, slaves, and children.

    The bible is not against polygamy, it is OK within Mosaic laws to hold polygamy, and forced marriages or rape of a captive virgin is acceptable. Either that happens, or the captive virgin is dead meat. When one is raped, one is expected to marry the rapists. Bible teaches that is the way to be.

    Jesus has a very skewed view of marriages, for he does not condone this, rather, he exhorts those for the kingdom of God to stay celibate, same as St Paul. I suspect St Paul is a closet homosexual, see his comments on his own bodily member/appendage does is not under his control.

    As much as it is taught in the bible, these ancient teachings have been used to justified subjugation of animals (since they do not have the image of God, free to be killed for our food), women, and genocides. Much of these acts are atrocious to the modernity. If you like to google, others can give you a better treatment of a backward biblical society when Jews or Near Eastern folks lived in it. We have come a long way, buddy. Face it, if you were caught working on a sabbath, you are dead meat. If you cross dressed, you are dead, if you curse your folks, you are dead. If you curse at God, you are dead, if you questioned his prophets (like Javid), the ground will swallow you alive. God told David to completely kill Amalekites, animals, children, infants, women and elderly, ad the men. Every part of their presence was wiped out. If that is not genocide, what is it?

    I can name a few more, but most of our fundies do not want to go there, they only talk of love and personal salvation, and an intimate relationship with the Father and the Son. They have blinders on, while they will not listen.

    I do not question people’s theological and spiritual experience. I merely draw a distinction between these metaphysical notions to something that is real, and concrete and natural in this world. Why not let god and whatever beyond worry about theirs and we do ours in this world?

  11. brano says:

    ….the anti-christian drivel goes on and on….I can name a few more, but most of our fundies do not want to go there, they only talk of love and personal salvation, and an intimate relationship with the Father and the Son. They have blinders on, while they will not listen.

  12. thom says:

    Marina,

    Being Christain is not easy, in a world that anything goes.
    I’m not sure why you are so against the God of the Bible, have you read the 10 commandments they are given to us to tell us that we need God and to truly show us the state of our hearts less we become deceived. I think you have a hard time differenciating between God and his Character because of damage that man or woman has done to you, so called christains. The two are different. The world says to be all that you can be, the Bible says that the most important thing is to be humble. Of which i struggle greatly. The commandments are given to us in love and are not a condeming list of “or elses.” They can keep us on the straight and narrow in a world that preaches if it feels good do it. I don’t profess to understand the slavery spoken of but do know that the Lord did not condone the abuse of slaves, this was done by people who chose to make there own laws and rules, through free will. Often the slaves of the Bible were working off debts or worked for food in times of distress, often they became as family members and willingly stayed with families for generations. God does not condone mistreatment rape and torture, abuse is not the character of God it is the character and mandate of satan, to deceive and destroy. Things have not changed much as far as man and his sense of self entitlement go for thousands of years. Man has advanced technologically and there are benificial things that some societies have instilled, i agree. And there are some deadly things that societies have introduced also. My point is that the choice to do evil in the name of greed and self entitlement has once again brought this planet to the brink as the lord said we would. Prisons are full, the bankers have crashed the global economy, more wars at once then ever in history, suicide rates high and climbing, pharmaceutical drugs up(anti depressants),illegal drugs high, abortion high, fukushima radiation high, 3rd world hunger up, sexual slavery of women and kids highest ever…. All of these people are part of societies.
    I appreciate that not everone is like this and has good intentions. The evolutionary process you would think would of rid the world or at least decreased the world of these traits but it hasn’t and now we have the threat of nuclear war looming in the Middle East and both Russia and China also threatening the USA. These are alliances that were spoken of in Revelations, as is the one World Goverment that is spoken of by todays leaders of the world openly. This is happening before your eyes and you can not see it. You have been lulled into an awareness that everthing will be ok and that people are generally pretty good, karma will get them. The chaos or anarchy that insues is not going to evolve into peace and harmony. I do not doubt that you have good intentions but think that your eyes need to be opened to the facts that surround you, the urgency of the time and the reality of Good and Evil . This is about where you spend eternity and if you can find fault in the 10 commandments, or see them to be outdated, let me know. These are the very end of times you are in, it does not get better and if the lord does not intervene, game over. The good news is God loves you knows we are broken, knows what we are up against and allows us to have a personal relationship with him, and one day soon this evolveing, destroying preview to hell will come to an end. You gotta pick a team Marina.

  13. brano says:

    Bingo…

  14. thom says:

    TLBC,

    I don’t profess to understand all of the Old or New Testament, i do know that we were not to eat animals intill the fall, i do know that if God says to do something its rightious and i know that there is much we do not understand but profess to due to a rebelious spirit. The Bible says not to marry if you can handle the temptations, otherwise take a wife. To say Pauls a closet homo is a bit much. The Bible also says that woman are our equal and have been gifted with the awesome miracle of child birth. We are accountable to them as they are to us. No better no worse. The New Testament is a New Covenant of restoration with man and althought the Old testament is a preview of the New testament some things are different. I’m not going to get into sabbaths but i beleive that judgeing by the state of your heart you can do things that please and honour the lord that others may preceive as a ritual. Do you find fault in the 10 commandments and which one? The 10th commandment says not to covet your neighbours wife, or stuff or anything? The ten commandments are not rules, they are a gauge of the heart. The Holy Spirit helps us to conform to these through its conviction… a true sign of a Christain. We are a rebelious lot denying what our hearts once knew to be truth. You either seek him out or you don’t then you will know for sure. You gotta serve somebody..

  15. brano says:

    I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.
    Bertrand Russell

  16. Tim says:

    It’s kind of interesting that people here are speaking of the ten commandments in defense of morality and belief. Ironically, studying the ten commandments is what started my journey away from Christianity and ultimately, religion. I used to think I served a perfect, omniscient, omnipresent and loving god. The ten commandments were my first realization that was not the case, especially in light of the different versions and the punishments inflicted on those who breached them. They ultimately declared open season on anyone who was not necessarily disobedient but simply questioning of their state of existence and being. In other words, a valid reason to kill without having guilt of conscience, as long as it wasn’t god’s people that were being killed.

    Thom, perhaps you need to spend more time studying the ten commandments and maybe you’ll begin to understand what life is like outside the confines of your sandbox.

    For those who have the fortitude: http://atheism.about.com/od/tencommandments/a/versions.htm

  17. brano says:

    Tim,
    If you would take the time to study the entire context of christendom,you would not make such an uninformed and silly comment

  18. Tim says:

    Brano, if you would care to take the time to study my history within Christendom, you would not arrive at such uninformed and silly assumptions, judgments and conclusions about me. I think almost four decades or in other words, a biblical generation, has provided me with ample knowledge and experience, especially in consideration that over 15 years of that time included church leadership along with being the national director of a school of ministry. What disappointed me the most when in leadership was the fact most of my peers spent less than 8 hours a day studying the subject matter of what they were teaching. For me, I took it seriously and lived, ate and breathed evey word in the book, every day. I wanted to be certain my calling was an election sure and would not accept anything less. So to summarize, I probably studied more in a month than most study in their lifetime and to underscore that point, I also lived it to the fullest.

  19. brano says:

    Tim,
    I hope that you did not throw out the baby with the bath water…
    “Experience without theory is blind,but theory without experience is mere intellectual play”
    Immanuel Kant

  20. Tim says:

    Actually brano, once I got through all the toys, oil, bubbles, fragrance and conditioners, I realized there was no baby…

  21. Angelyn says:

    Will someone here – anyone – please explain how the single commandment “Thou shalt not kill,” which, unlike other commandments, is NOT followed by any exceptions (such as, thou shalt not kill, except in the case of… etc.,…, etc…, etc……………., etc., etc…………………….) is violated throughout the Pentateuch and elsewhere in the Old Testament by detailed instructions for killing?

  22. Tim says:

    Angelyn, I think you’ll find that in the fine print, the commandment is not really broken. When put in context, it should read, “Thou shalt not kill God’s chosen people; All others are heathen and therefore should be considered free game!”

    Typically you will find a precursor to god commanding the ruthless and relentless, unsparing slaughter of men, women and children and it’s usually along the lines of separating those who are for him from those who are against him, then let the fun begin.

    Great question though…

  23. Susan says:

    Like the track record of Peter, we all get it wrong. Peter was called a rock. He sank like a rock, when he got out of the boat. He cut an ear off someone, yet this rock was told to put the sword away. He even backed up when a woman declared, that he was with Jesus. The old fight or flight thing.

    This guy was to be a leader? Looks like it. After the death of Jesus, on the day of Pentecost, the leadership of Peter changed. He stood up in front of the multitude. More than not, plenty of the elite of scribes present. People listened to the message he gave. This was the rock. Gone are the past failures, transformed into a witness.

    We all get confused with issues in life. Some issues so painful no words can be found to help. Christians are suppose to know the will of God. We don’t always get it right though. Sometimes we just have to wait.

  24. brano says:

    Tim, most interesting!..However theologically incorrect..PLEASE provide proof of this silly notion.” I think you’ll find that in the fine print, the commandment is not really broken. When put in context, it should read, “Thou shalt not kill God’s chosen people; All others are heathen and therefore should be considered free game!”

  25. Tim says:

    Brano, the proof is in the book, just read it all again. Teachers don’t do their student’s homework for them.

  26. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    What a fellowship, what a joy divine! Sleeping on the Memorial Day Weekend!

    I see that everyone has blessed me with the 10 commandments today. Let me add a word or two.

    I no longer see 10 commandments as the moral absolutes that so many is trying to resurrect here. For one thing, coming from an Eastern and Asian background, the person who wrote these commandments is perhaps male and Asian, possibly Jewish. Here is why, these ten rules are not just broken, but they bend them everywhere if they could. It is male, and patriarchal, since women were not given the right and the moral tone to speak,men were. So, women were/are considered properties in the tenth commandment. In the 7th commandment, thou shalt not commit adultery, it is not written with women in mind, it is written with the male, since he is the one who is able to impregnate the others, little girls, women, elder women, and animals. Adultery is defined in what he does, one wife, two wives, or more. Whether his victim is caught and held captive, as long as she was not a married women, but a virgin, she is fine, she could be his sex slave. And when he is tired of her, he would have to let her go free, since he raped her and she was the sex slave for him. Adultery is defined from a male, a god who is male, and if you were a foreigner, minor, and slave, it does not cover the sexual ethics of this male master.

    So here whoever that was raped at a young age, is fine, just pay the money of you were caught, but if you were a virgin girl, and you did what the males counterpart did, you would be dead. Period. That is the sexual ethics of 7th commandment. Can we put it into laws…..hmmm….let me think about it.

    I think the 5th commandment broke my back. I was taught to revere parents like a god. They are god matter of fact, because, like a god, the god of the bible, they can always change their opinions, but you are to submit to that notion. If god says you cannot eat the Bread of Display, but golly, you are hungry and King David, that is OK. If you shout at them, you are dead, period. Your own folks should take you to the gate and elders and others watching, put you and stone you to death. Is that the biblical commandment? Yes, but we white wash this ancient tribal thing and make it the moral foundation of our faith or our nation? You decide. Most of proponent of the `10 Best Ways’ have never read its commentary which is the book of Leviticus. That is entirely irresponsible. Thom, and others, please ready it like Tim, Angelyn, and Marina. Most of us have spent hours reading and pouring over the texts, praying on our knees and memorizing these texts, justifying its killings and other irrational commands from a spoiled child-god, whose anger is quick and whose thoughts have usually led to massive extinction of other cultures.

    I have only, openly cover few of these commandments. We have embarrassingly many here with unchecked, blind support of an ancient, near eastern and out of date tribal texts, holding these words as if these are the very sacred words of God. I differ. If there are gods out there, we are. Not that he exists, but we do. For it is also written that ‘Ye are gods.’ and Taught by Christ of the Bible. Let us take responsibility for being god, and acting like one for once, with mercy, justice and love. Amen.

  27. thom says:

    Tim,

    If you look at the Greek word( phoneno) and Hebrew word(ratsach) you will see that the Lord said thou shall not murder, big difference.
    I think that your are confusing the acts of man vs the word of God, through out the Bible it says that man will let you down “by the time the rooster crows three times… I have lived in the world with the best of them and it’s a hampster wheel of self entitlement always looking for the next thing to fill that empty spot. I’ve traveled all over the planet same theme, man and his self regulating law of good, grey, and bad. Your conscience came from God and if you sear it you shall no longer hear it. You will hear the voice of this world, do what ever you want, your basically a good person. I’m sorry that your experience was so disapointing, i have been ripped off by so called Christains and was rocked, how could any Christain do this to me… The road is narrow, and the enemy is prowling like a lion. Lean on the lord and not your own understanding. Did you never experience God?

  28. brano says:

    Spot on Tim…

  29. brano says:

    As the great and not so mighty lord said:I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.
    Bertrand Russell

  30. Tim says:

    Thom, can you “Greek” and “Hebrew” your way out of all of these?
    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/short.html

    And that’s the short list. If you feel so inclined, perhaps you could have a look at the long list which is linked on the upper left of the page.

    And just to give you a better understanding of my background, during my “Christian” walk, I never looked to man so I was never concerned about being burned by other so-called professing Christians. I knew that if there was a god, he’d be far above all that petty crap and man’s weaknesses. Remove man, remove all other outside influence and you’ll find the same thing I did, which is absolutely nothing but me.

  31. thom says:

    TBLC,
    “and for this reason he became the Mediator of the renewed covenant, that he might by his death be redemption to them who had trangressed the first covenant; so that they who are called to the eternal inheritance might receive the promise.(Hebrews 9:15)
    Not to sure what scholars you are reading, perhaps Marcion, but your interpretation is man breathed. Christ said we are are Gods…workmanship. From the Aramaic New Testament,Gospel and Emissaries, Major Testimonies or Second Testimony of Yochanan i get a very different picture of our Lord’s character. Just as YHWH was “forgotten” by the Israelites in Egypt so is he forgotten today by the “educated masses” who say in their heart YHWH will do no good, neither will he do evil” (Zephaniah 1:12) Yshua loves you and thats the good news.

  32. thom says:

    Tim,
    The difference between kill and murder is quite important regardless of the language.
    I am non denominational do you mind me asking what your were?
    I’ve seen most of those before. God is rightious and his ways are above ours.
    Man can create nothing from nothing.
    You never had a God experience?
    Do you beleive in good and evil?
    Would you like God to reveal himself to you?

  33. Tim says:

    Thom, I’ve been down the road many times, had many experiences, some that to this day may not be explainable. There’s no point in me answering your questions because if you think you can help me find Jesus, I’ll just add your name to the other tens of thousands that are likely still praying for me to wake up to their version of reality. As I said, my walk is over four decades and as far as denominations go, I’ve been able to biblically dismiss them all, along with the god you claim has ways above mine, the same god who has had to repent and change his mind, though he is perfect and changes not.

  34. Tim says:

    One thing I forgot to ask… Can you please clarify your statement for me; are you saying man can or can’t create something from nothing?

  35. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    I wish someone would comment on the commandment #7 here. I’ll leave the others to Thom, Tim and Brano. I’d simply point out that no one actually keeps the commandment #7 today. We cannot allow ourselves to be polygamous, since the society has changed and we all frowned on Mormons that rape little girls and force to have lots of wives. And as for the rape victims, we no longer demand ‘hush money’ or marriage to the male rapist. We no longer put to death that wayard woman that asked to be raped by revealing clothing. We also have many many adulterous thoughts because the society glorifies and objectifies female bodies. Now that is from the male perspective, what about women’s?

    The fact is, Javid as a prophet of god claims that he is all forgiven and he has direct access to god, by definition, he is a holy roller. He has the ‘spirit’ or the ‘jist’ and Stan and Brenda claim that they are also wholesome and healed , all the grace of god. I think Dan claims that Stan is cleaned for 1 1/2 years. I presume that Stan has not been seeing a sex therapist, or a psychiatrist. He relies on the almighty god to help him. It is not that I no longer believe in god, it is just that he is not there to help these folks, and I think it is simply a delusion, so if possible, you can pray to god, but actually what will help Stan is to have him committed to an asylum to help his sexual addiction, or place him on medication, and/or treatment centres. I do no see the harm to pray, as long as you actually seek medical treatment. There, I said it.

    And Javid, if you monitor what I say. Here is the deal. You have obviously had sexual intercourse with many feeble minded Canadian girls/women. There are laws to put you away for raping feeble minded women. Intercourse may satisfy your male sexual drive, and your feeling that you are a god. But there is a general law called karma, and it comes back whether you believe it or not. It does not go away when you pray to your god and seek his approval of your sexual adventurism. You can claim any type of god’s special blessing on your ministry, or your sexual stamina, and you can get away for sometimes, but not forever. It is not about the blood of Jesus that can save you. You need help here, right now and right at this moment. I suggest you come clean, apologize to all women you have raped,make restitution, approach the authorities and seek help. This is the divine way when you walk in the divine way, God is with you. It is in you, and it empowers you. But if you try to claim “holy ghost” and the cheap way out, I think at the end, Karma will get you. I hope you read these words as a prophet’s warning. For thus saith the Lord, my servant speaketh the truth, Javid shall fall, Javid will be cut off like a cedar tree. Repent and come unto to me, even saith the Lord, the Lord Ben Chung.

  36. Susan says:

    Future Tense. There is a reason the Ten Commandments are viewed as such. Maybe this may help your research for command #7.

  37. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    Angelyn, let me help you with the Eastern thoughts.

    We have obviously two contradictions here, one is legal and Roman, the other is Jewish/Eastern/Asian.

    I note that many people wear this legal/Roman/rule of Law without questioning it. It is a Roman way. You have combined this with an ancient Biblical near eastern mind which does not work like that. So when god says not to kill. You take this as thou shalt not kill and that is the law. Legally, you cannot kill anyone, and that is the Law and cannot change. You cannot accept the fact that the law giver is wavering and he side steps the law, for the law cannot be broken. You have forgotten that this is very Jewish, and Asian. They say one thing, but they do the other, even their god reflects this human character. So I suggest here that this Jewish god is not perfect as you seemed to have put him on a pedestal. You will be terribly disappointed if you do.

    This hebrew god is a human person like the Jews that created him, so he acts like the Jews. Basically there are no set rules, the end justifies the means. He is always right, where as a Roman culture, you frown and seemed puzzled. This is why hen you actually read the bible, you will walk away with this idea that god kills randomly and with no actual explanation, and that is why the believers are puzzled and so they say gods’ thoughts are higher, he kills with a higher moral purpose. All this is none-sense. Just look at a Jew or Moslem, their culture is fused with the religion they have created, and when see it this way, it makes perfect sense that the god of the bible is not a Roman god, he does not act in the Roman way, and bible is not a legal text or unchangeable, It changes all the time, like the Jews. or East Indians, or the Chinese.

    I hope it makes sense. So despite the commandments, they all can be violated, side stepped as long as god does it, or god’s chosen people do it. This is why Javid as an Asian, rapes young women and god still bless his ministry. If this is Buddhism, you cannot find such an excuse and you will walk away knowing that at the end your own action will be your own undoing, that is Karma. I rather trust in karma, not this biblical Jewish god. For I no longer see his action justified.

    And for the skeptics out there, Thom, Bran. I no longer read English bible translation, I do know a bit of biblical Hebrew, enough Syriac to read Peshitta, and I use Latin Vulgate and Greek Septuagint. I am not sure what you don’t understand, read these texts yourselves, we have done our home work. Amen.

  38. brano says:

    aheem,mr chung,
    Your arrogance and false sense of self….keep you from the TRUTH
    Do read the masoretic text to enlighten youself some more
    tah tah

  39. Angelyn says:

    Thank you, Lord B. C., for a thoughtful and informative answer to my question about don’t-kill vs. kill.

    I am pretty much retired now, but when I had a counseling office and a client was religious, with his or her permission, I asked him or her to describe the divine nature (God or Goddess, or whomever the person revered or worshipped – many clients were Christian). Often we went into depth and detail until the nature of the divinity perceived by the client was completely uncovered.

    No two descriptions were the same. However, I found the information very useful in assisting each client to achieve the goals they brought into my office. For instance, a person who perceived God as loving and merciful could more easily tap into a loving and merciful outlook toward themselves, thereby more easily overcoming the issues that brought them to counseling. On the other hand, those whose beliefs were characterized by fear and judgment had a harder row to hoe, for they tended to be judgmental toward themselves. That harsh self-judgment became an impediment to the work, and an obstacle to overcome before other issues could be successfully addressed.

    When I read your explanation, I found myself nodding my head, and thought of this.

    I do expect to answer your request about the 7th commandment shortly.

  40. Angelyn says:

    Curious about what you mean, Susan, by “Future Tense,” regarding the 7th commandment – “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”

    Lord B. C., you are looking for a woman’s perspective? Your observations are pretty objective, leaving little to the subjective. Such a wide topic. Any specific questions?

    Looking at the issues raised by the original article in this blog, the issues seem to fall into these categories:

    What about the predators? What about the prey? And what about the divine mandate against sex outside of marriage (which begs the question, what about Jesus’ statement that a lustful thought equates to adultery)?

    I will speak for the “prey.” Some of the prey may be feeble-minded, but the strongest-minded woman can become prey, whether raped or seduced. So I would not categorize victims as necessarily feeble-minded. Of course if a person is “developmentally delayed,” shall we say, and is raped, whether violently or by seduction, that is despicable. Sexual abuse of children, whether girls or boys, is the most despicable of all. I will add, too, that women as well as men can seduce, or can willingly engage in adultery.

    As for the divine mandate against adultery, I am sure that scholars can cite Old Testament societal reasons for a taboo against adultery – to maintain the integrity of the family – to keep fathers identified for reasons of supporting the children they father – to keep women at home and off the streets – to identify lineages so the Messiah’s line will be clean…

    Marriage ideally, and conveniently, keeps society neat and tidy. Adultery messes up the order.

    The other thing that immediately comes to mind is the “obsession/repression complex.” That which we repress becomes an obsession. Sexual addiction is an obsession. The repression of healthy sexuality in society, which often starts at birth, leads to perverted or predatory sex.

  41. thom says:

    Tim,
    I think that you once found Jesus and have since chosen to deny him for some reason.
    You say you have seen things that may never be explained, a miracle perhaps.
    Only you know how it spoke to you at the time.
    I don’t intend to argue with you or force feed you anything as you say it’s nothing new, we are all on a journey.
    I hope you don’t mind if i pray that both you and TLBC are brought to a place that you have no place to turn but up.
    It works.

  42. Susan says:

    The Ten Commandments speaks of the future. All God’s commands do that. Because one commits themselves to God does not make them perfected. In spite of that, looking towards the future in a positive way using God’s commandments as our guide.

    When Jesus fulfilled all the commandments he did so with spiritual abundance. Key word spiritual. He let us know we must continually understand and guard our hearts. Jesus’ words thus fulfill the prophetic.

  43. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    Susan, please check your own Hebraic texts. I do not agree with this ‘future tense’ because there is no such a thing at least in a few commandments. Ten commandments are uttered in the context to do this, and not to do that. I am not sure you can extrapolate this and make a different interpretation. See this for yourself:

    http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html#c5

    Verbs such as ‘honour’ or ‘remember /Zachar’ are not in the future tense. And ‘T’ is to make things happen. It has an immediacy and it is not meant to put this off to some unknown future time. You are reading too much into the 7th commandment. It is immediate, and effective immediately. So when I eye a beautiful girl whose clothing is suggestive, that is an immediate act, or if your feminine eye sees a nice handsome man with a red car beckoning at you. As the commandment says, if a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, they must die. I seek not to play with your grammar. Much of what is said is immediate and effective.

    This brings up the point for those who want to legislate or codify biblical laws. You have to put a lot of folks to death, because many marriages failed on the account of infidelity. I think of 50 % marriages failed in the US, perhaps more than 30-40 % is due to infidelity. For starters, Benny Hinn must have slept with Paula White, and in the strict moral code, both are to be put to death. Benny was not divorced, and Paula may still be married (s?). Most people and moralists here do not read the bible in its entirety. Much of the contents in the Bible is a record of a tribal context, much of that cannot be practiced today. And St Paul with the Jesus of the Bible are against sexual union and regular marriages. They both were supposedly unmarried, and carried a particular bias toward his followers to be married. Jesus views marriage only in the context to avoid adultery, and so was St Paul. That is too low for the natural design found in the humans or animal. We are meant to continue our own species and race. That is the design. When Benny Hinn sees Paula White, they do not get together in Rome to hold a prayer meeting or for religious ecstasy, they were there, three nights, having physical sexual. The hormones running through Benny Hinn’s veins must be the natural rush and I see no spiritual explanation other than he eyed Paula White, and her physical appearance is pleasing to his eyes.

    As the Scripture teaches, “If a man takes a woman, and lords her, and it came to pass that he sees no grace in his eyes…” There is no moral context in that text. The man takes a woman, the law forbids the woman to serve as a go-betweener. If you read carefully, the divorced woman cannot have sex with the former man if she was married to the second man and he divorced her. This does not condemn divorce but merely states sex that is illegal for the woman, not men. Men can and must take many wives, and it is biblical. I am not sure how many Susans would agree with the biblical texts that says man can take and lord over a woman? There is no limit to how many a man can have as wives. You figure that out for me, will ya?

    Much of the discussion here can be boiled down to those who believed in the very notion that God commands and God is in charge. Fact is, God is no where to be found when these preachers fouled up and intercourse in his Name (another sacrilegious act against the Ten commandments), and He failed to discipline his own servants. Now I have someone praying for me to get down deep and under so I can return to this god. Tim must have gotten a lot of prayers lately. Well I see no reason why I should come back to a make believe world. If you really need that to stay alive and have meaning in your life, so do it! I take my place in my own community and work the earth to bring forth living and vibrant produce. I raise my family and work for an honest living. If you need more than that, be my guest. As indeed the sacred texts says, “We are all his children” “God is not partial” to the religious or non-religious. The sun shines on all, equally, Amen.

  44. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    Angelyn: Here is a hypothetical question from female perspective and as a counselor:

    We have a holy roller who had a dramatic life changing religious experience. She came from a very fundamentalist and sexually repressive background. Her father is a religious man who molests her oftern as a child. And as time went on, she was dramatically saved and filled with the holy ghost, spoke in tongue and while she was there, she was attractive to a young man who looked so spiritual and prayed and spoke with tongues also. They went on a date and had a few things and then married. After married this man, she found out that he is into porn and drugs, and he often went out at night to frequent ‘prayer meetings’ and came home with strange perfume. He had been diagnosed with STD (chlamydia). She forgave him 70 x 7 and he still continued in this path, with her or without her knowledge. Now she has three children from this marriage and seriously considering killing herself.

    Question: how would you counsel this woman? She believes in divine intervention.
    As a woman, how do you see this religious couple and what would happen if she continues to stay with him? And children?? what would happen to their children when they grow up in a dysfunctional family like this?

  45. Susan says:

    Torah. Used for teaching and instruction, not law.

  46. Angelyn says:

    Question: how would you counsel this woman? She believes in divine intervention. As a woman, how do you see this religious couple and what would happen if she continues to stay with him? And children?? what would happen to their children when they grow up in a dysfunctional family like this?

    First, “how would you counsel this woman?” There are still too many unnamed variables without first interviewing (“assessing”) the client, but I’ll start with this: When suicidal thoughts are presented or uncovered, that becomes an ethical priority – to prevent the suicide. Once all clinical avenues are followed to stabilize her in that department, I would explore her history. The purpose of this would be to uncover strengths within her which may be intact enough, though dormant, to reinforce in therapy, in order to help bring her through the crises (plural) that are now running her life.

    Together we would list the various crises she currently faces (sick husband; her devotion to him via a belief system that puts “forgiveness” before her own and her children’s safety (not to mention the community); broken marriage; crisis of faith; three children suffering three different patterns of symptoms as a result of the mess of the marriage… for starters). We would prioritize the list, picking one that seems manageable to start with. Remember, none of this can be done while suicide remains an imminent possibility.

    She believes in divine intervention. I would let her teach me how it can help her now. I would not discourage a belief system that is working for her. I would help her see where the system is working for her, and where it is not. If she is hung up on “forgiveness,” I would point out other scriptures that shore up the “other side of the story” – when to say “ENOUGH!” and stop a life run by dysfunction and abuse.

    Probably “forgiveness” is a cover-up for “being in love with him and can’t live without him,” so we would explore that, and I would teach her about the concept of “radical acceptance,” which means accepting two opposing truths at the same time. In this case, radical acceptance could be accepting on one hand “I love him” and on the other, “I can’t change him and he is hurting me and our children and I must leave and make a safe life for us, free of this sickness and abuse.” Then act accordingly. She must learn the difference between feelings (I love him) and behavior (I must do what’s best for me and my children, for I am contributing to this mess by staying).

    If she decides to stay, as a mandatory reporter, I would report to the appropriate children’s protective agency and let them decide to what extent the children are at risk.

    I would have her sign a statement that she realizes the scope of our work is severely limited as long as she decides to stay in such a marriage.

    We would work with other resources she may have – her pastor if that is feasible in her case, a local women’s resource/crisis center, her children’s counselors (hopefully they are getting help) – helping shore up her own network of support while reducing contact with unsupportive “friends/family” …

    This is all just for starters, based on your hypothetical case…

    What would happen to the children growing up in such a family milieu? They would grow up into leaders and parents and we’d end up with a society such as we have now…

    Here’s a little story: Early in my career a young man came to me, sent by his priest (Catholic). He’d been married for a few months, and had learned that his young wife was having multiple affairs, and had done so throughout their engagement. I believe the priest knew the marriage was hopeless but couldn’t tell him to divorce, so he let me do the “dirty work.” The young man was to leave town (with or without her) in a month, so our time was very limited – perhaps to the single session where he presented these issues.

    I asked him to think about this one question: If he had a one hundred percent guarantee – a one THOUSAND percent guarantee – that she would never so much as look at another man, ever, would be faithful to him always – what then?

    He returned before leaving town and said he couldn’t get the question out of his mind. I said, “And?” He said he’d have an ankle bracelet on her and have her under 24-7 surveillance, with double locks on the doors which only he could open, because regardless of such a guarantee he could never trust her again. I never told him what to do or not to do. It was his life and my job was to help him find his way in it. I never knew, but based on his conclusion, I suppose he left town without her.

  47. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    I thank you for your professional input in this hypothetical case, quite methodical and ethical. Now let me try my naturalist and medical-dental analysis.

    I no longer seek supernatural explanation or divine healing from such a hypothetical situation. If one came down with a toothache, we seek a natural and purely dental solution. If it is a cavity, other than a dietary analysis, we restore the tooth with a filling. If it is caused my traumatic bite, ie, stress, and night bruxism, than we seek to uncover the primary cause, and no more. I would then ask the patient to seek psychiatric/counselling/acupuncture/biofeed back/yoga etc. As long as we acknowledge the primary source of stress, that is where we can make better fillings or crown. In the case of traumatic bite, we prescribe night guard and if necessary gold crowns (if filling is too large). Porcelain crowns have been known to fail with stressful and traumatic bite. At times, I do suggest whether they have any higher moral guidance (most people do not) or religion, perhaps they can seek help there as a way to cope with stress. Not many people look to that anymore. Most of my young patients are practically atheists.

    In this woman’s case, there is a severe sexual dysfunction in this family. Her husband has an addiction to sex, and in cases, he might be frequent bath houses, and/or prostitutes, he is putting her at risk since this has already passed to her as a diagnosed STD. She has her own sexual dysfunction, primarily she has learned to cope with it by ‘forgiving’ ‘forgetting’ her molester. This is the probably primary cause for her to marry a similar male figure in her life. Possibly she is trying to make up for the loss of her virginity, and in a way to seek closure of her own situation. I see this happening very often. The abused will marry another abuser. My opinion, is that this is also another hopeless case. Unless, this woman is willing to first leave her religious sentiment behind, and leave this man, draw a boundary, there is no salvation. Her husband is a lost cause, and dangerous. He will continue to do this until this sex thing kills him. I might add, this is the will of God. He must die, for his own sins. This is also Karma. But she as an abused does not need to continue this path which puts her at risk, both her and her children.

    I wish to illustrate the absentism of god and the hopeless and poor use of faith as a substitution of real healing. There are real physical causes of this man, his brain has a malfunction. Perhaps someday, medical profession can come up with a pill that cures sexual addiction. I would look into more medical research, but I will no longer recommend faith as a source of medicine and god as a source of help. I see that he is entirely missing in all our discussion.

  48. thom says:

    Adultry,
    It is grounds to leave someone for unfaithfulness.
    Temptation is universal,pick your poison.
    The Lord say’s repent and depart from your sin, although painful it can be redeemed.
    Some are so engulfed in their sin that they will forsake everthing else, they love it.
    Consequences from bad choices.
    Freewill involves a lifetime of choices.
    Council is not a bad thing depending on its foundation.
    Prisons are full of people who have been counciled.
    Prisons are not filled with Spirit Filled Christians.

  49. brano says:

    mr chung,I find your drivel most amuzing,it goes well with my footloops…

  50. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    I would point out that Christians kill, rape and rob others as the non-Christians. It has nothing to do with the spirit-filled conditions. Stats will show that they are no better in the divorce court. Their religion/faith cannot change their selfish behaviour.

    My previous pastor in Vancouver was a lesbian, and her replacement was a drunk. Then came the swindler. You take your pick, I merely suggest that spirit has nothing to do with one’s behaviour. Free-will seldom play a role as in cases of autism, or parkinson’s diseases. It has something to do with a medical diagnosis and a condition. As I said before, Javid cannot change because he is filled with god’s holy spirit. Stan has not been able to lead a life away from his addiction to sex. I think it is matter of time he will re-offend again, and it has nothing to so to do with his faith and divine aid to his sexual addiction. He needs real and medical help before he seriously harm his own mate or someone else.

    I think we better leave this topic to those who treat sex offenders and not to theologians. And Javid needs to face the law, not god.

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