The internet community of former Independent Fundamentalist Baptists has been buzzing none stop this week, when news that IFB rock star leader Jack Schaap of First Baptist Church Hammond had been fired.
Churchgoers and students at Hyles-Anderson Bible School had initially been told their pastor of 11 years was on medical leave. A Facebook group called Do Right Hyles-Anderson formed earlier this week has just reported that Schaap is in custody.
Schaap was fired Monday night after admitting he had an improper relationship with a young woman, believed to be underage. It is also believed the teen was transported across state lines to meet up with the 54-year-old Schaap who has two adult children. The Indiana Lake Country Sheriff’s department and FBI are involved in the investigation.
If it is true Schaap was taken into custody tonight, the 15 thousand members of First Baptist may not yet be aware. Over 1 thousand went to a church meeting earlier tonight to learn what was going on.
HAMMOND | A somber crowd of people filed into First Baptist Church’s Wednesday night Bible study service with feelings of hurt and disappointment.
Several church members said they were praying for Pastor Jack Schaap, who was fired from his role as the church’s leader Monday after allegations of an inappropriate relationship with a young girl surfaced.
Most declined to comment prior to the service and said they were praying for the Schaap family.
More than a thousand people filled the church during the Bible study, which was led by the Christian Law Association’s David Gibbs Jr.
Heartfelt “amens” were spoken throughout the crowd as Gibbs vowed to fully investigate the scandal that left many shaking their heads.
He asked anyone who may have any additional information to bring it forward to the church immediately.
Abuse experts and former members are urging people to not go to church authorities but to go directly to police.
It is extremely unusual for leaders in the closed system of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists to take the step of going to authorities with information and issuing a press release.
Church officials told media Wednesday it was unlikely that charges would be filed against Schaap for his involvement with the underage girl.
Church spokesman Eddie Wilson said the girl is 17. The age of consent in Indiana is 16.
“There has been a lot of conjecture regarding the girl in the press,” Wilson said, adding that the girl and her family are church members. He said she isn’t a student at the Schererville-based Hyles-Anderson College, where Schaap was the chancellor until he was relieved of his duties. “We don’t expect charges to be filed against him (with regard to statutory rape).”
Oh. That opinion may be different in the morning. That there would be misconduct isn’t a surprise to people knowledgable about the IFB movement, it was that Hammond First Baptist Church contacted police and fired their superstar.
While news outlets have been all over this story, the best information and background is out on forums and blogs.
Stuff Fundies Like helped get the news out with this post and in it’s forum under Fundy News and World Report. The Fighting Fundamentalist Forum thread Hyles-Anderson College has been going none stop. Conservative Babylon has a concise round up of news reports, online chatter and the scramble by First Baptist Hammond to scrub it’s web presence of anything Schaap.
Columnist Mark Kiesling isn’t hiding his scepticism. Jeri at Blog on the Way who has helped abused IFB men and women says that the unprecedented step of church leadership going to authorities is a CYA move.
And yes, a lot of us are sure that the sudden helpful, transparency policy of FBCH, a church with a history of stalking and harassing child victims of sex abuse and their families, is traceable right back to the Jerry Sandusky and Penn State case.
Please don’t make saints out of the FBCH deacon board. That church has covered a multitude of sins against children and women. Schaap should have been rebuked and expelled long ago.
Jeri doesn’t mince words, which makes sense when going up against the IFB legalistic sub-culture. Blog on the Way is a good place to start if you want to learn about the Independent Fundmentalist Baptist movement.
Update: 24 hours later and no news of an arrest. Interesting the church spokesman said police”the church does not expect there to be charges filed in the incident,” a FB IFB former member says Schaap is in custody according to a police source and police say an investigation is ongoing.
A couple more interesting links – Stuff Fundies Like has the audio of the church meeting up and a sobering explanation of the lawyer brought in by the church; ‘the fixer’. The Wartburg Watch has a video of the 10th anniversary of the Schaaps ministry at First Baptist Church Hammond. Mrs. Schaap speaks at the end of the video, her demeanour and remarks are sad, especially in light of the events in her life the past two weeks. chucklestravels has advice for anyone who has been abused at First Baptist Church Hammond – do not go to church leadership or the lawyer the church brought in, explaining why it is important to go to outside authorities.
The FBI confirmed the agency is investigating – Schaap was interviewed Wednesday.
Details about the girl emerge in news reports. The under-age girl was meeting with Jack Schaap for counseling because she had been sexually abused. Check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTLYpIbPgQE
Hope they throw the book at this predator preacher…
It took the deacons 8 days to have meetings, confront Schaap, fire him and go to police.
8 days.
In the 7th day, god rested. That is why it is called the sabbath. When this abuse alleged happened, god is at rest. Amen.
I went to the two ‘Do Right Hyles Anderson’ Facebook pages when Schaap’s custody was announced, and said it was not yet being reported by the major news outlets. It still hasn’t been verified.
As a former First Baptist member and Hyles Anderson student, I’ve watched scandal after scandal rock the IFB world, and each time, I wept. I left legalism behind a long time ago, and pray that when a new pastor comes in, he cleans house, and brings in some accountability.
A new facebook group got started this week and it appears that there are other victims. Check it out…https://www.facebook.com/groups/210248275769396/
Just goes to show everyone,,,,these things happen in other institutions but never, never at PBI.
Not.
Having graduated from HAC in 1985 i well remember Schaap and was there the day Dave hyles left for Texas. I have never held any real allegiance to the place. I do have knowledge of many instances where they and others have covered up sin. Shame on them. When the organization is put over what is right there is a problem. The church should suffer because they are guilty of worshipping man.our eyes should be on Jesus and Him alone.
Nah. Nothing ever happened at PBI. Please make a note of that. The devil made them do it, but no body ever raped anyone. Or sexually abused the little girls, or boys. Or that there are gays right on the campus. god forbid all that. Amen.
The age of consent in Indiana is 16. But, it is illegal to have a sexual relationship with someone who is young if you are in an authority position, such as a pastor,teacher, or coach. I live in Indiana and there was a story a year or so ago about a woman teacher who had a relationship with an 18 yr old student. Since the student was still in school she was charged with having a sexual relationship with someone she was over in school.
This church needs to do some real house cleaning. Jack Hyles was a creep who cheated on his wife with a secretary, and was blatant about it. It’s time for judgment to come from the house of God.
I have to ask. Is there a fundamentalist pastor that is not fornicating with his children, parishioners, or his wives?
Ben, I only have one wife, and we don’t fornicate. We enjoy a happy life together. Four kids are the result. The vast amount of pastors are good people. The problem is you only hear about the weasels because weasels sell ratings and newspapers.
Thank you sir. My question pertains to those who do. I think highly of anyone who lives a life worthy of the human calling. As for those who live lavishly, fornicate and abuse others, I sure hope there is a god to take them in at the end. Remember, I am a deist, but I sure hope this makes sense to those who lost hope like I do.
i think it is time the designer took some of the blame for an overly-complex product. engineering science knows that complexity is difficult to manage. yea, the 3B long DNA chain keeps everyone unique so that we never get bored looking around at all the different things. but then things get out of whack, and watch out. the world is a beautiful place, but it is also a brutal place. an the human can be very cruel. and his herd instinct allows asshole organizations like IFB to come into being. and then idiotic quaint reasoning to blame the devil for making him do it.
Very happy to see that someone is reaping what they have sown in this lifetime. Don’t know what that makes ME….other than ….happy! What a phony creep.
Megachurches pilfer members from smaller, less competitive churches to swell their numbers disproportionately and give the impression that the faith is healthy and growing – however this is an illusion. When pastors of these giant churches fall into sin huge numbers of adherents are adversely affected. I’ve attended two or three large congregations where the pastor either ran away with the wife of the music director, made off with tens of thousands of dollars, or split the church with a trifling personality clash with the associate pastor. It’s almost inevitable.
It has nothing to do with reaping what you sow – it has everything to do with the fact that these are ordinary men, who are delusional enough to believe they have somehow been “changed” by a higher power.
My friend AtheistAtBirth:
I could not agree more than what you’ve said. You are a sincere dude, and may your own god/powers that be/your own higher moral guidance help and bless your every move!
I was raised a fundamentalist, at the Glad Tidings Temple, the original woman pastor had a homosexual controversy, and Duncan could be a drunk, who knows, and Shepherd made it off with the church when I was there. Most of those people I knew back then got washed out. They could not keep up with the economic changes in the area, and were off to a cheaper suburb. Did god save them from their troubles? I do not think so; that is the truth. Much of what brano/Susan and other lovely folks said, is always in the future tense. That is, they HOPE their god would do something later, but right now we cannot demand him to do a thing. Once I switched from the future tense to the modern tense, omg, that made the whole world better and the view is clearer. This is why you have these faithfuls of this xtianity defending a god who is not there. Maybe we can hold a pity party for them. Have mercy on them, for they know not what they do. Amen.
LBC … May your tribe increase.
Lest we get into a mutual admiration society may I simply add that your points of view are a refreshing change from the (astutely noted) future drivel we’ve been suffering with from Brano, Susan and a few others.
I come from old style Pentecostal/Word of Faith/Nazarene/Vineyard/Independent roots. After a few decades of disgusting behavior from pastors, deacons, elders and brain-dead adherents of this (Christianity) ridiculous non-functional religion, I did the smart thing and disassociated myself with it, and it’s horribly embarrassing behavior. I continued to believe in a deity for a long time, but after I retired and had unlimited time to study the bible – I came to the sad conclusion that Christianity doesn’t, and never will work, because it simply isn’t possible that a sane god could have been responsible for the bible. Christians in general are horribly educated about the bible. Only 10% have ever read completely through the book.
Little wonder we have such ill-informed commentary at times.
That lack of knowledge is exactly why it is so easy to control and manipulate some of them. And why it has been possible for some of those in leadership positions to get away with criminal acts and still be defended by their flock.
@flcn
Jack Schapp might be interested to have a few atheists and agnostics in his church to teach bible.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
One of the most intriguing aspects of the book is it’s built-in immune system. Worldly knowledge is discouraged, and described as dangerous. Thoughts are to be controlled and put into subjection. The book is laced with fearful punishments for straying from the course, for questioning authority, and daring to think outside the narrow confines of the book. It’s a masterpiece of mind control. Absolutely brilliant from an evolutionary point of view (Survival of the fittest).
Ever watch Brano when he runs out of ammunition? He threatens you with hell, or horrible punishment, or eternal damnation of some degree or other. That’s all they have. Pastors like Jack use the very same methods to control the flock – no one must question the anointed one – no one can use common sense or judgement. You must listen, obey and keep your mouth shut. Even when the pastor is caught diddling a teenager, the flock must shut up, and pray for his redemption.
The book is friggen brilliant! You can sin and never be held accountable. You can refuse to learn science and be called wise. It’s absolutely the best little piece of literary control ever written. and when you are questioned about your faith, pastors teach the flock to cry “persecution”!!! I love it!
But when Christ
Let me add to AtheistAtBirth’s point here.
I have read the entire bible several times, and memorized great portions of it in the King James Version. I used to be a student at the Glad Tidings Temple, and suffered under the infamous A.C.E. curriculum. What a piece of crap. I had no friends, and the materials were not even provincially accredited.
After reading extensively of the Dominionists such as Francis A Schaeffer, and had a college biblical Hebrew course in Genesis, the more I see in the bible, the less I cann accept it. Much of it came from a stone age culture, reflecting much of the violence, and hatred to women and homosexuals. There are passages of massive genocides that no one can justified today, and I dare any Christian apologist trying to make sense of killing everyone in the damnable Canaanite towns, supposedly there were Israelite invasion and Exodus (none of it can be found by archaeologists). I would like to hear the explanations of how a god of so much love, able to crush any little insects and babies, drowned them, and burnt them and still trying to be a nice god. It is a brain dead question.
This is probably why when a small child is sexually abused by a powerful preacher like Schaap, people look no further than their noses. They know instinctively that no one will ever help that child. The only thing we can do, is to look away,. since god might be upset with some of their comments and thereby punish them instead. This is totallly crap. None of it is true, and if god can hear me, come quickly and help the victims first, apologize to those who perished without its help, and come forward and kowtow for keeping his slaves-servants this way without striking them down immediately.
As I said before, I do not need a future tense explanation. I need the explanation and action NOW, in the present tense. Amen.
was jesus’ 40-days-in-the-desert a suicide attempt? because no sane person would do that. and 40 days w/o water? science says one dies of dehydration after 3 days w/o water. but suicide is the dirty word. so heaven forbid that we take this account and call it for what it is–insanity. i am ready to attempt it. but my siblings–all raised in the fundamentalist conservatist bent–will notify the authorities if i so much as hint at it. and who is to say that i am not led by the same holy spirit, since i was “born again”?
Yes, it’s based on future, and past. The present, and nearly 2,000 years of recorded church and Christian history, falls through the cracks.
The best way to sell a lie is to mix it with truth. Doesn’t it seem suspect that it took nearly until 400 a.d. for the Bible to emerge? This is historic fact:
At the Council of Nicea in 325 a.d. basic Christian doctrine was decided, in the midst of political in-fighting. Then the VATICAN – Pope St. Damasus I – took FIFTY-SEVEN YEARS to put together the Christian scriptures, finally issuing the “approved” writings in 382. a.d. He approved 73 books. Over a thousand years later, Martin Luther excised 7, and the other 66 REMAIN TO THIS DAY the revered Protestant Bible – ORIGINALLY DECIDED BY A POPE.
When I learned Christianity in Conservative Baptist circles, then at PBI, I was taught that the Pope/Vatican is the antichrist. So finally many years later I stumbled across these HIDDEN historical facts about the ORIGIN of the Bible and realized that, according to these teachings, the ANTICHRIST had determined the contents of the Bible.
ALL PROTESTANTS should be made aware of the history of their own Bible. For such as the infamous IFB, knowledge of this hidden history would reduce the numbers following a cadre of “leaders” who abuse the abused who come to them for help. For shame. Words fail.
Angelyn .. Amen
Angelyn,
God uses people to accomplish his will. Why should it surprise you that it took time to compile the Bible into a single volume? Facts about the manuscript variability and compilation of the Bible have never been hidden – it’s just that most people don’t care. For the same reason, most people never bother to understand what it *actually* means that time is the “fourth dimension”. That is, they never learn the four-vector approach to Special Relativity. Why? They don’t care or they are not academically inclined enough to capable of such an endeavour.
Bart Ehrman has spent his neuronal ATP creating conspiracy theories around this. But it isn’t really true. Textual criticism has existed for a long time.
holy men of god spoke, not wrote, as they were moved by the holy ghost. yes, a lot of folks do not care. but there is too much confusion amongst “the brethren” when talking about the “word” and not making the difference between logos and scriptures.
Hi, Dan. Point well taken regarding the time element, which isn’t the “point” insofar as the *source* of the recognized body of Christian scripture is concerned.
Actually, the greatest “aha” moment for me came long before when II Cor. 3:6 sunk in – “The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.” Perhaps the “spirit” in this context is the logos referenced by highrpm?
According to ancient history most people could not read or write. The ones that could would be highly esteemed. They were the scribes and teachers. Usually their positions would be of great importance. Great care was given to the dictation of God’s word to scribes. In the Bible it indicates the written word was for the people. Some of the kings tried to leave God and His word out of the Temple. This way the written word could be read to the people. Thus our prophets murdered for God’s word.
I think would agree with Angelyn here. A lot of what she says and what Erhman says resonates with me.
We were all raised with the notion that the word of god is perfect, without mistakes in it, when it touches on morality, history and the world. This is a battle for the mind, as LaHaye taught us. What I learned early on, is that modernity attacks the word of god and these evil men were trying to distort and destroy our faith, and these germanic theologians came up with scriptural and textual criticism and documentary hypothesis, as Bultmann tried to demythologize the gospels and this European teaching began to infiltrate this continent in the late 1800′s. Then the battles raged in the seminaries and denominations for a long time. Those lost the war, retreated, left their denomination and seminaries and formed new ones. In the thirties, after the Scope’s trial, these folks who held onto the supernatural explanations for the bible and their faith were ridiculed in the public eye, they retreated further, and formed their schools, and hope never had tobe ridiculed in the public eye again. I came as a result of this, ACE/Christians schools were formed because modern science began to critically look at Genesis account. Most of these sincere believers were disturbed that this world is not made in 6 days and more than 6000 years. Mistakes in these Genesis accounts were thought of as evil men and the devil trying to destroy the word of god.
Fundamentalists were born when their faith was demythologized, and these folks were angry that men were actually studying the word of god ad critically reflect that content with the knowledge that we have accumulated. These folks cannot be reasoned with, since the first response is anger.
Erhman belongs to the category that critically reflect on his faith, and his study of the New Testament led him to conclude that much of it, is fake or forgery. It is filled with mistakes as the contents of the gospel do not match, and the details have been changed easily from author to author, so that we cannot be sure where Jesus was born, no record of the taxation of Augustus, or the child story in the temple, or details of the crucifixion or the resurrection. None of these major event match with the 3 synoptic gospels, and Johannine Gospel is deliberate about creating a totally different Jesus with long prayers and teaching that is out of context with the other three. Jesus in the Pauling letters (many of which are forgeries) is different, and cannot correlate with Synoptic Gospels.
This led me to conclude intellectually, that our original ‘plenary verbal inspiration theory’ and ‘inerrancy’ are false and cannot be substantiated. Once I reach that conclusion, I can study the word fo god much better, and honestly.
Most of the folks here who support the inerrancy also support the fundamentalism (supernaturalism, such as creation/virgin birth/miracles/2nd coming). Their response is same as what I would do in the past, anger and rejection of any modern reasoning. That is why most of the evangelicals cannot survive in the regular high learning, and they have to form their own schools. It is as if they have to especially shield their own children from modernity, from sciences as we know it, and from people like Erhman who are scholars in this field. It is because in their deck of card, the argument against them is so great, that when kids come into contact with this, this faith in this form cannot survive. So their children after going to a regular college/university, often fund this bundle of faith restricting, unreasonable, and force them to be intellectually honest about the possibility of the inerrancy being false. Once that is reached, there is no going back. Faith is a metaphysical science, and cannot be substantiated as the fundamentalist asserts. None of the major biblical accounts can be substantiated by modern science, ie. no sign of divine creation, flood, exodus event, or event he resurrection, ascension , or virgin birth. And the miracle of the bible as it is formed by god, well, Angelyn nailed many times, it is a work of men , even the men we used to despised as antichrist. These books were easily taken out, excised, or added passages (the I John passage on trinity), or omitted (such as Erhman points out many times), or altered, or changed. I mean the theory of inerrancy cannot survive when we examine the word of god cirtically.
This leaves one last weapon, the evangelicals claim that it is true because they know it is true, it resonates within their spirit that god speaks to them, have an intimate relationship with them. Well, so are the Mormons, and every other religious in the world. This innate veracity of their faith, is no proof that it is real. It merely is a psychological state of the mind. It cannot be true, because according tot he claims of the Christian faith, only theirs is the right one. But I ask, which one? Catholics, Orthodox, the fractured protestantism? Which one? Even the evangelicals freely disagree among themselves who is saved, or how, and how secure is their salvation? And this American faith is different from the faith overseas, and while our faith is married to a political ideal (ie the republican Religious Right, or Dominionism), it is just what it is, a mutant of the original faith. This is also pointed out by Angelyn.
Much of the problems here about sexual abuses of this faith can be traced to a man who is an alpha male, and as such, with power over a large herd of human animals, he has to authenticate his sexuality. So the young young were his prey, and he does so without any problem since this is in his blood. Can god come and save the little girls under him? I do not think so, but a theory to explain this, and to actively remove ourselves from his domain and to actively expose and prosecute these folks, will save others. Can god come and judge this type of animals? I do not think so, I think we are. So in the pursue of a just world we are creating a better society. This is where Ps 82 is critical to my theology. That we are God, that we act justly and in so doing we all can be the sons of the Most High. What is that Most High? It is in the ideal to do the right thing. That is God. This where I must challenge those who are born again and again, and those who have a relationshiop with god. First come clean with us about your notion of justice. Do the right thing, come out of your hiding, read and study the word of god and admit that much of its violence and sexual violence therein, is harmful for modern society. Accept gay folks and treat them fairly, accept women as equals, not less than equals, and prosecute the sexual animals that damage society, and not to wait for god to do something about it. Tear down large churches. Give that money back to the adherents. Stop the special status in society, rather , churches should not be exempted from paying taxes and being a proper member of society. If you sell all your properties and give them to the poor and live in a simple and modest life. That is not far from the Kingdom that Jesus once taught. If that day comes, I can say, aha, thanks be to God, through our Lord Jesus Christ! And so, amen and amen.
LBC – It takes an ex-smoker to truly empathize with one addicted to tobacco, and an alcoholic to understand what it means to be addicted to drink; ex-gamblers truly feel at one for someone who cannot resist the urge, at any cost, to enter a casino. Ex-drug addicts know intimately the lure of the needle.
And ex-Christians are notably adept at understanding the mind of the fundamentalist. We know all too well that it is a constant war in that fundamental mind. Never truly knowing whether your actions will be good enough to save you, and being truly terrified of the advancement of knowledge, secretly knowing that one day it is going to completely, and totally pop the top off of the artificial world in which they are forced to live and adapt, and to expose your deity as a fraud even to you. Frightening indeed. We know – we former evangelicals used to live where you live.
Former Christians are typically those who were never reasoned into their faith in the first place, and eventually found that factual evidence and balanced reason awere refreshing paths to escape the mind traps.
Christians should not kid themselves. We (atheists and agnostics and freethinkers) do understand. One day we were like you – and we were patted on the back for having the same belief system. The next day we ceased to believe, and you thought us to be devils.
We are the same people, and no demon indwells us. We simply decided to ignore the fear and the social pressure to conform, and find out the truth. You are yet afraid to seek it.
We honestly could not care less to be insulted and told we’re going to hell. We have a sincere pity party going for you evangelicals still mired in the post-Scopes comeback. The tide is rapidly turning.
The information age has pulled back the curtains of shame and revealed more frequently the atrocious acts of your pastors which are now on public display, and your beliefs are open for public comment, criticism, and public scrutiny like never before. The emerging picture isn’t pretty.
Your religion can no longer hide in the margins and escape from analysis – eventually you are going to hear the world tell you they are weary of you crying “persecution” whenever another tower of faith falls from grace. They are going to ask you why your religion should not be subject to careful examination and comment like anything else considered important in your life.
AtheistAtBirth:
Very well put. I agree and empathize with you on all your struggles.
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I not an atheist but I am always amazed at how gullible and completely accepting Christians tend to be of anything that comes out of the mouth of a Christian Pastor.
Let’s face it..some are good, some have egos larger than New York State and want to control the flock from actions all the way to thought, while others are just plain nuts.
Some got their biblical training from a six week internet course or a hole in the wall unaccredited college in East Rubber Boot, MI. run by a few social misfits. Others studied hard for years to learn their ‘trade’ and have extensive training in human behavior.
But it seems to me that many of the Christians that I know lack some very basic critical independent thought when it comes to what some of these leaders espouse. I often wonder why that is because it certainly was not the case in the church environment that I was raised. It is almost as though those who questione the works or directions of a Pastor will sent one straight to Hell. What could be more unhealthy?
FJC, I went to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. You are spot on that pastors need to be trained. The problem is some in the congregation looks at the pastor on Sunday and says to themselves, “That ain’t nothin. I could do that”. People have lost respect for what the clergy does. We are to properly handle the Word of Truth and to instruct our people in godly living.
I’ve been a pastor for 11 yrs and have never been too successful. The churches I have pastored have grown some, but not a lot so that magazines and television shows are calling me for interviews. In my view, I am an ordinary pastor who God uses in a small corner of the world. And I am not alone. There are a ton of ordinary pastors who are not full of themselves. We are just trying to serve the Lord out of a heart of grattitude.
VanPastorman
And you will probably never make headlines being accused of molesting a child, making off with thousands of dollars of church funds, or divorcing your wife to marry a 20 year old voluptuary.
My pastor friends continue to do excellent work in the community and serve their congregations well. (Yes – I have friends who are pastors) Not everything about churches is necessarily wrong – we atheists can learn much from organized religion when it comes to beneficial social programs and the results of peer groups and their importance in a balanced view of life . But churches tend to be less appreciative of our nuances than they might be, due to some horrible writings centuries ago that Christians feel obligated to believe. We tend to be a bit sensitive.
Pastoring isn’t an easy job – it usually pays terribly, has horrible hours and an ungrateful audience. Anyone who pastors keeps their religion out of my face, and out of government, and keeps his dick in his pants, has my respect.
But Jeffery Lowder speaks for many of us in this article.
http://secularoutpost.infidels.org/2012/08/are-christians-best-argument-against.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheSecularOutpost+%28The+Secular+Outpost%29
Only things that can be sensed with the five senses are meaningful to discus. Therefore, all discussion about God is meaningless.
Logical positivism is based upon the verification principle, which states that for a statement to be meaningful, it has to be either true by definition or verifiable by one or more of the five senses. This means that all discussion about God should be considered meaningless. However, the verification principle itself fails its own test, since it cannot be verified by any of the five senses. It is a self-refuting principle, and, therefore, logically flawed.
Why, brano, you are full of surprises today! Although, I miss your “aheeem”…
“Anyone who pastors keeps their religion out of my face, and out of government, and keeps his dick in his pants, has my respect.”
I’m really glad you added that last line my atheist friend. I’d like to further add a few more criteria that it would take for me to respect a pastor:
- if he refuses to collect tithes or offerings to pay for salaries and buildings and programs other than to take care of the poor (as per Jesus and disciple’s example)
- if he demonstrates that he embraces the irrevocable intrinsic nature of homo/heterosexuality alike
- concedes that the facts of evolution stand presently irrefutable
- admits that the bible is fallible and full of mistakes errors and inconsistencies
- concurs that Christianity stole the plot, theme and characters from the religions of prior civilizations
- consents to the overwhelming probability that Christendom flourished and endured to this day all because of the stately power it wielded and subsequently forced upon the people of Europe and beyond.
- and finally, if he doesn’t claim to be an associate of Ray Comfort et al.
Yeah, I know. The Ray Comfort thing may be over the top.
Brano, what you said is about God and god is gibberish!
Brano ..
Piffle, dribble, and test tube nonsense.
….always most amusing to see the deists,taoists,maxists,atheists….cling together,as one happy family!
and the religious people supporting massive genocides, and god kills and drowns all his creation. Be a marxist and live! shake off these shackles of faith and live!
Dear brano,
I apologized to you once when you seemed to be offended, because I do not wish to offend anyone personally. However, beliefs are different. I do not apologize for any of my beliefs.
Joseph Campbell, the late great teacher and mythologist said something to this effect: Whatever is good for someone will always be evil for someone else. A body of belief is like that – individualized and unique to each person. That’s the beauty of being a human with brains and a unique life experience. The beauty turns to ugliness only when one’s beliefs lead to actions that impinge on others’ natural rights and freedoms.
Oh – you can add to your list, “spiritual humanist.” That doesn’t exactly describe me but it probably comes closer than the rest – though I never did like the limitations imposed by labels.
Peace, and all the best to you,
Angelyn
The Failure of Atheism to Account for Rationality
Aheeem…..
As a worldview, atheism is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with philosophical problems. In this video, let’s look at the inability for the atheistic worldview to account for rationality.
Now, I’ve already done a lot on this topic on the carm website and in videos. So I’m not going to get into this very deeply here. However, I can summarize by saying that atheism cannot account for rationality. You see, logic is based upon universal truth statements which we call the laws of logic. Such laws are, for example, the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, and the law of excluded middle. These universal truth statements are what rational arguments are based upon. If these additional laws changed depending upon the situation, location, time, or an individual’s personal preferences, then there is no basis for rationality and truth could not be known. Truth would then depend upon situations and personal opinions. If that were the case, then I could say that blue sleeps faster than Wednesday and whatever I say is always true because I claim it.
But, this is not rational and you and I both know that isn’t.
In the Christian worldview, the universal truth statements are derived from God. These universal truth statements, these laws of identity, are conceptual by nature. Why? Because they are statements. Statements require minds and since logic is the process of the mind, the logical foundations upon which rationality depends, is of the mind and is conceptual by nature. If the atheist were to say that logical processes are not of the mind or that the truth statements which are the foundations of logic are not of the mind, then he is being irrational. After all, truth is a statement which agrees with reality. And because truth is constructed in statements, a mind is required for such statements to be made.
Let me clarify. If a rock is all that exists in the universe, it is true that a rock is the only thing that exists. But saying that it is the only thing that exists is a statement which requires a mind. If there are no minds, and the rock is all that exists, no statements can be made about the rock. It would not be known that it was the only thing existing. But truth statements are known. Therefore, all such truth statements require minds and the universal, logical absolutes, truth statements that form the basis of rational thought, require a mind to be made and known.
Atheism has no way of accounting for these universal truth statements. Atheists can try and state that the laws of logic are based upon human minds, but this cannot be because human minds are different and contradict each other as well as themselves. Since logical absolutes are universally true, they cannot be the product of human minds because human minds are limited, are not universally true, and often contradict each other. If the atheist wants to say that the logical absolutes are merely descriptions of behavior of the universe, then how would an atheist, by observation determine the third law of logic, the law of excluded middle, which says that statements are either true or false? He couldn’t. If the atheist wants to say that logical absolutes are the result of chemical processes in the brain, that can’t work because it would mean that logic could be altered by brain chemistry. Some atheists say that logic is a product of human language, but that doesn’t work because languages are subjective and culturally variable where logic is not. If the atheist says that logic is a property of the universe like motion and gravity, the problem here is that you cannot measure the laws of logic where such things like weight, mass, heat, and cold can be measured.
So, atheists repeatedly try to respond to the issue of trying to account for rationality founded in universal truth statements also known as logical absolutes. But in all their trying and all their attempted logical outcry, they fail. Why? Because atheism doesn’t have the substance to account for rationality. It is deficient as a worldview.
But, Christianity comes to the rescue and states that the universal truth statements reflect the universal mind. We, as God’s creation, are able to recognize them because we are made in God’s image. Where Christianity provides an answer to this important issue, atheism clearly fails to deliver.
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http://carm.org/failure-atheism-account-rationality
Brano .. Best give credit to the author don’t you think?
Sure ain,t atheism.or deism,or bla bla bla…..FACTS speak oh so LOUD
Additional Information – Dispelling the Myths
Claims:
1. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. FALSE
Islam is neither the fastest growing religion in the world by precentage growth or real person growth.
2. Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in the world. FALSE
Although Buddhism is emerging in the Western world it is not the fastest growing religion in the world.
3. The world is converting to Islam faster than any other religion. FALSE
In terms of conversions Islam performs very poorly. The growth of Islam is attributed to higher birth rates in areas where it is dominant.
4. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world. TRUE
By real term growth, Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world.
How do you feel then about what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13 – “…narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be who find it.”
Then Jesus goes on to talk about wolves in sheep’s clothing. I don’t know how you feel about that or “pastors” like Schaap, or the girl he abused, brano, because I don’t recall that you’ve mentioned that. I do respect people who speak sincerely from their hearts and their own experience, and like AtheistAtBirth recommended, who give credit when quoting some other source.
Aheeeem,
I have a hard time with people who speak out of pure ignorance and don’t know,or think they know the FACTS/PROOF…..
From the statistics available we can cleary see that the fastest growing religion in the world in real terms is Christianity. Where Islam gains 23 Million new adherents annually, Christianity gained 30 Million new adherents in that same period. Thus, Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world.
In terms of the question of gaining the most religions by conversions, again that title goes to Christianity. By converisons from other religions, Christianity tends to be the most effective by a long shot with over 2 Million conversions followed by the 800,000 conversions recorded by Islam in that period.
Another interesting part of the article is the systematic destruction of some fake sources used by Muslims to claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
Brano, if you don’t have any original thoughts, other than quoting some CARM, I won;t bother arguing with you. Instead, has anyone read what Schaap actually teaches about god and sex? He says god and the lord jesus christ wants to have sex with us. Pardon me, that sounds very gay. Is god gay? Can he keep his zippers up? That is my question,. proving that xtianity, that it grows at the exponential rate, proves nothing. At one time, everyone believes the world is flat, and so does the church. At one time, every one believes that jesus was born of a virgin, now only the fraction of the Christians actually do. I think we should be honest to say that our Christianity is dying, and the only was it can survive, is in the third world where magics still work. Once they acquired enough knowledge and common sense, it too, is on its way out. Is there anyone out there will debate me that biblical moral value is actually for polygamy? Please, that would help me, and if anyone would debate me that god wants to have sex with us. That would be fine too, please, focus on the issue not the fetish. Thanks.
The FACT is,Christianity is the fastest growing religion on this planet! Period
Schaap,Bentley,Hinn….whatever,”Nothing new under the sun”…Regardless,the Beat of Christendom,Goes On,and on and on….
It is impossible to put the FIRE out!…Indeed,many have tried
Let us keep the FACTS straight about the fastest growing religion on this planet!
Let us not let our feelings,emotions,or silly notions, get in the way of FACTS
Aheeem
Brano, can you please understand English? I said, that Christianity is dying, and you have messed up the data. It ceased to grow here in the US, and they have created a theme park for this religion, and make the holy teachings of jesus into a joke. Jack was ‘jacking off’ during his preaching on the ‘Polished Shaft.’ Are you not able to comprehend the fact that if your faith is deviant and growing at the rapid rate, is that a good thing? Why not quote the edict of Milan or the adoption of Christianity by the Romans. Is that an age old argument or what. Try to focus on the Polsihed shaft and the fact the god wants to sexual intercourse with us. That is so gay. Amen.