Reynold Mainse, the OSC and Open Bible Faith Fellowship

Should someone have the rights and privileges of ministerial (ordination) credentials given by a branch of the Ontario government when that person is under investigation by another arm of the provincial government?

Reynold Mainse, son of David Mainse, founder of Crossroads Christian Communications Inc. is listed as an ordained minister by the Ontario Attorney General. He is licenced to perform marriages (Marriage Act 1990) and under Revenue Canada tax law, can claim a Clergy residence tax deduction.

As I’ve checked the ongoing investigation of Axcess Automation/Gordon Driver/Crossroads/100 Huntley Street online occasionally, I decided to look at the Ontario AG’s list in July and mentioned  at the end of an update post that Reynold Mainse was listed as an ordained minister in good standing with the Province of Ontario. The information has been eating at me, and I contacted the agency who extended the right and privilege of ordination to him.

Mainse is ordained by Open Bible Faith Fellowship. First, a bit of background.

Reynold Mainse, Axcess Automation/Funds and the Ontario Securities Exchange

In April 2009, it came to public attention that  the Ontario Securities Commission, the US Securities Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission were investigating an alleged 14 million dollar ponzi scheme run by Canadian Gordon Driver. Over 100 investors in Canada and the US were targeted by his Axcess Automation/Axcess Funds.
A timeline of the investigation, and documents is here.  Gordon Driver had worked for Crossroads, as had David Rutledge, a cousin of Reynold Mainse who was also named in the early documents.

Mid-May 2009, Ron and Reynold Mainse disappeared as hosts of 100 Huntley Street, the flagship program of Crossroads Christian Communications Inc. In June Crossroads broadcast a brief statement.  The on-air removal of founder David Mainse sons was covered by various media outlets, and Crossroads ordered a forensic audit to ensure that no viewer donations had been invested in the scam.  Crossroads board declared in July 2009 that the organization was clean.  Meantime it came to light brothers Ron and Reynold Mainse were being investigated as ‘finders’ for the ponzi scheme.
In August 2009, Reynold Mainse made a statement, shortly after the Crossroads board released this statement, and in October 2009, Ron Mainse was re-instated as a 100 Huntley Street host and Spiritual Director. Reynold Mainse made a brief 100 Huntley Street appearance around the Haiti earthquake and disappeared from public view again.

In August 2010, Ron and his cousin David faced the OSC regulatory music.

The son of 100 Huntley Street founder David Mainse and his cousin have been ordered to pay nearly $450,000 in restitution and penalties to the Ontario Securities Commission for their roles in an alleged Ponzi scheme created by a Freelton man.

Ron Mainse, an ordained minister and a leader of Burlington’s Crossroads Christian Communications, was ordered to repay about $138,000 in commissions he received from Gordon Driver, who is alleged by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission to be the mastermind of a $14-million US Ponzi scheme involving nearly 200 North American investors.

Mainse was also ordered to pay a $10,000 penalty and refrain from trading securities or becoming a director or officer of a company that reports to the OSC for eight years. Mainse’s lawyer, Jay Naster, turned over cheques for the entire amounts to the OSC at yesterday’s hearing.

David Rutledge of Ancaster, Mainse’s cousin and also an ordained minister, was ordered to pay back nearly $263,000 in commissions he received from Driver, pay a $35,000 penalty, and refrain from trading securities or becoming a director or officer of a reporting company for a period of 15 years.

Rutledge turned over a cheque for $90,000, has agreed to sell his Ancaster home to finance another $120,000 in restitution and will sign an undertaking with the OSC to repay the remaining $88,000.

What about  (Rev.)Reynold Mainse? His initial hearing with the OSC was scheduled for April 2011, along with Steven Taylor, a childhood friend of Gordon Driver. A decision about Mainse being an alleged Axcess Fund finder are not resolved. He is alleged to have brought in 22 investors to the tune of 4.1 million. He is alleged to have received a finders fee of over 210 thousand dollars.

The OSC investigation is far from over for Reynold Mainse. So why is he currently an ordained minister through the OBFF?

I asked, and the OBFF got back to me promptly.

Reynold Mainse and the OBFF 

I do not believe the OBFF (which handles about 500 ministers) was up to speed about Mainse and the OSC.

OBFF is now. That having been said, the OBFF answered that since the board of Crossroads Christian Communications Inc. put Reynold ‘in good standing’, that is enough of an endorsement for continued ordination.

Did the Crossroads board endorse Reynold Mainse  as being free and clear ethically and morally for ordination and employment?

No.

We are pleased that Ron Mainse and Reynold Mainse have taken the time away from Crossroads to process the issues around the current circumstances and are actively engaged in their own personal and spiritual journeys, before renewing their public ministries. They have the prayers, love, and full support of the Board of Directors. We would like to assure our partners that while this matter has taken some time to process, the process of the Board of Directors is, and will continue to be, preserving the integrity of 100 Huntley Street.

This statement is about the legacy of Crossroads – a forensic audit indicating that no Crossroad donor money was used to invest in the ponzi scheme. That employees, family and others around Crossroads who invested were broken, their finances drained and relationships shattered by the actions of the finders. The use of the charities money is the focus of this Crossroad board statement, not the Mainse brothers personal investments or  roles as finders.

The OBFF has to have a relationship of trust with churches and organizations which endorse people for ordination. The OBFF doesn’t have a researcher to check transcripts, employment and character of it’s applicants. While everything I’ve posted is public knowledge, it took some digging. I don’t believe the OBFF moved past it’s trust of others to do their own digging in this case.

The OBFF also stated their need to “respect the leadership of 100 Huntley  who endorses him.” (Reynold Mainse)

Look at this statement carefully from the 2009 board:

We are pleased that Ron Mainse and Reynold Mainse have taken the time away from Crossroads to process the issues around the current circumstances and are actively engaged in their own personal and spiritual journeys, before renewing their public ministries. They have the prayers, love, and full support of the Board of Directors.

Reynold Mainse has not finished processing the issues – the Crossroads board was aware in 2009 that the OSC is far from finished with him. I’ve prayed for Reynold Mainse to, but I wouldn’t endorse him for ministry while he is facing the OSC.

Another term for ‘in good standing’ is ‘covering.’  I don’t see how Reynold Mainse has the endorsement of the Crossroads board regarding the resolution of his ‘personal issues’ and it wouldn’t matter if he did.

Is employment cause for ‘in good standing’?

No.

Reynold Mainse is not employed by Crossroads.

I’m hard pressed to understand how he is under Crossroads ‘covering’.  Even if he was employed at Crossroads,  TV is a business – if Crossroads needed an engineer with specific skills it wouldn’t matter if he was an atheist or a zoroasterian, if a Christian isn’t available, they hire who they need.  If employment does put someone ‘in good standing’, this doesn’t apply for Reynold Mainse, by Crossroads own admission, he doesn’t work for them.

An endorsement by a father is not an endorsement by a board. David Mainse anger and hurt at media and blogs for covering his son’s involvement in the ponzi scheme is a matter of public record. Reynold is his son, and the heart and hurt of a father is not an indicator of ‘good standing’ with a charity board.

 

Reynold popped up on tv again May 29, 2012, during 100 Huntley Street’s Founders Week.  Starts at 5:02 and ends 6:27. Both Reynold and his father are careful to say he took pictures for his dad for a month, not that he has been working for 100 Huntley Street, CTS or with other Crossroads projects. If David Mainse paid his son Reynold for photos out of Crossroads money, does the Crossroads board know? Would that payment be considered ethical by donors?

Reynold Mainse has a photography business, called Mainse Media Group, which, ironically is endorsed by George Woodward, the Secretary Treasurer of OBFF.

 

At what point does OBFF become an enabling party to an unresolved investigation?

 

I don’t believe Reynold Mainse was not warned about his involvement with Axcess Funds. The OSC acknowledges in the settlement with Ron Mainse that Ron Mainse had misgivings. I find it difficult to believe the brothers didn’t talk about concerns. And while Crossroads operates in it’s own bubble, I find it difficult to believe people knowledgeable about investing didn’t sound a warning to Reynold. Would ordination be forthcoming if Reynold had been warned?

The OBFF believes Reynold Mainse lost his home as a result of his involvement with Axcess Automation/Funds and the OSC investigation.

This belief is concerning for a couple of reasons.
Yes, Reynold Mainse moved recently. However if ‘he lost his home’ there are a couple of possible scenarios:

a) he may have made restitution with one or more investors from the proceeds of his house sale, but if he did he would be compromising his defense. What about the losses of other investors he allegedly found, and restitution with them? The OSC is investigating, no lawyer would advise his client to do pay back some people he allegedly brought into the ponzi scheme and not all.

b) perhaps Mainse has handed the OSC funds (restitution/fines) as a goodwill gesture. Hence the house move. That is a possibility if there was been an admission of guilt that has not yet been made public. If there has been an admission of guilt, why is there an ongoing investigation?

c) selling a home could be done to protect assets as a preventative measure against OSC findings down the road. If the new home is purchased, it could be in his wife’s name. The new home could be a rental, assets could be under a trustee.  Divestment can also count against someone under investigation.

To believe Reynold Mainse ‘lost’ his home, opens up a can of worms for the OBFF.

Being an ordained minister is a privilege, and a calling, not a right.  Would a mainline denomination ordain a man or woman who is under investigation? If they did and became aware of an ongoing investigation, would that denomination suspend the ministers licence until matters were resolved?  The denomination could ill afford not to.
Accountability to the body matters,  clear and public demonstrations of consequences speak loudly.  If allowances are made, a door opens to all kinds of abuses.  Followers of Christ and the public deserve better.

Reynold Mainse is innocent until found guilty or cleared, but until then, why isn’t his licence under suspension?

The OBFF management and board have an opportunity to re-evaluate their ordination/licensing decision and do their own investigation.  Boards are tasked with diligence, to avoid all appearance of evil. When a secular agency like the OSC buckles down and does it’s job for investors and society, and followers of Christ lag far behind practising accountability, we are all the poorer.

About Bene Diction

Have courage for the great sorrows, And patience for the small ones. And when you have laboriously accomplished your tasks, go to sleep in peace. God is awake.
This entry was posted in 100 Huntley Street, Axcess Funds, General, Gordon Driver. Bookmark the permalink.

32 Responses to Reynold Mainse, the OSC and Open Bible Faith Fellowship

  1. fjc says:

    This is a very sad story for all concerned. I do not feel any sympathy for the Mainses.

    I reserve my sympathy for the luckless investors who were conned out of their savings, in some cases no doubt their retirement life savings.

    One issue has not been raised. Many church organizations are very, very aware of affinity fraud. So much so that they prepare their leaders-ministers, elders, etc. and recommend they do not enter in to, or promote, any financial investment projects while in a position of leadership and most especially do not enourage members of the church to do the same.

    The Mainses went well past encouragement…..they were getting commissions of 5 percent on every dollar they managed to attract. So, does their church organization have any guidelines for this and were these guidelines violated?

  2. Dave says:

    If you pulled the credentials on every minister for making a bad judgment, who would be left?

    I realize that he used his position to then influence others because of his position in ministry, but this is not a moral failure. This is just being gullible. And he admitted that.

    Now you want to pull his credentials? Why? Did he suddenly lose his abilities in those areas because he got gulled in the financial arena?

    Finally…someone want to point out to me where this notion of making a mistake means that you should be pulled down from your position as a leader? Wouldn’t it have been a better situation for someone like, I dunno, Ted Haggard to stay right where he was and work out the situation in the context of him being a leader? Or is that not feasible because Sister Thelma won’t give her weekly cheque for $5k if he is kept in the pulpit?

    I guess my question to you is this…does God throw you away when you mess up? Then why ask for this guy to be pulled from ministry, especially when the only thing he seems to be guilty of is being financially naive and a bit too trusting.

    Get a grip, man…

    dave

    p.s. Gordo took me for $5k…and I went in eyes open. No crying from me. That is a meager amount, and my wife and I both said we were “taking a match” to that money the minute we handed it over. Truer words never spoken.

  3. Bene Diction says:

    Not pull credentials – suspend the credentials until the regulatory matters are settled and if ruled, penalties paid.
    Why treat a man like a baby?
    Respect is about letting someone be an adult and be accountable and face predictable consequences for their behaviour.

    I’m sorry you were taken for 5 thousand. If you were aware you were taken, then you were further ahead than more trusting investors who didn’t see the end from the beginning. If you can afford to shrug off 5 thousand, good for you. Some investors losses caused serious hardship.

    You gave your trust and money to Gordon, you got burned. Maturity is weighing out whether you’ll be giving either to him again anytime soon. Fool me once… that is a God given survival instinct.

    I’m curious as to why you would invest with Gordon figuring you wouldn’t see that money again.
    I take it you didn’t try to get any friends to hand any money over to him.
    Why not?

    Mainse can earn money from his photography business until this is settled.

    God isn’t going to throw Reynold Mainse away.

  4. Bene Diction says:

    I don’t know that Crossroads had a policy (a lot of churches are putting one in place as awareness of religious affinity fraud grows. It is abuse and misuse of power, coercive; organizations are hierarchies and when a founders kid in a position of leadership approaches an employee, there is a power imbalance.

    Crossroads employees lost money at Crossroads with Clearnet. I don’t know why Crossroads didn’t put policies in place back then.
    And I don’t know how many people in their churches the finders roped in, or if the finders were in leadership positions.
    Having Reverend in front of you name sets you apart and above, even if you just sit in the pew. Hopefully the churches the finders attend or attended have policies in place now.

    I don’t know if Crossroads has policies in place.

  5. fjc says:

    So, does anyone here think that it is morally correct for a Pastor or a Church leader to promote investents to church members etc. and NOT disclose that they are in fact receiving a five percent finder’s fee on each dollar that they attract?

    This is what has happened and is happening-with the Maines’ and in many churches all over the country respectively.

    When I was in business we always had a ‘test’ for actions or deals. It was simple…would you feel uncomfortable or compromised if all of the information/data were made public. IF the answer is yes…then it did not pass the ‘sniff’ test.

    Maines’ actions would never pass the ‘sniff test’. IMHO, failure to disclose the commisions/financial interest was a very basic moral breach that should be acted up
    upon by their church organization.

    Excuses don’t cut it. We hold our leaders-spiritual and political-to a higher standard.

    These individuals clearly failed to meet this standard, or any standard as it pertained to this investment scam. I can well understand their aversion to the blogs. The facts surrounding this case are not pretty and are something to be ashamed of.

  6. brano says:

    This non sense has been going on for many years!
    Businessman allegedly claimed God sanctioned his venture

    John DeVries, a prominent member of the New Life Church in Kelowna, pressured church members into investing in an ill-fated business by claiming the investment had been endorsed by God, the B.C. Securities Commission has alleged.

    BY THE VANCOUVER SUNMAY 6, 2006

    http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=62d8f64d-df46-4d7c-8940-383b2cf0cb67&sponsor=

    Jesus Christ never commissioned His personal disciples to teach His followers to preach the Gospel for money, or to build buildings, …..

  7. AtheistAtBirth says:

    Cash for gospel is a perfectly acceptable practice. Not all preachers view the Gospel as a money making business enterprise, but the unspoken motto of the majority of evangelists and preachers today is “WE WORK FOR COLD HARD CASH” and we accept most major credit cards.

  8. The Lord Ben Chung says:

    They promise the sweet pye of heaven, and pay no taxes. I sure hope there is a god out there.

  9. Angelyn says:

    Dave, from what I’ve read here, your assessment: “the only thing he seems to be guilty of is being financially naive and a bit too trusting” just may be a better description of yourself than the Mainses. I too am sorry you and your wife lost the 5k. “…meager amount…” Really?

    What was done to you and numerous others was opportunistic at best, dishonest, theft, larceny, “affinity fraud” at worst. And the congregation should trust what they say from the pulpit as representative of God without skipping a beat? Really?

    A suggestion to merely suspend credentials until the matter is settled is quite, um, generous, if I understand the facts correctly.

  10. AtheistAtBirth says:

    “If you pulled the credentials on every minister for making a bad judgment, who would be left?”

    … and this is bad – why?

  11. fjc says:

    This goes beyond bad judgement.

    He had a duty of care to tell the investor that he had a personal financial gain in recommonding the investment. This would have shed a completely different light on the situation. It changed from being a friendly recommendation to being a business arrangement. This, by the way, was the essence of the OSC charge….essentially selling (by way of securring a commission) securities without a license.

    The sheep were ready for shearing and they got fleeced.

    Worse still, those same people probably view the Mainses as victims. They were not. Had they not been caught, they would have been beneficiaries.

  12. cricket says:

    Dave:

    As a former licensed funeral director in Ontario there was NO wiggle room for any impropriety, so much so that we were warned upon licensing that 40% of us would be before the Board at some point in our career for disciplinary action. That was after 1/3 of the class failed to graduate.

    So why should minister’s be any different?

  13. Bene D says:

    Excellent points fjc, thanks.

  14. Angelyn says:

    I too am licensed – licensed clinical social worker. If one of us did something like this we’d lose our license for life and that would be the least of it. Facing the consequences of the law would swiftly follow.

    When I was a kid our pastor died suddenly in his sleep and when the books were looked at it turned out his relatives were all on the payroll. His favorite sermon, once a month, was “bring ye all the tithes and offerings into the storehouse.” Same ol’ same ol’.

  15. brano says:

    Security commission will give a slap on the wrist,say bad boy and maybe a small fine of 5000.00???..or less
    I would rather get fleeced at the CNE,at least it is fun!,and I choose how I wanna get fleeced….Aheeem

  16. fjc says:

    No actually, the security commission did more that give them a fine. They were all given an option. Pay back every cent in commission that you ‘earned’ or face immediate prosecution. Some have paid, others are in the process of paying.

    So essentially, according to the above, they obtained $ 826,000. ( $450K+138K + 238K) in illegal commissions. These commissions represent a total of $ 16.2 million dollars stolen from these ‘friends and admirers’.

    What I really found despicable was that during a Huntley Street interview they referred to these illegal commissions not as commissions but words like ‘……we received a share of God’s blessings’. Not once did they admit any culpability-they were too busy playing the victim role.

  17. brano says:

    The Good,The Bad,The Ugly…..that’s life

  18. Dave says:

    Well…interesting discussion.

    I didn’t mean to make it sound as though $5k is nothing to me. That being said, in the world of investing, it really isn’t a lot of money.

    But, my situation was coming in AFTER all of the stuff hit the fan. I read everything that was on the Net about the situation, including the statements made in the court, including emailing Steve Buist at the Hamilton Spectator, and including emailing some of the 100 Huntley participants to help me assess the situation. I was a friend of Gordon Driver’s, and I knew him leading up to this situation and was frankly shocked by the allegations and whatnot. So, as his friend I reached out to him, started speaking to him about it all…tried to get some context.

    So…all this to say…I wasn’t naive in the least. I knew this could go bad. I knew that one day I could be on this side, and I take full responsibility for my actions and don’t think a thing about it. To tell you the truth, I am not even mad at Gordon. I kind of miss him. He is a very likable guy, and truth be told…I feel sorry for him. (I am sure that doesn’t go down too well herein…but there are reasons for that).

    I won’t delve too much into it…but from what I understand, the phrase “ponzi scheme” is sometimes in the eyes of the beholder in that legitimate businesses often look very much the same as what we have come to know as a ponzi scheme (where someone forthrightly cons people out of their money for their own gain with no desire or intent to make good on the promises they made to solicit those funds.)

    That isn’t this. I think that Gordon is guilty of some things, I do not believe he had forthright intent to swindle.

    But the Internet age is one where nuance, degrees and shades are not something people want to hear. They hear “ponzi scheme” and they immediately think this was a conniving huckster selling snake oil to unsuspecting rubes. And to suggest that the truth is much more complex and wiggly…well, who has the time to listen to that?

    Same thing for your desire to see Mainse’s credentials pulled. Let’s say he is guilty of ALL the things he is guilty of… so what? You think that is a reason to turf a guy from a job as the moderator of a show? He has been embarrassed to high heaven. He has said he was sorry. How is it treating him like a man to also take his job and cite spiritual gobbledygook?

    God’s people…mental…

    You think this Mainse situation is bad. You should try unraveling the stuff in the US where every leader of a church is the CEO, and good luck trying to divest them of all that they have built, … all in God’s name of course (cough, cough…).

    Just to answer your other question…no, I didn’t bring anyone in. I was the guinea pig. I could afford that money. When you gamble, and that is what we were doing, you do it with money that you can afford to lose. … not rent money. That is rule number 1 through 159. I would LOVE to see a list of people that were taken or even hear from them. I was told that most of them received a lot of the money back in dividend statements. But again, I don’t know. And for the record, neither do any of you until you hear from someone that actually lost something in this situation.

    Dave

  19. Bene D says:

    Dave:

    “To tell you the truth, I am not even mad at Gordon. I kind of miss him. He is a very likable guy, and truth be told…I feel sorry for him. (I am sure that doesn’t go down too well herein…but there are reasons for that).”

    I feel sorry for Gordon too…and even more so for his family, and for investors.
    I don’t believe Gordon Driver can or will stop, denial is a terrible taskmaster.

    I’m sure you’ve read the documents. $9,562,488.00 in restitution is not an arbitrary amount the court pulled out of it’s hat.

    “I do not believe he had forthright intent to swindle.”

    No intent to swindle does not mean swindling didn’t take place. No intent or intent: over 100 people got hurt. That doesn’t factor in their loved ones. If you look at the original CFTC document, investigators wanted Gordon Driver stopped. CTFC Original complaint May 14, 2009. The facts are not in dispute, the rulings have been made. Dave, you read the records, there were wilful acts of deceit.

    “Unless restained and enjoined by the Court, Defendants are likely to
    13 continue to engage in the act and practices alleged in this Complaint and in
    14 similar acts and practices as more fully described below.”

    Gordon Driver is back in business btw. I’m hoping to get around to updating with a post soon.

    “Same thing for your desire to see Mainse’s credentials pulled. Let’s say he is guilty of ALL the things he is guilty of… so what? You think that is a reason to turf a guy from a job as the moderator of a show? He has been embarrassed to high heaven. He has said he was sorry. How is it treating him like a man to also take his job and cite spiritual gobbledygook?”

    What spiritual gobbedygook? You lost me.

    Where and when did Reynold Mainse apologize?
    When and where did he say he was wrong and he was sorry?
    At best he said he was shocked, saddened, and filled with regret.
    He used the word remorse which can mean regret or pity.
    For all I know, it’s self-pity.
    True remorse means owning up, confessing, making restitution and not doing something like this again.
    The OSC allegations are Reynold Mainse was responsible for bringing in:
    22 investors of about USD $4,100,000.00.
    Of that amount, $2,875,054.00 was given back by Driver as ‘return on investments.’
    Directly and through his organization World Class Communications, Mainse received
    $210,219.50 in commission.

    Decide for yourself.
    I don’t call this apologizing, most of us call this rationalizing, spiritualizing, intellectualizing and justifying.

    http://tinyurl.com/8v3k3w8

  20. Dave says:

    Bene D.,

    I am in agreement…swindling did go on. And I think you hit it on the head when you used the word “denial.” It is a very powerful thing, something that I have learned all too well over the last few years.

    When someone is so deluded that they think black is white and up is down … at what point do you have to factor in that they have deluded themselves into thinking that they aren’t actually doing what everyone else can so plainly see they are doing?

    I saw this movie called WHO IS CLARK ROCKEFELLER? about the guy who posed as one of the members of the family, and who spun a tale to any and all (including his wife) that he would not take his family’s money to do what he feigned as charitable work … but spent about 12 years milking his wife’s considerable wealth and living high off the hog under the auspice of the total fabrication of his background. When his wife started to get savvy to what he was doing, and started to do some checking about, the guy started to get mad…”Why are you doing this to me? Don’t you realize that all I am trying to do is help you. I did this all for you.”

    The greatest victims of these deceptions is the person who pulls them, because I think that in many cases, and I would vote that this is one of those cases, the perpetrator actually believes that he hasn’t done a thing wrong, that he was only trying to help everyone else. When someone who sees clearly looks at what is going on, it is obvious that the entire thing is a house of cards. But the person who has spun it…they have bought in.

    …and let me tell you, that is sad. Because before you can find peace in the midst of this self-perpetuated calamity you have to experience a “come to Jesus” moment where you get real about what you’ve done. That hasn’t happened here.

    But again, I stand by the statement that I do not think this thing started as an intent to defraud. I think it started with the best of intentions, and went further and further south until there was no recourse but to keep spinning the lies.

    As for the Mainses…they aren’t answerable to you. They are answerable to a board of people who decide these things. The moderator of a talk show is not a spiritual position in my understanding, regardless of whether you think they are a “church” or not. What he did was wrong…don’t you think he knows this? What words do you need to hear that will satisfy you? And who appointed you as the chief arbiter of whether he is truly repentant or not…? Honestly…show the guy some grace. He messed up. So freakin’ what. Let him answer to the 100 or so people that he brought in. You don’t think he doesn’t have to face them again? You don’t think that is torturous? You think he just waltzes past those people knowing that he brought them in to a scam and there is no remorse?

    I doubt it. That world is incestuous. They are all related. You think they now go to family picnics and he holds his head up and whistles Disney tunes?

    Not if he has any brains he doesn’t. (And I don’t know him to comment…so…).

    As someone who HAS invested in this…and HAS lost money…I don’t see why the Mainses are getting raked over the coals. Someone came to them with something that sounded good. They offered it to their friends and family who happened to be tied to the ministry. What is the problem with this? Where is the harm? Were those people somehow mentally deficient that they could not do their own due diligence, check things out for themselves?…or are these people idiots that are writing cheques left and right to anything that comes along?

    Nothing wrong with feeling sorry for the victims, but let’s be honest…they should have done better homework. I am not saying that they don’t have a right to be angry that there was fraud that went on. They do. And as such, they can ask the government to step in and try to recoup their money. But people have to take responsibility for their actions as well. Again…I have never heard from anyone who lost their shirts in this or bet the farm or is crying the blues over it.

    I forgive Gordon. I wish him well. Can you imagine having to live with this now? You think he is whistling Disney tunes too? Don’t kid yourself by thinking people get away with crimes of this (or any) nature. Nobody gets away with nothing, folks…sin has its affect upon the heart that commits the offense, whether we can see it or not. I think justice should run its course. I think the government should do what it is doing. I think the people that got taken should do whatever it is to seek out recompense. But it is only God that metes out true justice, and that is often unseen and unmeasurable.

    d

    d

  21. fjc says:

    How would you feel if you were one of the people who happened to loose thier entire life savings and retirement monies?

    Pretty stupid for actually believing these clowns when they said that they could attain 30-70 percent returns when the bank rate was 1 point.

    Pretty stupid for blindly following the advice of a Pastor…..whose expertise does not typically involve financial matters (unless it is tithing).

    Where I happen to live, unsuspecting folks are buying literally wheelbarow loads of Iraqi dinars. They are being told that it is a wonderful investment and that it was recommended by somene at their church. I only had one question….did you try to determine if you could sell them prior to buying any? Blank stares all around. They may make interesting wallpaper.

  22. fjc says:

    It brings a new light on Prosperity Preaching.

    Those that preach Prosperity and often making their money on the backs of those they are preaching to. It is a great gig if you have the stomach for it and have no conscience whatsoever.

  23. AtheistAtBirth says:

    @flc

    True words indeed. Wish I had taken this little bit of advice to heart during my WOF days..

    http://www.cultwatch.com/howpastorsgetrich.html

  24. fjc says:

    Yes, this Prosperity Preaching is nothing new.

    I was brought up in a Scottish Presbyterian home. We had prosperity preaching drilled into us but it did involve sending any money to any of these clowns.

    The message was far more straightforward and it was honest. It consisted of get a good education/training (and a professional designation if possible), work hard, live below your means, invest wisely and prudently, and take care of your family. It worked for us-it is working for our children.

    We ignore the other get rich soothsayers and those who say you will become wealthy by becoming our idea of a Christians and sending in your donations of course). Just think of how far that money could go if it were sent to the local food bank instead)

  25. fjc says:

    AtheistAtBirth….I read your attachment from Cultwatch.

    What I found interesting was comparing it to the data that is available publicly from the Crystal Cathedral Church bankrupcy documents and from some of the pubic details from litigation. The goings on at Crystal fit just about every one of the categories.

  26. brano says:

    What ever happened to good ole COMMON SENSE!?
    If it looks to good to be true…Aheem
    Non-Christian,Christian,Catholic,…it happens to all
    Interesting how that greed ,seems to be the “bottom line”

  27. fjc says:

    I agree about common sense.

    It is amazing that people actually risk their life savings, their retirement funds, and mortgage their homes to invest in something with someone they hardly know, invest in something they know nothing about, and invest in something that promises ridiculous returns and promises no risk.

    Go figure. But they do.

  28. Bene Diction says:

    As for the Mainses…they aren’t answerable to you.

    I agree, they are not answerable to me.

    They are answerable to a board of people who decide these things. The moderator of a talk show is not a spiritual position in my understanding, regardless of whether you think they are a “church” or not.

    Agree again.

    Reynold Mainse doesn’t work for Crossroads or a board.
    The closest board he answers to is OBFF, and that is only in regard to his credentials.

    I don’t do this so people can be answerable to this blog or me.
    I do this to give people information to make their own decisions.

    What words do you need to hear that will satisfy you?

    I don’t need satisfying. OBFF gave their answer, that was courteous of them and they are now in posssesion of public information they did not have. It’s their decision to do with it what they will.

    And who appointed you as the chief arbiter of whether he is truly repentant or not?

    Repentence has feet…actions. Since this isn’t over, I don’t know what repentence will look like. Given other ponzi schemes, other finders, we can have a fair idea.

    You think they now go to family picnics and he holds his head up and whistles Disney tunes?

    Ask people who go to their family picnics.
    Not addressing Reynold here – I take it you didn’t see the video David Rutledge did of Ralph Rutledges birthday party during the initial investigation. They weren’t whistling Disney, but they were partying up a storm. It was definitely a statement.

    I don’t see why the Mainses are getting raked over the coals. Someone came to them with something that sounded good. They offered it to their friends and family who happened to be tied to the ministry. What is the problem with this? Where is the harm? Were those people somehow mentally deficient that they could not do their own due diligence, check things out for themselves?…or are these people idiots that are writing cheques left and right to anything that comes along?

    This is getting raked over the coals? Hardly. Losing CCCC approval, or losing CRA charity status, or losing donors and viewers is getting raked over the coals.
    I explained my position. Crossroads is a charity, fed by donor money. If as an organization, safeguards are not in place and I point it out, to chide me for doing so is just shooting the messenger.

    And as such, they can ask the government to step in and try to recoup their money.

    Regulatory branches of both the US and Cdn governments have stepped in. I doubt there is much money to recoup, but the point is, they are doing their jobs. Are Christians acting ethically and compassionately? I don’t know if investors are actively seeking recompense.

    But people have to take responsibility for their actions as well.

    Agreed.

    Again…I have never heard from anyone who lost their shirts in this or bet the farm or is crying the blues over it.

    I did. Others have. I’m not going to make thier troubles public – that is their responsibility.
    To paint the Mainse brothers and cousin as only victims makes good tv and salvages an organizations reputation, but it is not the full story.
    I agree that the government investigations need to run their course. I agree people who lost can step up to seek out recompense I addressed that in another post.

    only God that metes out true justice, and that is often unseen and unmeasurable.

    Not only God, he does use people, ultimately He is the only one whose justice is ‘tzedek’ (morally straight).
    His justice can be legislative, rectoral, renumerative, or punitive. His justice is always merited.

  29. Dave says:

    Bene D. wrote “This is getting raked over the coals? Hardly. Losing CCCC approval, or losing CRA charity status, or losing donors and viewers is getting raked over the coals.”

    Why would you hold the entire place accountable for the actions of a few? You can’t police everything that goes on before it happens. What you can do is take measures after the fact and mete out whatever internal justice they can to make things right. They took the guilty parties off the air and did whatever they felt necessary.

    The only reason that you know about this is because the Hamilton Spectator decided to run the story with a slant that pulled in 100 Huntley…for their own purposes. There was no reason to run that story in the manner that it did, and it probably caused 100 Huntley a lot of damage that it did not have to undergo.

    …from what little I know about them, they are nowhere near the kind of dysfunction that goes on in American ministries. I still do not see what the big deal is here or why everyone got so lathered at 100 Huntley. Being a financial rube is not a spiritual offense.

    Too, I think many to most Christians suffer from a ridiculous notion that making money is a sin, as if the verse was worded “money is the root of all evil” instead of what it does say, that the “love of money is the root of all evil.” There is nothing wrong with making money, or trying to help your friends make money. What these guys did…why is this even being debated as being a problem? The only thing I can see they did wrong was to solicit funds for this sort of thing without a license. Big deal. File that under simply being naive, and it should have nothing to say to their spiritual lives whatsoever.

    And as for your interpretation of a video filmed at a family function…are they not allowed to have fun anymore because of this? Sackcloth and ashes forever more?

    Please…let them live. The feds will take care of the real problem. They cut these guys loose because they realized they were gulled. This story has one perp. Period. And he is selling smoke. And the Feds have meted out their position.

    …but for the rest of us, if it sounds too good to be true, it most definitely is. If a guy says that he can make millions, then he shouldn’t need you to pony up a thin dime. He should reach into his pocket for $10 and start spinning. Otherwise, he is a big fat liar. (I know you’re reading Gordo… a BIG FAT LIAR!!).

    I’m out…

    d

  30. Angelyn says:

    from the DSM-IV – Diagnostic Criteria, American Psychiatric Association (caps mine):

    301.7 Antisocial Personality Disorder

    There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by THREE (or more) of the following:

    1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
    2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
    3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
    4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
    5) reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
    6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
    7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

    301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

    A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by FIVE (or more) of the following:

    1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
    2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
    3) believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
    4) requires excessive admiration
    5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
    6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
    7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
    8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
    9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

  31. Pingback: Axcess Automation/Fund updates – Gordon Driver arrested, Reynold Mainse facing OSC ruling in November. Acted contrary to the public interest | Bene Diction Blogs On

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